Future ASW

Contains threads on Royal Navy equipment of the past, present and future.
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Dahedd
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Re: Future ASW

Post by Dahedd »

What's the issue with Giving the Wildcats a dipping sonar? It's already been funded & developed by South Korea so why not take full advantage of it. Likewise they are already sorting out Spike NLOS missiles on their wildcat so we should follow suit.

Seems stupid not to utilise the equipment & means the Merlins can stay with the carrier & the Wildcats go on frigates. Surely 2 aircraft backing each other up makes more sense?

Also instead of a V22 mpa (though I think its not a bad idea) could the new Zypher drones be of assistance. It wouldn't surprise me if the carrier's tend to have one acting as extremely high altitude surveillance.

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Re: Future ASW

Post by marktigger »

Dahedd wrote:What's the issue with Giving the Wildcats a dipping sonar? It's already been funded & developed by South Korea so why not take full advantage of it. Likewise they are already sorting out Spike NLOS missiles on their wildcat so we should follow suit.

Seems stupid not to utilise the equipment & means the Merlins can stay with the carrier & the Wildcats go on frigates. Surely 2 aircraft backing each other up makes more sense?

Also instead of a V22 mpa (though I think its not a bad idea) could the new Zypher drones be of assistance. It wouldn't surprise me if the carrier's tend to have one acting as extremely high altitude surveillance.
we're meant to be getting sea venom and LMM for ours eventually.

Aethulwulf
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Re: Future ASW

Post by Aethulwulf »

Dahedd wrote:What's the issue with Giving the Wildcats a dipping sonar? It's already been funded & developed by South Korea so why not take full advantage of it.
The range, payload and endurance of the Merlin is well matched to the detection performance of the Captas 4/Sonar 2087 system of upto 150km. The Merlin is able to carry a load of lightweight torpedoes out to such ranges and has the endurance to spend time hunting for subs with its dipping sonar, even in 40° C.

Wildcats can't match that.

They can carry 2 torpedoes, but with much more limited range and endurance.

Captas 2 has a detection range of 30 to 60 km, which is a better match for the Wildcat. However this puts you in the same ballpark of the ~50 km range of heavyweight torpedoes from enemy subs.

The Royal Malaysian Navy is fitting Captas 2 onto its new SGPV ships, which will operate with the Super Lynx 300. If the new Type 31 is fitted with a Captas 2 system (as some people are suggesting), there may be a case for the UK to fit dipping sonar to some Wildcats. But that's a big if.

Dahedd
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Re: Future ASW

Post by Dahedd »

Obviously the Merlin has better range, capacity, payload, sensors. But is it not a pretty good idea to heave a tiered system. Poseidon as outer layer, Merlin & T26 as mid layer, Wildcats & T31 as inner layer. If the tech exists & other nations use it then I don't understand the reluctance. Surely more redundancy is better.

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Re: Future ASW

Post by marktigger »

merlin, p8 an frigates should be able to data link to the wildcat to give it sensor data to work from

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ArmChairCivvy
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Re: Future ASW

Post by ArmChairCivvy »

marktigger wrote:merlin, p8 an frigates should be able to data link to the wildcat to give it sensor data to work from
Yep, and Poseidon needs an unmanned companion with better endurance. And the inner circle of helos raised on alarm include the Merlins "not on duty".
- unclear to me how many crews we have per "machine" - or do they spend so many hrs in maintenance that 1:1 is a fine ratio?
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rhodes76
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Re: Future ASW

Post by rhodes76 »

https://warisboring.com/the-u-s-navy-is ... .tglq55aan

thought this was relevant to the conversation on here

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shark bait
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Re: Future ASW

Post by shark bait »

An ASW protector UAV has been proposed, possibly work exploring to work alongside the P8.
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Dahedd
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Re: Future ASW

Post by Dahedd »

WOuld the high altitude Zephyr drones they plan to buy be any use. Is it possible to track the wake from an under water target from on way up high?

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shark bait
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Re: Future ASW

Post by shark bait »

I imagine it would be possible to detect a snorkelling sub, but no way could a submerged sub in the open ocean be found.
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bobp
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Re: Future ASW

Post by bobp »

Bearing in mind the altitude that the Zephre is operating at, detecting a snorkel and tracking it would I imagine be fairly difficult.

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shark bait
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Re: Future ASW

Post by shark bait »

Difficult yes, but not impossible, they're developing radar ect for the platform.

If its cheap enough to be procured in numbers a system of vehicles could be used to confirm contacts and increase detection chances.
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Re: Future ASW

Post by Ron5 »

US satellites have tracked submerged submarines from space. Submarine wakes do not completely disappear when they submerge.

Zephyr has a tiny payload so is very limited on what it will be able to do.

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ArmChairCivvy
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Re: Future ASW

Post by ArmChairCivvy »

In the RN context the following are considered to be proper ASW platforms: Merlins, Frigates, Submarines, and the soon to be P-8s.

So we got those MPAs for the price of one Astute (roughly). A merlin in isolation is not a "proper" platform as it needs to have a minimum £300m ship to give it reach and endurance. So, forgetting the Merlins that will go onto the carrier(s):
- an SSN 2 bn
- a minimum number of P8s to offer a capability, again 2bn
- for a bn 3 complete ASW Merlin platforms to be got

Further, forgetting about what the total should be (could be what we will have in a couple if years time) the question is:

Have we got the balance right?
Ever-lasting truths: Multi-year budgets/ planning by necessity have to address the painful questions; more often than not the Either-Or prevails over Both-And.
If everyone is thinking the same, then someone is not thinking (attributed to Patton)

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shark bait
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Re: Future ASW

Post by shark bait »

If you compare to the Americans they only really use subs and MPA's as their 'proper ASW platforms', so in the RN balance is certainly different.

The MPA is different, that provides an intermittent wide area ASW capability, where as the subs and Frigate-Merlin combo provide the local persistent ASW capability, both are definitely needed and once MPA numbers have built up the balance will start to look right again.

I would ask why do the RN use frigates, where the USN use SSN? Presumably at one point the argument was cost, but does that still hold true?
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ArmChairCivvy
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Re: Future ASW

Post by ArmChairCivvy »

shark bait wrote: an intermittent wide area ASW capability, where as the subs and Frigate-Merlin combo provide the local persistent ASW capability,
Well put
shark bait wrote:why do the RN use frigates, where the USN use SSN?
2 bn/ 5 x (300 plus abt 50) EQUALS abt the same capability, or not... that is the question!
- also, with the number of (our) platforms being small, rotating through maintenance will have less impact on readiness with more numerous platforms (being emphasized)
- not to mention attrition... if we take scenarios a bit further
Ever-lasting truths: Multi-year budgets/ planning by necessity have to address the painful questions; more often than not the Either-Or prevails over Both-And.
If everyone is thinking the same, then someone is not thinking (attributed to Patton)

Lord Jim
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Re: Future ASW

Post by Lord Jim »

Well we used to use SSNs and SSs until the end of the Cold War meant we saw the threat dropping to almost non existent level and thought our relatively large Escort fleet could carry the load and be more flexible. Then we decided the threat was such we didn't need as many escorts. And then falling budget have meant that when we needed to replace both platform types the number fell again, but at least we have retained top tier capabilities to tell the world about in our PR literature.

If we lessen our aspirations on what we want to do, our planned ASW assets will be enough, and actually world beating in some areas. The Merlin HM2 means even a T-45 becomes a useful ASW platform, as the former is probably the best self contained rotary ASW platform around and should maintain that crown even when considering the NH-90. I agree one area that does need to be addressed is that of UAV support for the P-8s. Also are our platforms going to have a MAD like the Indian ones or be like the USN vanilla ones? Also could a Reaper 2/Protector carry one or two ASW Torpedoes? or is it purely to extend the surveillance coverage? Could it drop Sonar Buoys and relay the info to both ships and P-8s? Has the RN thought about any of the above together with the RAF.

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shark bait
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Re: Future ASW

Post by shark bait »

It's not relay £2bn vs £300m any more, its closer to £1.5bn vs £1bn, should that tip the balance in favor of the subs, or do that mean we're over spending on frigates?

The British approach of using frigates for the local persistent ASW work still seems like a good solution, working on the surface that can be networked with other units, and work closer with aircraft which are the real sub killing tool. On the other hand an SSN has to act in isolation, plus the RN have a big SSN deficiency, and we can't build more, leaving little choice but to go all in with ASW frigates.




ASW UAV's are something that should be explored, and the RAF has indicated it wants to use Protector in that role. That will be a positive development, there wont be many manned MPA's so extending their reach through some manned unmanned teaming is necessary.

The Seaspray 7500E has been trialed on the Reaper, and that's what the RAF are interested in at this point, not the proposal to fit a sonobuoy launcher.

Makes good sense, more nodes in a sub hunting network, with only a small increase in manpower. There has even been talk about putting the reaper operator station on the P8, and using line of sight communications, which again sounds useful for the maritime and land roles.
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marktigger
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Re: Future ASW

Post by marktigger »

so how does the RAF propose to use drones for sub hunting with out sonar bouys.

I agree with the comment about merlin being the best asw helicopter we have which is why we need more Merlin and less wildcat. Merlin can fill wildcats role with a much bigger radius of operation.

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Re: Future ASW

Post by donald_of_tokyo »

marktigger wrote:so how does the RAF propose to use drones for sub hunting with out sonar bouys.

I agree with the comment about merlin being the best asw helicopter we have which is why we need more Merlin and less wildcat. Merlin can fill wildcats role with a much bigger radius of operation.
How many Merlin can be bought if RN did not bought Wildcat? Replacement ratio maybe at least 2:1, or rather 3:1, which means 28 Wildcat could have been replaced with (14 or) 9 Merlins, I guess? Is this your proposal?

I think it is worth thinking.

I personally think, RN should have bought a utility helicopter smaller/cheaper than Wildcats (max take off 6t), say
- 21 Dorphans (max take off 4.3t) for 14 Wildcats's cost, and put 14 Wildcat's cost to 5 Merlins.
Or
- 20 EC135 (2.9t max) with 10 Wildcat's cost and put 18 Wildcat's cost to 6-7 Merlins.

marktigger
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Re: Future ASW

Post by marktigger »

tea donald export more jobs and close westlands in yeovil very sensible!

donald_of_tokyo
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Re: Future ASW

Post by donald_of_tokyo »

marktigger wrote:tea donald export more jobs and close westlands in yeovil very sensible!
But that is what you proposed? Or you are proposing to reduce the total number of helicopters? Then, you are proposing to
- build only 16 Wildcats, and put 12 Wildcat's cost to 4 Merlin? Total number is 28 --> 20, reduction of 8.

Yes, this could be also a candidate, but it will mean some of the frigates/Bays will deploy with no helicopter?

marktigger
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Re: Future ASW

Post by marktigger »

maybe build another 12 merlin re role the wild cats to army standard for 5 regt

donald_of_tokyo
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Re: Future ASW

Post by donald_of_tokyo »

marktigger wrote:maybe build another 12 merlin re role the wild cats to army standard for 5 regt
Uhm...
- If it is "modifying" the HM1 to HM2, it will cost around 250-300M GBP. In other words, 2-3 F35B and 1-2 P-8A equivalent.
- In addition, changing 12 Wildcats to Merlin will require additional crew of ~50, and maintenance engineer of ~50 or more, I guess. (+100 manpower)
- In addition, to handle the 12 more Wildcats, the army needs maybe another ~100 crew and engineers, I guess. (+100 manpower)
Significant investment it is.

# If it is to build 12 "new" Merlins, it may cost 1B GBP or so. Very very big investment it is. (Not bad as to save British helicopter industry, but what to cut...)

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Re: Future ASW

Post by dmereifield »

Lord Jim wrote:Well we used to use SSNs and SSs until the end of the Cold War meant we saw the threat dropping to almost non existent level and thought our relatively large Escort fleet could carry the load and be more flexible. Then we decided the threat was such we didn't need as many escorts. And then falling budget have meant that when we needed to replace both platform types the number fell again, but at least we have retained top tier capabilities to tell the world about in our PR literature.

If we lessen our aspirations on what we want to do, our planned ASW assets will be enough, and actually world beating in some areas. The Merlin HM2 means even a T-45 becomes a useful ASW platform, as the former is probably the best self contained rotary ASW platform around and should maintain that crown even when considering the NH-90. I agree one area that does need to be addressed is that of UAV support for the P-8s. Also are our platforms going to have a MAD like the Indian ones or be like the USN vanilla ones? Also could a Reaper 2/Protector carry one or two ASW Torpedoes? or is it purely to extend the surveillance coverage? Could it drop Sonar Buoys and relay the info to both ships and P-8s? Has the RN thought about any of the above together with the RAF.
Is this really the case? As you may know, my ignorance abounds on such matters, which is why I’m here asking such questions. Can a T45 with only a HMS have a realistic chance of detecting a submarine before it falls within torpedo range? If it can, can it actively track it and maintain a position beyond torpedo range until the Merlin is capable of taking off and investigating/prosecuting? I’m thinking about times when the Merlin may not be available due to maintenance or poor weather conditions.

Lastly, even if it can, do the T45s regularly embark a Merlin? I thought they mostly carried the Wildcats?

Pleased if you or anyone else can provide answers to any of the above questions
Thanks

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