BAE Systems plc

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Should BAE be nationalised by the UK?

Please note that results are sorted by decreasing number of votes received.

None of it
23
41%
All of it
16
29%
Parts of it
14
25%
Don't care
3
5%
 
Total votes: 56

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SKB
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BAE Systems plc

Post by SKB »

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Introduction
BAE Systems plc is a British multinational defence, security, and aerospace company. Its headquarters are in London in the United Kingdom and it has operations worldwide. It is among the world's largest defence companies; it was ranked as the third-largest based on applicable 2015 revenues. Its largest operations are in the United Kingdom and United States, where its BAE Systems Inc. subsidiary is one of the six largest suppliers to the US Department of Defense. Other major markets include Australia, India and Saudi Arabia. The company was formed on 30 November 1999 by the £7.7 billion merger of two British companies: Marconi Electronic Systems (MES) – the defence electronics and naval shipbuilding subsidiary of the General Electric Company plc (GEC) – and British Aerospace (BAe) – an aircraft, munitions and naval systems manufacturer.

BAE Systems is the successor to various aircraft, shipbuilding, armoured vehicle, armaments and defence electronics companies, including the Marconi Company, the first commercial company devoted to the development and use of radio; A.V. Roe and Company, one of the world's first aircraft companies; de Havilland, manufacturer of the Comet, the world's first commercial jet airliner; British Aircraft Corporation, co-manufacturer of the Concorde supersonic transport; Supermarine, manufacturer of the Spitfire; Yarrow Shipbuilders, builder of the Royal Navy's first destroyers; Fairfield Shipbuilding and Engineering Company, pioneer of the triple-expansion engine and builder of the world's first battlecruiser; and Vickers Shipbuilding and Engineering, builder of the Royal Navy's first submarines. Since its formation it has made a number of acquisitions, most notably of United Defense and Armor Holdings of the United States, and sold its shares in Airbus, Astrium, AMS and Atlas Elektronik.

BAE Systems is involved in several major defence projects, including the Lockheed Martin F-35 Lightning II, the Eurofighter Typhoon, the Astute-class submarine and the Queen Elizabeth-class aircraft carriers. BAE Systems is listed on the London Stock Exchange and is a constituent of the FTSE 100 Index.


Formation
The 1997 merger of American corporations Boeing and McDonnell Douglas, which followed the forming of Lockheed Martin, the world's largest defence contractor in 1995, increased the pressure on European defence companies to consolidate. In June 1997 British Aerospace Defence managing director John Weston commented "Europe... is supporting three times the number of contractors on less than half the budget of the U.S.". European governments wished to see the merger of their defence manufacturers into a single entity, a European Aerospace and Defence Company.

As early as 1995 British Aerospace and the German aerospace and defence company DaimlerChrysler Aerospace (DASA) were said to be keen to create a transnational aerospace and defence company. The two companies envisaged including Aérospatiale, the other major European aerospace company, but only after its privatisation. The first stage of this integration was seen as the transformation of Airbus from a consortium of British Aerospace, DASA, Aérospatiale and Construcciones Aeronáuticas SA into an integrated company; in this aim British Aerospace and DASA were united against the various objections of Aérospatiale. As well as Airbus, British Aerospace and DASA were partners in the Panavia Tornado and Eurofighter Typhoon aircraft projects. Merger discussions began between British Aerospace and DASA in July 1998, just as French participation became more likely with the announcement that Aérospatiale was to merge with Matra and emerge with a diluted French government shareholding. A merger was agreed between British Aerospace chairman Richard Evans and DASA CEO Jürgen Schrempp in December 1998.

Meanwhile, GEC was also under pressure to participate in defence industry consolidation. Reporting the appointment of George Simpson as GEC managing director in 1996, The Independent had said "some analysts believe that Mr Simpson's inside knowledge of BAe, a long-rumoured GEC bid target, was a key to his appointment. GEC favours forging a national 'champion' defence group with BAe to compete with the giant US organisations." When GEC put MES up for sale on 22 December 1998, British Aerospace abandoned the DASA merger in favour of purchasing its British rival. The merger of British Aerospace and MES was announced on 19 January 1999. Evans stated that in 2004 that his fear was that an American defence contractor would acquire MES and challenge both British Aerospace and DASA. The merger created a vertically integrated company which The Scotsman described as "[a combination of British Aerospace's] contracting and platform-building skills with Marconi's coveted electronics systems capability", for example combining the manufacturer of the Eurofighter with the company that provided many of the aircraft's electronic systems; British Aerospace was MES' largest customer. In contrast, DASA's response to the breakdown of the merger discussion was to merge with Aérospatiale to create the European Aeronautic Defence and Space Company (EADS), a horizontal integration. EADS has since considered a merger with Thales to create a "fully rounded" company.

Seventeen undertakings were given by BAE Systems to the Department of Trade and Industry which prevented a reference of the merger to the Monopolies and Mergers Commission. These were largely to ensure that the integrated company would tender sub-contracts to external companies on an equal basis with its subsidiaries. Another condition was the "firewalling" of former British Aerospace and MES teams on defence projects such as the Joint Strike Fighter (JSF). In 2007 the government, on advice from the Office of Fair Trading, announced it had agreed to release BAE Systems from ten of the undertakings due to "a change in circumstances".

BAE Systems inherited the UK government owned "golden" share that was established when British Aerospace was privatised. This unique share prevents amendments of certain parts of the company's Articles of Association without the permission of the Secretary of State.[8] These Articles require that no foreign person or persons acting together may hold more than 15% of the company's shares or control the majority of the board and that the CEO and the Chairman of BAE Systems must be British nationals.

British Aerospace's head office was in Warwick House, Farnborough Aerospace Centre in Farnborough, Hampshire. BAE Systems retains this but the registered office, and base for the senior leadership team, is in the City of Westminster.


Products
BAE Systems plays a significant role in the production of military equipment. In 2008, 95% of BAE Systems' total sales were military related.

It plays important roles in military aircraft production. The company's Typhoon fighter and Tornado fighter-bomber are both front line aircraft of the RAF. The company is a major partner in the F-35 Lightning II programme. Its Hawk advanced jet trainer aircraft has been widely exported. In July 2006, the British government declassified the HERTI (High Endurance Rapid Technology Insertion), an Unmanned Aerial Vehicle (UAV) which can navigate autonomously.

BAE Systems Land and Armaments manufactures the M2/M3 Bradley fighting vehicle family, the US Navy Advanced Gun System (AGS), M113 armoured personnel carrier (APC), M109 Paladin, M777 howitzer, the British Army's Challenger II, Warrior Tracked Armoured Vehicle, Panther Command and Liaison Vehicle, and the SA80

Major naval projects include the Astute-class nuclear submarine, Type 45 air defence destroyer and Queen Elizabeth-class aircraft carrier.

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Re: BAE Systems plc

Post by ArmChairCivvy »

The only thing they haven't managed yet is the engines for their stealth fighter
- had to actually buy some from a factory near Moscow

As BAE can't help, I'm sure our RR will set up a factory "for an expanding market"...or, "civilian airliners"
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Re: BAE Systems plc

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Re: BAE Systems plc

Post by dmereifield »

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-37575599

Negotiations on-going for sale of 48 typhoons

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Re: BAE Systems plc

Post by shark bait »

Also noticed they are on a PR push with typhoons for Belgium. Hope they can seal the deal and keep the production lines going.
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Re: BAE Systems plc

Post by dmereifield »

shark bait wrote:Also noticed they are on a PR push with typhoons for Belgium. Hope they can seal the deal and keep the production lines going.
Didn't see that. Do you think it is likely? Would only be a dozen or so I guess. Would they go with the UK build - or perhaps one of the other partners given the whole EU/Brexit thing?

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Re: BAE Systems plc

Post by shark bait »

Take a look at BAE Systems Belgium (@BAES_Belgium): https://twitter.com/BAES_Belgium?s=09


And here
http://ift.tt/2dOgdsQ

It's BaE and HMG making the offer so I assume that means UK assembly
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Re: BAE Systems plc

Post by dmereifield »

shark bait wrote:Take a look at BAE Systems Belgium (@BAES_Belgium): https://twitter.com/BAES_Belgium?s=09


And here
http://ift.tt/2dOgdsQ

It's BaE and HMG making the offer so I assume that means UK assembly
Thanks

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Re: BAE Systems plc

Post by dmereifield »

shark bait wrote:Take a look at BAE Systems Belgium (@BAES_Belgium): https://twitter.com/BAES_Belgium?s=09


And here
http://ift.tt/2dOgdsQ

It's BaE and HMG making the offer so I assume that means UK assembly
Thanks

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Re: BAE Systems plc

Post by dmereifield »

I didn't realise that they had about 60 fighters they are looking to replace. Could be a substantial order then. However, the BAE 12 page glossary doesn't convince me that there is enough in it, economically, for Belgium to justify paying for typhoons. Surely they'd go for something cheaper like new F16's, F18's, Gripen or the Rafale?Wouldn't be surprised to see the French get another export order

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Re: BAE Systems plc

Post by RetroSicotte »

There's really not a huge difference in pricing between the Rafale and the Typhoon. Enough that it's more about anciliary aspects that define their individual pricings. For example, if Belgium wants to stick with AMRAAM and Sidewinder, well, Typhoon has that covered, while they'd have to pay integration research costs for Rafale. If they want to change to MICA and Meteor, well then they'll also have to pay to replace their entire stockpile.

That sort of thing goes both ways for the planes, but thats just one example of where these things can significantly shift.

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Re: BAE Systems plc

Post by dmereifield »

Interesting stuff. Though I suppose most of their stocks would be compatible with the F18?

According to several sources the Belgians are after 34 new generation fighters. Which would seem to rule out like for like replacements with new F16s. Would be a cracking result if BAE could pull it off.

According to the been they have enough orders to keep the production line running for another 5 years, which is a bit of a surprise, most reports I read seemed to indicate they could only keep running to about 2019.

Perhaps the weak pound might help persuade the Belgians (or the Saudi's for that matter).

Possibly even an outside chance for the F35(?), which would still be a nice earner for BAE and UK Plc.

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Re: BAE Systems plc

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Re: BAE Systems plc

Post by Dahedd »

pretty OT, but seeing the shore based T45 setup in the above video makes me wonder how effective a few of these based around the UK coastline would be. Would we ever see the UK using fixed land based long range a2a missiles again?

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Re: BAE Systems plc

Post by Caribbean »

Dahedd wrote:pretty OT, but seeing the shore based T45 setup in the above video makes me wonder how effective a few of these based around the UK coastline would be. Would we ever see the UK using fixed land based long range a2a missiles again?
I have a vague recollection about the Government putting out an RFI for a UK land-based AD system around two tears ago - what happened to that?
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Re: BAE Systems plc

Post by ArmChairCivvy »

Caribbean wrote:
Dahedd wrote:pretty OT, but seeing the shore based T45 setup in the above video makes me wonder how effective a few of these based around the UK coastline would be. Would we ever see the UK using fixed land based long range a2a missiles again?
I have a vague recollection about the Government putting out an RFI for a UK land-based AD system around two tears ago - what happened to that?
@Dahedd, Aster 30 (SAMP-T) was a contender for defending a land area roughly the size of UK, and as I don't have that fancy tool for drawing ranges onto a map (TD's favourite) I decided to snatch this illustration of coverage with ten batteries
https://corporalfrisk.files.wordpress.c ... ter-30.jpg
- the system was not selected due to the price being so high that fighter-based defences would have been reduced to QRA
- a more mobile and networked system was selected instead, so that it could be field deployed quickly to where ever the land battle "schwerpunkt" might be developing

@ Caribbean, I think a few latest model Saab Giraffe radars were procured, to be integrated with CAMM (and be first deployed to the Falklands?)
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Re: BAE Systems plc

Post by Dahedd »

I'd have thought a land based T45 system would have been a no brainer, look on it as a post Brexit job creation scheme.

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Re: BAE Systems plc

Post by shark bait »

The French and the Italians have a ground based PAAMS system using aster missiles, so a land based T45 system already exists, the UK just didn't buy it.
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Re: BAE Systems plc

Post by marktigger »

how mobile is the Land based ASTER? the MoD requirement for the army was for a highly mobile platform

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Re: BAE Systems plc

Post by dmereifield »

Excuse the ignorance, as ever, but is this not something land ceptor will be able to do?

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Re: BAE Systems plc

Post by marktigger »

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aster_(mi ... 19_110.jpg

thats the Radar I think the Giraffe is a tad smaller

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Re: BAE Systems plc

Post by shark bait »

dmereifield wrote:Excuse the ignorance, as ever, but is this not something land ceptor will be able to do?
No, Aster is the next step up from CAMM, way more capable.
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Re: BAE Systems plc

Post by dmereifield »

shark bait wrote:
dmereifield wrote:Excuse the ignorance, as ever, but is this not something land ceptor will be able to do?
No, Aster is the next step up from CAMM, way more capable.
Thanks, I know Aster is more capable than CAMM, but I wondered if CAMM might be able to do the job? What are we using now, is it rapier?

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Re: BAE Systems plc

Post by ArmChairCivvy »

CAMM stats can be set against these:
. Aster 30 has the capability to intercept targets at altitudes from 50m to 20km. Against aircraft targets flying at altitudes above 3km, the maximum range of the Aster 30 is 100km. At aircraft targets with altitudes below 3km, the range of Aster 30 is 50km.
- notably a SAMP-T could be modified to deal with incoming Iskander; and CAMM... (perhaps ?)
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Re: BAE Systems plc

Post by shark bait »

dmereifield wrote: Thanks, I know Aster is more capable than CAMM, but I wondered if CAMM might be able to do the job? What are we using now, is it rapier?
We are using rapier now, which CAMM will replace. The UK has no equivalent to the PAAMS system in a land application, which with the coming blocks of Aster will be capable of ballistic missile defence.

Aster has greater range, manoeuvrability, accuracy and price than CAMM, they are different classes of system.
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