UK Defence Forum

also close Clyde and move back ship building to Portsmouth, we might have to do it sooner rather than later

FuNsTeR wrote:also close Clyde and move back ship building to Portsmouth, we might have to do it sooner rather than later

Only if you're trying to encourage the Scots to leave the UK....no thanks

dmereifield wrote:

FuNsTeR wrote:also close Clyde and move back ship building to Portsmouth, we might have to do it sooner rather than later

Only if you're trying to encourage the Scots to leave the UK....no thanks

so the rest of the UK is to be held to ransom just to appease or not to upset the Scots, they are already subsidised to the hilt via the barnett formula

FuNsTeR wrote:

dmereifield wrote:

FuNsTeR wrote:also close Clyde and move back ship building to Portsmouth, we might have to do it sooner rather than later

Only if you're trying to encourage the Scots to leave the UK....no thanks

so the rest of the UK is to be held to ransom just to appease or not to upset the Scots, they are already subsidised to the hilt via the barnett formula

So are Cornwall, Wales and NI. Should we try to jettison them too? Once they're gone, the other regions that are subsidised, to a lesser extent, will come into focus....it's an unavoidable fact that it costs more to provide public services to rural communities...so we shall just end up with a city state, or collection of them, in the end?

Don't tar the whole of Scotland with the arrogant, selfish, self serving, ungrateful, anti-English nature of the SNP

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/business/201 ... s-exports/

Arms sales to Saudi Arabia are legal....will we see a second Typhoon order materialise soon, or has that ship sailed?

We need a far better "Carrot and Stick" programme for Scotland to undermine the SNP. However showing favor to the Scots to the detriment of other areas is not to be encouraged. The SNP need to be called on their spending priorities, where they claim the credit for the spending on vote winners like education but blame the UK Government for things the do not properly fund or raise the taxes to do so.

BAe System's ship building operations in Scotland should be core to this. If the SNP agree that Scotland will remain within and integral to the UK then the UK Government will support BAe with orders, but if they keep up the pretence that Scotland is a sovereign country that is entitled to independence then BAe are encouraged to move south with Government help. As part of this further tax raising powers/responsibilities should be transferred to Scotland to negate the SNPs anti-government rhetoric. Also the funding per head should match the average of the rest of the UK as should Northern Ireland and Wales.

LordJim wrote:
BAe System's ship building operations in Scotland should be core to this. If the SNP agree that Scotland will remain within and integral to the UK then the UK Government will support BAe with orders, but if they keep up the pretence that Scotland is a sovereign country that is entitled to independence then BAe are encouraged to move south with Government help.
[Isn't this the current strategy? Not a particularly good one. Let's see what Nss says]

As part of this further tax raising powers/responsibilities should be transferred to Scotland to negate the SNPs anti-government rhetoric.
[I like Scotland and the Scots a lot, so hopefully this won't be taken out of context: SNP's rhetoric, and indeed its platform is dedicated to the $80-100/ barrel oil - just like Putin's aspiration and personal ambition to reconnect the Russian Tsarist empire. Neither will thrive when the real scenarios are between 30 and 45 into the foreseeable future]

Also the funding per head should match the average of the rest of the UK as should Northern Ireland and Wales.
[The above is what being a nation is all about; hence the EU cannot be a nation, but must limit its ambitions to key areas that deal with Europe's future... not just being an affluent market for others, but fully leveraging its internal dynamics and throwing its weight around - be it in trade, foreign policy... or in the extension of the former: defence related matters. Not a bad formula for the UK, either. So why abandon it; just like in tennis: Never change the winning game?]

Would have done the commentary against three separate quotes, but as this thread was merged it somehow made the quote facility "not working"

Why on Earth are some pro-nationalisation? Nationalisation equals inefficiency and declining competitiveness - especially bad given we'd have to borrow to buy the company.

If concerned by a potential foreign takeover, then the government having a golden share should be sufficient

http://www.defense-aerospace.com/articl ... grade.html

Doubts over BAE Typhoon sale to Qatar....

I don't think anyone seriously thought that the Qatari LOI would turn into an order in reality, or at least anytime soon. I suspect never..

The Saudi order also appears to have dragged on far too long for it ever to materialise. They're cutting it fine, and with the recent Saudi-Russia rapprochement it could mean it never happens. Of course BAe don't want to say that out loud for obvious reasons. The pension deficit is worrying for them though...

Timmymagic wrote:I don't think anyone seriously thought that the Qatari LOI would turn into an order in reality, or at least anytime soon. I suspect never..

The Saudi order also appears to have dragged on far too long for it ever to materialise. They're cutting it fine, and with the recent Saudi-Russia rapprochement it could mean it never happens. Of course BAe don't want to say that out loud for obvious reasons. The pension deficit is worrying for them though...

Disappointing if it pans out that way

http://news.sky.com/story/bae-systems-t ... n-11073489

BAE to cut 1000 jobs due to Typhoon production slow down. Very disappointing. Had hoped that the recent announcement of Qatar's intention to order 24 would delay this for a few years

Could there be a chance, albeit small, that the recent announcement of job losses at BAE, specifically listing a lack of Typhoon and Hawk orders, is a ploy to 1) provide political cover to HMG for approval of a second batch of Typhoon to Saudi Arabia, whom swoop in with an order at the last minute, saving hundreds of jobs...and 2) to try to encourage the MoD to order more Hawks to replace the red arrows (and others)?

Fanciful thinking, I know.....

It's funny how many of the public are so against selling arms that they stall, delay, complain, protest and decrease foreign confidence in the UK as a seller and yet then suddenly when the manufacturers have to cut jobs they all turn around and go "WHY IS THE GOVERNMENT NOT STOPPING THIS?!"

Grand, the Gov is just as much to blame by not ordering proper quantities and by not supporting sales like they should, but the attitude of many to complain about it happening, then complaining about the consequences when the thing they wanted happens is just staggering in its ignorance.

dmereifield wrote:Could there be a chance, albeit small, that the recent announcement of job losses at BAE, specifically listing a lack of Typhoon and Hawk orders, is a ploy to 1) provide political cover to HMG for approval of a second batch of Typhoon to Saudi Arabia, whom swoop in with an order at the last minute, saving hundreds of jobs...and 2) to try to encourage the MoD to order more Hawks to replace the red arrows (and others)?

Fanciful thinking, I know.....

Well the Red Arrows have got to fly something beyond 2020 and it's got to be British to fly the patriotic flag so why not?

Also, they've spent a bit of money on this https://www.livefistdefence.com/2017/02 ... -hawk.html but India didn't buy so BAe Systems must be hoping for some UK sales as the launch customer.

Finally, there's the ASDOT contract to bid for - £1.2 billion over fifteen years!

AndyC wrote:

dmereifield wrote:Could there be a chance, albeit small, that the recent announcement of job losses at BAE, specifically listing a lack of Typhoon and Hawk orders, is a ploy to 1) provide political cover to HMG for approval of a second batch of Typhoon to Saudi Arabia, whom swoop in with an order at the last minute, saving hundreds of jobs...and 2) to try to encourage the MoD to order more Hawks to replace the red arrows (and others)?

Fanciful thinking, I know.....

Well the Red Arrows have got to fly something beyond 2020 and it's got to be British to fly the patriotic flag so why not?

Also, they've spent a bit of money on this https://www.livefistdefence.com/2017/02 ... -hawk.html but India didn't buy so BAe Systems must be hoping for some UK sales as the launch customer.

Finally, there's the ASDOT contract to bid for - £1.2 billion over fifteen years!

Well hopefully something will come in from those possibilities. What I'd love to see is a massive Saudi order come in - not just to save jobs - also to see what the hypocritical lefties/momentum idiots would do.....actively campaign against it (i.e. Campaigning for UK job losses) or whether they grow up and be pragmatic to support the deal....

AndyC wrote:

dmereifield wrote:Could there be a chance, albeit small, that the recent announcement of job losses at BAE, specifically listing a lack of Typhoon and Hawk orders, is a ploy to 1) provide political cover to HMG for approval of a second batch of Typhoon to Saudi Arabia, whom swoop in with an order at the last minute, saving hundreds of jobs...and 2) to try to encourage the MoD to order more Hawks to replace the red arrows (and others)?

Fanciful thinking, I know.....

Well the Red Arrows have got to fly something beyond 2020 and it's got to be British to fly the patriotic flag so why not?

Also, they've spent a bit of money on this https://www.livefistdefence.com/2017/02 ... -hawk.html but India didn't buy so BAe Systems must be hoping for some UK sales as the launch customer.

Finally, there's the ASDOT contract to bid for - £1.2 billion over fifteen years!

Wouldn't that simply be jobs in India, according to the article?

(BAE Systems)

Within the next few decades, armed forces could be using unmanned aerial vehicles (UAVs) with adaptable aircraft technologies that alternate between fixed-wing flight and rotary-wing flight. Engineers from BAE Systems together with students from Cranfield University, have revealed a new technology concept – named Adaptable UAVs – which can alternate between the two different flight modes in the same mission. When in rotary wing mode the UAVs can be launched and recovered from battlefields and docked on a special pole.

(BAE Systems)

Eurofighter Typhoon is the most advanced, combat proven multi-role aircraft in the world. Watch this video to see it in action like never before

https://www.defensenews.com/air/2017/11 ... t-from-uk/

BAE and Qatar conclude negotiations for the sale of 24 Typhoons and 6 Hawks. Contracts to be signed in due course, possibly mid December.

This will keep the Typhoon production line running until 2024. Apparently, without this deal the production was due to run until 2022 (later than I had thought).

dmereifield wrote: This will keep the Typhoon production line running until 2024. Apparently, without this deal the production was due to run until 2022 (later than I had thought).

Reading the details, it says UK, Oman and Kuwait - 2022 is most likely when the last of the Typhoon major units are shipped off. The actual production line for UK aircraft probably ends 2019 or thereabouts.

What details? It says this:

"Boardman hinted at a prolonged delivery schedule for the Qatari Typhoons, telling the parliamentary committee the deal will stretch assembly of the fast jet at BAE’s Warton site in northwest England to 2024. The current order book delivering jets to the Britusg Royal Air Force, Oman and Kuwait is set to end in 2022, he said."

dmereifield wrote:What details? It says this:

"Boardman hinted at a prolonged delivery schedule for the Qatari Typhoons, telling the parliamentary committee the deal will stretch assembly of the fast jet at BAE’s Warton site in northwest England to 2024. The current order book delivering jets to the Britusg Royal Air Force, Oman and Kuwait is set to end in 2022, he said."

See highlighted for the detail - this explains why 2022 sounds later than you thought.

2022 is when the UK is meant to finish shipping off Typhoon front fuse sections to Italy. The date you hear more often (2019/2020) is the date of final assembly of UK/Oman examples.

It's someone being a bit generous with what encompasses 'assembly'. Most would assume that to be final aircraft, but in this case it's broken down into major units which is why it sounds like activity is more prolonged than in reality.

Every couple of years you see headlines about what "star" Typhoon has been in our defence exports... when they just calculate the percentage within exported items (their value) - taking the net first, how much imports were going into each unit exported would yield quite a different number. RE
"It's Boardman being a bit generous with what encompasses 'assembly'. Most would assume that to be final aircraft, but in this case it's broken down into major units which is why it sounds like activity is more prolonged than in reality."
- I guess the "real" reality is when the line passes the moment that makes the reopening of it prohibitively expensive... extensively studied in the case of F-22

Defiance wrote:

dmereifield wrote:What details? It says this:

"Boardman hinted at a prolonged delivery schedule for the Qatari Typhoons, telling the parliamentary committee the deal will stretch assembly of the fast jet at BAE’s Warton site in northwest England to 2024. The current order book delivering jets to the Britusg Royal Air Force, Oman and Kuwait is set to end in 2022, he said."

See highlighted for the detail - this explains why 2022 sounds later than you thought.

2022 is when the UK is meant to finish shipping off Typhoon front fuse sections to Italy. The date you hear more often (2019/2020) is the date of final assembly of UK/Oman examples at Warton.

It's Boardman being a bit generous with what encompasses 'assembly'. Most would assume that to be final aircraft, but in this case it's broken down into major units which is why it sounds like activity is more prolonged than in reality.

Ah, I see. Thanks for clarification. Good news either way. Hopefully we can secure an additional order now the production line has been extended.

Do you (or anyone else) know when the (UK) Hawk production line is due to fulfil the order book, considering the additional 6 aircraft for Qatar?

dmereifield wrote:Ah, I see. Thanks for clarification. Good news either way. Hopefully we can secure an additional order now the production line has been extended.

Do you (or anyone else) know when the (UK) Hawk production line is due to fulfil the order book, considering the additional 6 aircraft for Qatar?

No problem. Yeah it's positive, as long as it gets turned into a contract. They're still talking to Saudi about batch 2 as well.

AFAIK Oman deliveries end this year and the first handful (2-3?) have been shipped to KSA from that order of 22 they placed a couple of years ago. Hawk will probably last until 2019, i'd be surprised if it goes on much after that in the absense of any more Typhoon exports.