Future ASW

[ArmChairCivvy]

have also heard that they are all going to be AEW capable .

Even with the roll on/off AEW kit each mission is still either - or.
- I think the console in the back is shared, though, so need to swap it when the EAW kit is onboarded

[Ron5]

Consoles not shared according to Janes.

[jimthelad]

AEW and ASW both use the standard HM-2 console, processor, and power train. The software is obviously different and the airframe requires the mountings but the intent is to plug and play. Both SW2000/CD/MTI with Cerberus and the Elta pod have to use the same architecture. the latter means the shoulder hardpoints are occupied. But hell, what would I know?

[R686]

canberra / Juan Carlos I class LPH would make excellent ocean/Albion/Bulwark replacements

Just a small nit pic, you keep referring JC1/CBR as LPH's at first I thought it was a typo.

JC1/CBR are LHD's a small matter of a well dock is the distinction.

Wasp class = LHD (well dock)
America class = LPH ( no well dock)

Not having a go at you but would like to get the terminology right for a new members so to avoid confusion.

[seaspear]

For increasing asw capability besides cost what are the arguments against adding an asw capability to the type 45 ,granted without a acoustically quietened hull it would not be as effective a the proposed type 26 ,but on the occasion when away from carrier escort duties could operate effectively in asw operations , there is no guarantee even if the type 31 was to receive asw similar to captas 2 it would be as effective as a Daring with captas 4quite the reverse

[shark bait]

The T45 fleet will be occupied acting solely as a fleet air defence escort once the carrier's are online. Their availability for other tasks will be extremely limited.

Alone it won't make a good ASW ship, as part of a task group the optimum position for an AW defender will be different to that of a sub hunter.

The two roles appear incompatible, which is probably why we have separate classes and not just one super class.

[Engaging Strategy]

For increasing asw capability besides cost what are the arguments against adding an asw capability to the type 45 ,granted without a acoustically quietened hull it would not be as effective a the proposed type 26 ,but on the occasion when away from carrier escort duties could operate effectively in asw operations , there is no guarantee even if the type 31 was to receive asw similar to captas 2 it would be as effective as a Daring with captas 4quite the reverse

I don't believe the Type 45s have the necessary spaces reserved for a towed array.

America class = LPH ( no well dock)

Not having a go at you but would like to get the terminology right for a new members so to avoid confusion.

Technically the America class is an LHA (Landing, Helicopter, Assault) not an LPH. Although i'm unsure of what makes the two types distinct from one another. Possibly fixed-wing capability with Harrier (and now F-35B). It gets even more confusing when you consider that the old Tarawa class assault ships were designated LHAs but also had well-docks, technically making them LHDs.

Basically it's confusing as all hell and the type designations aren't always all that consistent when it comes to flat-topped amphibious assault ships.

[R686]

Technically the America class is an LHA (Landing, Helicopter, Assault) not an LPH. Although i'm unsure of what makes the two types distinct from one another. Possibly fixed-wing capability with Harrier (and now F-35B). It gets even more confusing when you consider that the old Tarawa class assault ships were designated LHAs but also had well-docks, technically making them LHDs.

Basically it's confusing as all hell and the type designations aren't always all that consistent when it comes to flat-topped amphibious assault ships.

I can see your point, when you also take into account Cavour 550, Invincible class (CVS) and the Japanese DDH's they all do basically the same thing.

[Ron5]

AEW and ASW both use the standard HM-2 console, processor, and power train. The software is obviously different and the airframe requires the mountings but the intent is to plug and play. Both SW2000/CD/MTI with Cerberus and the Elta pod have to use the same architecture. the latter means the shoulder hardpoints are occupied. But hell, what would I know?

I have no idea what you know or don't know. At one time you claimed you had no connection with the MoD and you learned everything from your neighbors.

Anyhoo, Janes showed a photo of the AEW console being tested by RN Observers and stated it was not the same as the ASW console. For one thing the AEW console had much larger screens. On the other hand, the Lockheed bid (with the dual pods) did use the ASW consoles with a bolt on.

[ArmChairCivvy]

when you also take into account Cavour 550, Invincible class (CVS) and the Japanese DDH's they all do basically the same thing.

For the DDH there are historical (and constitutional) reasons for how the "self defence" force can designate their ships.

But to ES's comment about the "A" in LHA being for Assault, is it actually for Aviation? And why ask Gary Google when we have Gabrielle here, especially as Italy has / is planning to order 2 amphibs and an LHA using the same hull, so they must have followed the NATO definition to make the "LHA" designation an accurate fit.

[bobp]

Anyhoo, Janes showed a photo of the AEW console being tested by RN Observers and stated it was not the same as the ASW console. For one thing the AEW console had much larger screens. On the other hand, the Lockheed bid (with the dual pods) did use the ASW consoles with a bolt on.

Correct the Thales system uses the Console from the Sea King with a slightly larger touch screen, plus other upgrades. The failed Lockheed bid did use the ASW console as was suggested, but I'm told they had issues getting everything to work. There is some info in the Merlin thread I posted a while back.

[jimthelad]

Everything is now migrated onto the standard HM 2 consoles AFAIK. The LM bid was dropped but the rethink may yet bring it back in. The older ASAC consoles would require changes to the cabin according Leonardo.

[bobp]

So now its not certain who has won the competition ?

[ArmChairCivvy]

A rebid has been requested,

Although I think only from the "winner" so it is not like reopening the competition.

[marktigger]

given they are looking at making the AEW kit clip in it makes sense to use the same consoles. Especially if any aircraft or ?crew could be assigned to it.

[bobp]

With money being tight may just be another way of delaying order until cash-flow improves.

[ArmChairCivvy]

We keep hearing about ASW being a game of deep specialists...Surely at least the console operator would change (within the crew) if the clip
in/ on kit is changed and the helo re-roled?
- or is AEW so much easier that cross-traning is a breeze?

[Ron5]

Everything is now migrated onto the standard HM 2 consoles AFAIK. The LM bid was dropped but the rethink may yet bring it back in. The older ASAC consoles would require changes to the cabin according Leonardo.

Thales via Janes was crystal clear that the existing ASW consoles would not work. All ASW equipment is removed from the Merlin HM2s and the AEW kit is moved in. That kit includes brand new AEW consoles which were designed and developed using considerable input from RN Observers.

Yes, ACC, AEW specialists (used to be called fighter controllers) replace the ASW crew.

No, Lockheed has not been asked in any shape or form to rebid their losing proposal. Thales has been asked to resubmit a final bid for the main gate decision which presumably is imminent because it was scheduled for 2Q16.

Knowing the Treasury, I'm sure Thales has been asked to uneconomically stretch out the contract in order to keep in year payments to a minimum at the cost of a much higher total bill. Because that's what the Treasury does. Over and over and over again.

If I can find time tomorrow,, I'll risk the wrath of Janes and scan a photo of the new console to attach here.

[ArmChairCivvy]

used to be called fighter controllers

The name might come back? Once we get some fighters!

[bobp]

Thales via Janes was crystal clear that the existing ASW consoles would not work. All ASW equipment is removed from the Merlin HM2s and the AEW kit is moved in. That kit includes brand new AEW consoles which were designed and developed using considerable input from RN Observers.

Not exactly plug n play if you got to start removing consoles etc. Not a case of just sliding in a palette either.

[Ron5]

Thales via Janes was crystal clear that the existing ASW consoles would not work. All ASW equipment is removed from the Merlin HM2s and the AEW kit is moved in. That kit includes brand new AEW consoles which were designed and developed using considerable input from RN Observers.

Not exactly plug n play if you got to start removing consoles etc. Not a case of just sliding in a palette either.

Not as bad as you think Bob. They're pretty used to getting the ASW kit out (including consoles) to use the Merlins as shed haulers.

[Ron5]

Scan001.jpg

Did that work?

[bobp]

Thanks Ron and thanks for the console image.

[Spinflight]

One thing I've always wondered about with ASW, and particularly future ASW is the potential for active / passive systems.

Thing is back in the day no-one could work out what the Ruskies were playing at with their Kirovs. Being nuke powered they could pretty much bang as much power as they liked through their sensors, but the bow sonar on that thing was so large as to make it useless. Basically if you put too much power through a sonar you boil the water, and therefore make it useless for actually detecting anything.

The Kirovs put out so much power that it was pretty obvious they couldn't get any useful information from it. Always wondered whether it was an early active / passive system, with the Kirov radiating ( those things can pretty much afford to advertise their presence) and returns picked up by other systems. Probably kills all the fish and worries dolphins 300 miles away too.

Anyone know much about it?

[ArmChairCivvy]

Don't know (luckily we have xav here, if he is not on his hols?) but being LF I wonder if there was a secondary function of keeping in touch with their subs fleet (that also carry long-range cruise missiles for surface attack)?
- the normal means of doing that was with an a/c realeasing a 3 km antenna tail!

Unlimited power? The first of class suffered a reactor malfunction that reduced her to a source for parts for the others, and the final (fourth) of class that has been kept in service all through was downgraded to conventional propulsion without any (known) accident causing it.