UK Defence Forum

Well this does show that the UK can run a development programme effectively. The RN, other agencies and industry quietly just got on with it at with ARCIMS we are probably going to end up with a very flexible and cost effective unmanned system that will be a force multiplier for the RN. I would like to know how many could fit in the well deck of an Albion, as a guideline to capacity of the planned Multirole vessel that could replace both these and the Bays, forming the core of the LSGs as well as future amphibious operations. The ARCIMS with its water jets, manned option and its capacity could also be used to move troops from ship to shore in theory.

But in a typical British way, Atlas is being reward by the MoD for being so nice as to enter a bogus Type 31 bid so bolster the claim that the competition would have the world and Europe in particular, falling over themselves to enter.

Atlas may be being rewarded for its help in the T-31 competition but what they have developed working with the MoD is a pretty solid design with a bright future, and it works. If only certain land programmes were and fortunate.

My younger self, who was far more clued up on naval matters than I am now, would always hear about the Greenland-Iceland-UK Gap as important for ASW vs Soviet Union in Cold War days. Is GIUK Gap still important in these days of Russian Navy rearming and with longer range of Russian sub-launched missiles?

What sort of UK + allied force, in terms of Frigate + helicopters and land-based patrol aircraft, would be required to patrol it? If US is focussed on Pacific, would the USN still be assiting us in this? With declining escort fleet being increasingly tied up protecting the UKCSG'sare we still able to cover the GIUK?

What about UK ASW weapons? It looks like T23 had ASW Topedoes both ship mounted and helicopter, whereas the T26 look to have only helocopter borne ASW Torpedoes only. Could/would the UK use the Mk41 VLS for ASROC Missiles?

Thanks

wargame_insomniac wrote: ↑23 Nov 2021, 23:56 My younger self, who was far more clued up on naval matters than I am now, would always hear about the Greenland-Iceland-UK Gap as important for ASW vs Soviet Union in Cold War days. Is GIUK Gap still important in these days of Russian Navy rearming and with longer range of Russian sub-launched missiles?

What sort of UK + allied force, in terms of Frigate + helicopters and land-based patrol aircraft, would be required to patrol it? If US is focussed on Pacific, would the USN still be assiting us in this? With declining escort fleet being increasingly tied up protecting the UKCSG'sare we still able to cover the GIUK?

Just last September USN set up a new dedicated ASW Atlantic Destroyer Task Group Greyhound to hunt Russian submarines with four? Burkes, with the assistance of subs, P-8s and helos with the aim to counter the new Russian gen subs with their 1,000 nm land attack missiles and the long range torpedo with nuclear warheads.

Normally the Burkes main priority and train for AAW and BMD, would expect in future years will use the new Constellation class frigates whose primary mission is ASW. Full write up at

https://news.usni.org/2021/09/27/navy-c ... submarines>

NickC wrote: ↑24 Nov 2021, 10:46

wargame_insomniac wrote: ↑23 Nov 2021, 23:56 My younger self, who was far more clued up on naval matters than I am now, would always hear about the Greenland-Iceland-UK Gap as important for ASW vs Soviet Union in Cold War days. Is GIUK Gap still important in these days of Russian Navy rearming and with longer range of Russian sub-launched missiles?

What sort of UK + allied force, in terms of Frigate + helicopters and land-based patrol aircraft, would be required to patrol it? If US is focussed on Pacific, would the USN still be assiting us in this? With declining escort fleet being increasingly tied up protecting the UKCSG'sare we still able to cover the GIUK?

Just last September USN set up a new dedicated ASW Atlantic Destroyer Task Group Greyhound to hunt Russian submarines with four? Burkes, with the assistance of subs, P-8s and helos with the aim to counter the new Russian gen subs with their 1,000 nm land attack missiles and the long range torpedo with nuclear warheads.

Normally the Burkes main priority and train for AAW and BMD, would expect in future years will use the new Constellation class frigates whose primary mission is ASW. Full write up at

https://news.usni.org/2021/09/27/navy-c ... submarines>

Thank you - I had previously seen that article re the 4 Burkes but it had slipped my mind yesterday.
Cheers

It's seams that the war in Ukraine has force to open the gates of the dams in regards to the finances on same project . We have same news on the future Dutch-Belgian ASW frigates below .The Nr. of Mk41 vls is now officially 16 in both countries versions and is a return to the long version of the frigates as was for in 2019.

Not sure if this the right thread - please move if not.

https://ukdefencejournal.org.uk/huge-an ... -atlantic/

"NATO’s advanced anti-submarine warfare exercise, Dynamic Mongoose, will begin on the 13th of June 2022 in the North Atlantic."

Interesting development.

https://www.navylookout.com/the-kingfis ... -munition/

Another good reason for the T32 to have the Mk45

The S-100 is small...but it gives an idea of the space you need for the comms and datalink to communicate with the sonobuoys...

It doesn't explain how the sonobuoys got there though...be interesting to see what the S-300 is capable of in comparison.

Repulse wrote: ↑01 Dec 2022, 19:14 https://www.gov.uk/government/news/154- ... -submarine

I suspect the phrase "Unleash the Cetus" won't have the same dramatic effect as if it had been named after a different mythologival sea-monster. But interesting to see how Cetus will interact with MROSS for defence of UK's key undersea cables and other infrastructure.

If Cetus successful would definitely negate any potential need for convential SSK.

wargame_insomniac wrote: ↑01 Dec 2022, 19:38

Repulse wrote: ↑01 Dec 2022, 19:14 https://www.gov.uk/government/news/154- ... -submarine

I suspect the phrase "Unleash the Cetus" won't have the same dramatic effect as if it had been named after a different mythologival sea-monster. But interesting to see how Cetus will interact with MROSS for defence of UK's key undersea cables and other infrastructure.

If Cetus successful would definitely negate any potential need for convential SSK.

It isn't really a replacement for an SSK it won't have any offensive capability apart from possibly planting mines. It will loiter about keeping an eye on things and reporting back to base\mother.

tomuk wrote: ↑02 Dec 2022, 05:55

wargame_insomniac wrote: ↑01 Dec 2022, 19:38

Repulse wrote: ↑01 Dec 2022, 19:14 https://www.gov.uk/government/news/154- ... -submarine

I suspect the phrase "Unleash the Cetus" won't have the same dramatic effect as if it had been named after a different mythologival sea-monster. But interesting to see how Cetus will interact with MROSS for defence of UK's key undersea cables and other infrastructure.

If Cetus successful would definitely negate any potential need for convential SSK.

It isn't really a replacement for an SSK it won't have any offensive capability apart from possibly planting mines. It will loiter about keeping an eye on things and reporting back to base\mother.

True it doesn’t have an offensive capability, but it does have an interesting flexible payload section, so it’s a small jump to carry small offensive capabilities. These could be both lethal and non-lethal.

The biggest issue probably is the control required to determine whether a weapon should be deployed without a human in the decision chain. You could argue though that with a decent Friend or Foe system, and AI to rule out sea life, then anything it’s sees below the surface that it’s not expecting is a foe.

Repulse wrote: ↑02 Dec 2022, 07:44 The biggest issue probably is……

….when it ends up in the cod end of a trawlers net?

Repulse wrote: ↑01 Dec 2022, 19:14 https://www.gov.uk/government/news/154- ... -submarine

At 12 by 2.2 meters and 17 tons two of these could carried by and deployed by a River B2

Possible, but it would be a big trawler to catch something the size of a double decker bus and at depths up to 1,000m…

Repulse wrote: ↑02 Dec 2022, 12:58 Possible, but it would be a big trawler to catch something the size of a double decker bus and at depths up to 1,000m…

They’ve caught bigger submarines than that in the past….

Tempest414 wrote: ↑02 Dec 2022, 12:24

Repulse wrote: ↑01 Dec 2022, 19:14 https://www.gov.uk/government/news/154- ... -submarine

At 12 by 2.2 meters and 17 tons two of these could carried by and deployed by a River B2

How would it get such a heavy object on and off the ships safely?

SW1 wrote: ↑02 Dec 2022, 13:44

Tempest414 wrote: ↑02 Dec 2022, 12:24

Repulse wrote: ↑01 Dec 2022, 19:14 https://www.gov.uk/government/news/154- ... -submarine

At 12 by 2.2 meters and 17 tons two of these could carried by and deployed by a River B2

How would it get such a heavy object on and off the ships safely?

Just roll it of the stern. Splash!

SW1 wrote: ↑02 Dec 2022, 13:43

Repulse wrote: ↑02 Dec 2022, 12:58 Possible, but it would be a big trawler to catch something the size of a double decker bus and at depths up to 1,000m…

They’ve caught bigger submarines than that in the past….

The super trawlers aren’t the issue. My point was what happens when an unmanned sub ends up in a small trawlers net. Something like a 20m beam trawler.

It’s a mega dangerous scenario especially in a high sea state.

Poiuytrewq wrote: ↑02 Dec 2022, 15:42

SW1 wrote: ↑02 Dec 2022, 13:43

Repulse wrote: ↑02 Dec 2022, 12:58 Possible, but it would be a big trawler to catch something the size of a double decker bus and at depths up to 1,000m…

They’ve caught bigger submarines than that in the past….

The super trawlers aren’t the issue. My point was what happens when an unmanned sub ends up in a small trawlers net. Something like a 20m beam trawler.

It’s a mega dangerous scenario especially in a high sea state.

Yes the FV Antares was sunk with the loss of all onboard by a Royal Navy submarine in the firth of Clyde after it caught her lines.