Future ASW

[jimthelad]

Ron,

At the risk of being obtuse, when was that image posted? I only ask because the FAA 849 Sqn simulator that is about to be delivered is still based on the HM-2 Barco displays apparently. It might be that the interface is the same but the consoles are to change. The original contract for interchanging software on existing (proposed HM-2 architecture). It was this and the late forced adoption (competition ruling in favour of Thales) of the Elta system that in many ways forced LM out of the program. The big issue for LM was they were forced to redesign the software to fit the consoles (as far as the interface) and they could not meet the maturity of the SW2000/Cerberus which had been around for ages. If the consoles require changing for reroling this may explain the rebid from Thales.

I cant find an image for the simulator ( I dont even think there is one in open source) but Gabriele got one from one of the trade shows so I have posted this from his blog UKArmedForcesCommentary- with recognition of rights.

http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-nxckJeurl8g/V ... %2BHM2.jpg

[Ron5]

Gabriele is using a MoD crown copyright photo of the HM2 console from at least July 2013.

My scan is of a Thales copyright photo from Janes Navy International Nov 2015.

Of course it's perfectly possible that Thales has changed consoles on prompting from the MoD, but the article went to great lengths to describe all the work done by Thales on the console and HMI with the help of an experienced naval observer who was seconded to the project. Plenty of examples of things like link 16 activation being made simpler.

I guess I shouldn't be surprised if the MoD chooses to save a few pennies by throwing away all that good work.

I think their motto is "Been saving ha'p'orths of tar since 1660" (thanks google).

[jimthelad]

Thanks , I will see what I can dig up.

[seaspear]

This might be a useful role for a type 31 that may not be expensive and could contribute to support of carrier operations , and that is the operations of a towed airborne sensor , a proposed model assisted by balloon is claimed to reach well over five thousand feet , this it is claimed could monitor sonar bouys dropped by aircraft freeing up the use of helicopters ,increase range of communications ,is considerably cheaper than equivalent fixed mast for same range ,there are other claims ,but if keeping the costs down should be assessed ,another consideration should a light frigate be able to deploy remote vessels in the littoral asw role .

[SKB]

How about an Airlander?!

[shark bait]

Or Zephyr.

On the subject of UAV's, I don't believe the sonobuoy launcher for our new Protector aircraft has been discused yet. It seems like a reasonable investment to team with the P8. Would it be a valuable mix?

[ArmChairCivvy]

it is claimed could monitor sonar bouys dropped by aircraft freeing up the use of helicopters

How about putting one of these onboard so that once the P8 has been and gone the sonoboyos could still be linked to the vessel over a wide area?

- just have to find a place for it where where the 360 degree rotation will not need the assistance of the vessel changing course

[bobp]

How about an Airlander?!

Apart from its resemblance to a certain ladies ass what use would it be apart from making a sizeable target.

[shark bait]

Interesting image shedding some light on china's expansion into the indian ocean, particularily through Subs, lots of bases to support their large fleet of SSK's

Also add, Bangladesh, Indonesia, Singapore, Malaysia, Pakistan, Israel, and Iran to the there are a lot of none NATO SSK operators within the region.

Its pretty clear the sub threat is increasing, through increased numbers and proliferation of technology. What is the RN's response to this increased threat? to reduce ASW assets across the board. Is that a well measured response?

[marktigger]

the royal navy concentrates allot of effort into Amphibious warfare. Could a way of protecting the landing area be to lay a network of Sensors to create a sanitised area for the landing force to work in. Using minelaying technology to lay passive sensors and maybe ASW mines or anti torpedo counter measures.

[shark bait]

It may be worth evaluating the V22 or equivalent, and using it as a carrier borne fixed wing MPA to tend to a large field of sonobuoys, presumably active for the above instance to detect any approaching SSK's.

That would have have to come as a replacement for Merlin, which would likley require small change in tactics.

A big towed array to identify the presence and bearing of a Sub.
A VTOL MPA to localize the sub using sonobuoys.
A Wildcat with dipping sonar to get targeting information and finally prosecute the target.

The advantage is a tilt rotor can search a much larger area, with more sonobuoys than Merlin, but some one told me the V22 would not make a good platform to hover and use a dipping sonar, due to low hover efficiency, instability, and huge downwash creating a shit load of noise.

That then requires another helicopter, and luckily we have a small naval helo that can use a dipping sonar and launch lightweight torpedo's. Using the data collected from the field of sonobuoys the wild cat could fly in to an area of high probability, blast the sub with active sonar, get very good targeting data and launch a torpedo with a high probability of sucsess

[marktigger]

is wildcat likely to get dipping sonar?

[marktigger]

It may be worth evaluating the V22 or equivalent, and using it as a carrier borne fixed wing MPA to tend to a large field of sonobuoys, presumably active for the above instance to detect any approaching SSK's.

That would have have to come as a replacement for Merlin, which would likley require small change in tactics.

A big towed array to identify the presence and bearing of a Sub.
A VTOL MPA to localize the sub using sonobuoys.
A Wildcat with dipping sonar to get targeting information and finally prosecute the target.

The advantage is a tilt rotor can search a much larger area, with more sonobuoys than Merlin, but some one told me the V22 would not make a good platform to hover and use a dipping sonar, due to low hover efficiency, instability, and huge downwash creating a shit load of noise.

That then requires another helicopter, and luckily we have a small naval helo that can use a dipping sonar and launch lightweight torpedo's. Using the data collected from the field of sonobuoys the wild cat could fly in to an area of high probability, blast the sub with active sonar, get very good targeting data and launch a torpedo with a high probability of sucsess

are the Americans looking at an ASW osprey? because I'm sure we couldn't afford to pay for its development. we have merlin and by sounds of it its a much better platform than wildcat at least the sensors and weapons are actually integrated. Sofar Wildcats operation armament consists of an M3 machine gun.

[shark bait]

Wildcat is already equipped with a dipping sonar for the Korean Navy. Fully possible to equip it with a FLASH dipping sonar and lightweight torpedo in RN service for the final stage targeting and prosecution.

I would suggest the only reason that hasn't happened so far is protectionism of the Merlin, but as we are discussing Merlin's replacement it would no longer be an issue.

Merlin is certainly more capable than Wildcat because it can spend more time on station whilst localizing the target, so Wildcat would be used differently.

At present Merlin is used for localization, targeting and prosecuting phases. In the future use the V22 for localization, then Wildcat for targeting and prosecuting.

The V22 can perform a much much wider and longer localization phase with more active sonobuoys to increase the chance of finding an SSK in the littorals.

The quicker targeting and prosecuting phase would then be performed by the Wildcat.

The V22 isn't pressurized so it could be as simple as dropping sonobuoys off the ramp, and using Merlins equiptment as RORO kit to communicate with the sonobuoys. (Also RORO tanker and crows nest equipment would be desirable, hopefully the RN will have to opportunity to experiment and evaluate with the US Marines)

[marktigger]

so add dippping sonar and crewman and 2 torpedoes you start loosing endurance and performance. with observer 2 eyes on tactical plot yeap esm and radar and elop

Merlin has dipping sonar, sonar buoys, Radar, ESM and 4 torpedoes plus 2 backseat crew and the copilot able to have sensor data giving 3 eyes on better endurance. only needs ELOP package and it can carry the M3 as well

[shark bait]

perhaps I'm not being clear.

Use the V22 to find the sub, which has greater endurance, payload and range than Merlin, and then Wildcat is just for the final blast of active sonar right next to the sub to provide quality targeting information to a lightweight torpedo. Use a tilt rotor to act as a mini P8 from the carriers.

There are many stages in the ASW cycle; Detection, localization, Targeting, Engagement

1. Detection is typically performed by a frigate with a big passive array, but it only gives a bearing and through some investigation perhaps classification and a very rough range
2. Localization then further refines the position of the sub, perhaps using active sonar, but if you don't want to give away position use a helicopter to to narrow down the area the sub is probably within
3. Targeting happens once there is a high probability of knowing where the sub is, a helicopter flies in and uses its dipping sonar to blast the sub with active to know exactly where the sub is.
4. Engagement, pretty simple, now the crews know exactly where the sub is and sends off a torpedo which will usually go straight into active mode

Right now the frigate does stage 1 and 2, and Merlin does 2,3 and 4

I was suggesting a frigate for stage 1, V22 for stage 2, and Wildcat for 3 and 4. That gives a much wider and longer localization phase, where it can drop and monitor more active sonobuoys to increase the chance of finding an SSK in coastal environments.

Its just a suggestion to get more sensors in more water to increase the probability of finding a sub.

[marktigger]

Remember there is also Sonar buoys merlin can also get and interpret data from other platforms and have the crew so I would suggest Merlin can do 1,2,3,4 wildcat can do stage 4

[shark bait]

Merlin could do stage one, but it isn't as persistent or as sensitive as a long towed array on a frigate so it would require a lot of aircraft to maintain the same kind of coverage as a T23/26 provides.

[marktigger]

depends on enviroment in restricted waters like littoral certainly. An Osprey SV22 could be interesting taking the role of the long defunct Viking in addition to merlin. However how high up the Americans want list is it? as they will have to fund the lions share of it.

[shark bait]

That was the idea, a Viking type aircraft to get a wider area capability to monitor a large field of active sonobuoys in to increase detection probability against increasing quiet subs.

Doesn't have to be a V22, but if its manned platform it has to be a tilt rotor and only one option exits right now. Alternitively there could be a network of light drones relaying the raw data back a manned platform.

A V22 type does look attractive for the future for refueling and AEW, it would make sense to add ASW to the list.

[marktigger]

there was talk in 60's/70's of an ASW Chinook

[Ron5]

Also Sea Harrier dropping sonar buoys which is just about as stupid as the last few posts. Sea Harriers can operate off a Type 23/26 just about as well as a V-22 plus Wildcat.

[shark bait]

What about those fancy big boats the chaps in Rosyth are building?

[marktigger]

What about those fancy big boats the chaps in Rosyth are building?

they'll never take off

[shark bait]

I laughed