NEDERLANDS

News and discussion threads on defence in other parts of the world.
Blackstone
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Re: NEDERLANDS

Post by Blackstone »

ArmChairCivvy wrote:
Halidon wrote:Naval Group boat is just so nice
How close is this one to the Bluefin Barracuda? A la Oz spec
Shortfin Barracuda.

To my knowledge, Naval Group hasn't released enough detail of it's Dutch pitch to pick apart potential differences. For the time being, the sub they're showing bears quite a strong resemblance to the Attack class. Given that the KM also wants pretty long range and good legs on their boats, and doesn't want to pay a lot of duplicate development costs, it may be that there's not much changed from the Aussie boats.

I wonder if Naval Group is only pushing their own combat system or are they talking up the design's ability to take AN/BYG-1as it is down under.

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ArmChairCivvy
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Re: NEDERLANDS

Post by ArmChairCivvy »

Blackstone wrote:I wonder if Naval Group is only pushing their own combat system or are they talking up the design's ability to take AN/BYG-1as it is down under.
A good point; isn't the one on the Spanish boats (for their own navy) from the US? "Flight2" could different, of course.
- And in the opening of xav's video report a screen from the conference where it was projected in a "big way" says : defence to maximise buys from the Dutch industry
Ever-lasting truths: Multi-year budgets/ planning by necessity have to address the painful questions; more often than not the Either-Or prevails over Both-And.
If everyone is thinking the same, then someone is not thinking (attributed to Patton)

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xav
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Re: NEDERLANDS

Post by xav »


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xav
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Re: NEDERLANDS

Post by xav »

Dutch MoD Issues B-Letter for Walrus SSK Replacement: Naval Group, Saab & TKMS Shortlisted
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The Dutch Ministry of Defense today issued the B-Letter for the Walrus-class submarine replacement program confirming its intent to procure 4 new submarines and shortlisting three shipbuilders for this procurement process: Naval Group, Saab and TKMS.

This leaves Spanish shipbuilder Navantia out of the race. The competition now enters a “knock-out” phase, with the contract award (D-Letter) expected some time around 2022.
https://www.navalnews.com/naval-news/20 ... ortlisted/

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xav
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Re: NEDERLANDS

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ArmChairCivvy
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Re: NEDERLANDS

Post by ArmChairCivvy »

A nice (informative) vid
- I bet torpedo-mines will make a comeback
- as the MCM solution is a system of systems, it would be only logical to try and take the central node out
Ever-lasting truths: Multi-year budgets/ planning by necessity have to address the painful questions; more often than not the Either-Or prevails over Both-And.
If everyone is thinking the same, then someone is not thinking (attributed to Patton)

Lord Jim
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Re: NEDERLANDS

Post by Lord Jim »

Would these make a good replacement for our MCVs. Together with the T-26 and its "Mission Bay" and using common UUVs we would have a scalable capability for different theatres and threat levels.

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xav
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Re: NEDERLANDS

Post by xav »

Leonardo to Supply New 127mm Main Guns for Netherlands Navy’s LCF Frigates
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The Dutch Defence Material Organisation (DMO) announced that it has selected Italian company Leonardo to supply new 127mm naval gun systems for the Royal Netherlands Navy's four De Zeven Provinciën-class LCF frigates.
https://www.navalnews.com/naval-news/20 ... -frigates/

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ArmChairCivvy
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Re: NEDERLANDS

Post by ArmChairCivvy »

Quite a list (additional to the gun upgrade; from the above article):
new radar is capable of BMD mission (surveillance and tracking of ballistic missiles) up to 2000 km while simultaneous maintaining the air defence capability.

The LCF mordernization effort includes other systems: Plans were announced in 2018 to acquire the BMD-capable SM-3 surface-to-air missiles (these plans still need to be confirmed). De Zeven Provinciën-class frigates can pass on the tracking and detection data to other sea-based or land-defense BMD assets, including U.S. Navy’s warships, that can deal with a ballistic missile threat.

On 3 May 2018 the Dutch Secretary of Defence, Barbara Visser, informed the Dutch national parliament that the Raytheon evolved sea sparrow missile (ESSM) aboard the De Zeven Provinciën-class frigates will be upgraded from block 1 to block 2. This upgrade will be completed by 2024 along with a new anti-ship missile (to replace the existing Harpoon). Lastly, the Thales Goalkeepers CIWS will be upgraded to a new version.
Ever-lasting truths: Multi-year budgets/ planning by necessity have to address the painful questions; more often than not the Either-Or prevails over Both-And.
If everyone is thinking the same, then someone is not thinking (attributed to Patton)

walter
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Re: NEDERLANDS

Post by walter »

Hi all,I'm new here.

Will give some "extra" news from a Dutch perspective :)

latest rendering for the "M"class replacement(it's from the end of 2019;

The things that are known it will get(still a lot open/unknown)

callsign
Name
In Service
out of service
?
?
2025
-
?
?
2026
-

dimensions
134 x 17,1 x 7
Max. diplacement
5475-5800 ton(probably closer to 6000 ton)
Max. speed
?
crew
115 (extra according to mission)
propulsion
?
weaponsystems
VLS ready for ESSM Block 2 and possibly SM-3, SM-2, VLA
New SSM
New CIWS (replacement Goalkeeper)
1 canon
Torpedo's
possibly lasercanon in the future
Sensors
Navigationradars
Hullsonar
Towed sonar

Integrated sensor suite with:
X en S-band radar
EO/ IR camera's
IFF
ESM
AIS
additional units
1x NH90 helikopter
Possible UAV
2x FRISC
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walter
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Re: NEDERLANDS

Post by walter »

And an update on the to be build CSS ship "Den-Helder.(picture below)


Berichten: 9355


Re: Het Combat Support Ship (CSS)
« Reactie #748 Gepost op: Vandaag om 03:34 pm »

Citaat
Via DSNS linkedin

Damen-built Combat Support Ship (CSS) Moving Ahead with New Contracts Signed

Schiedam-based Hatenboer-Water will deliver two complete reverse osmosis units for the CSS in August 2021. A durable installation for safe and reliable drinking water production in varying conditions - cold (Arctic), warm (tropical) and/or coastal waters - the units supplied by Hatenboer are maintenance-friendly, have a relatively low energy consumption and use biodegradable chemicals.
With roots dating back to 1906, Hatenboer is a long-term partner of Damen Shipyards Group, having supplied equipment to all naval vessels built by Damen Schelde Naval Shipbuilding in the last twenty years, both for the Royal Netherlands Navy and for navies of other countries. Moreover, Hatenboer has been assisting the Royal Netherlands Navy with water management in the last few decades, contributing to a safer working and living environment on board their ships.
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ArmChairCivvy
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Re: NEDERLANDS

Post by ArmChairCivvy »

well, the Dutch don't hang about:
"For the design the Damen LSV 19000 was used and large parts were taken from the JSS Karel Doorman design. The ships design was finished within 2 years from the start of the project."
- take a commercial hull and fit it with (mainly) existing systems
- we did something similar (a quick thought, though we did it "in reverse") with HMS Ocean: take the thru-deck cruiser hull and build from there up to mainly commercial stds... worked out well! For that role; not a panacea.
Ever-lasting truths: Multi-year budgets/ planning by necessity have to address the painful questions; more often than not the Either-Or prevails over Both-And.
If everyone is thinking the same, then someone is not thinking (attributed to Patton)

walter
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Re: NEDERLANDS

Post by walter »

So we went from this.(design 2019)

1-multi mission Bay gone

2-Rhibs 7 mtrs instead of 12 mtrs Frisc

3-No possibillity to increase the number of VLS cells.

Although If you need extra VLS, you can also choose to place the Adaptable Deck Launcher on the hangar.

https://www.baesystems.com/en-us/produc ... k-launcher

https://www.navyrecognition.com/index.p ... ncher.html

4-Bow screw gone
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walter
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Re: NEDERLANDS

Post by walter »

To This;(final design 24/06/20)

133 mtrs,5500 tonns ASW frigate(replacement M-class)

This is what certain to be on the ship:(a lot is unknown)



A few systems are certain. Zuiddam: "ESSM Block 2 is simply in the order. So there will be a VLS [vertical launcher, ] and you have to control that chain. You do that with sensors based on AWWS(Above Water Warfare Suite), which are now being developed with the latest techniques and latest Threat Scenarios. The same system will be deployed on the German MKS 180 frigates, including APAR Block 2. " This makes the new frigates a big step forward compared to the M frigates, which do not have such an advanced radar as APAR. This is therefore the successor of the APAR on the LCFs.

At the heart of the ship is a renewed LFAPS, Low Frequency Active Passive Sonar. A sonar that can ping submarines at low frequencies. Because it is left behind in the water, it is also possible to search under temperature layers. Thanks to the low frequency, submarines can be detected very well. The LFAPS is a largely Dutch development, for which there is very much interest from other countries. However, the Netherlands does not want to share that knowledge with many countries.

Rob Zuiddam is projectleader "replacement M-Class"

Also it seems that there will be a 16 cells Vls,that's the number i keep hearing.

Price is to be around the 500 million Euros mark.

https://www.navalnews.com/naval-news/20 ... ts-delays/

Lord Jim
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Re: NEDERLANDS

Post by Lord Jim »

The Dutch do know how to build decent warships even if they do not build as many as they used to. But yet again a country is able to design a new Warship and plans to get it into serve far faster than we are managing because of our artificially slow T-26 programme.

walter
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Re: NEDERLANDS

Post by walter »

Lord Jim wrote:The Dutch do know how to build decent warships even if they do not build as many as they used to. But yet again a country is able to design a new Warship and plans to get it into serve far faster than we are managing because of our artificially slow T-26 programme.
True,it's hard for every country,it seems, to get what they want and enough of them.

France, Italy and the UK were already unable to purchase their desired numbers of first line / 'Swiss pocket knives' in the form of FREMMs or Type 26.
So second line solutions in the form of FTI, PPA and Type 31 were introduced.
Although the Type 31 is rather a 'third line' solution, being an OPV + or OPV ++.(in my opinion)
We and Belgium do not have the size or budget for high / low frigate mix. So we have to compromise.The FTI measures 122 meters and approx. 4,250 tons and can be scaled up to a length of 134 meters.
As far as I can see, the (hopefully) "good enough" solution has been found with the design of 133 meters and 5,500 tons on 24-06-20.
Which offers value for its price and is also attractive for export customers.

And here's the "proof"for that (the attractiveness for export)

International interest
And maybe there will be more than four. Because there is certainly one seriously interested "from Europe" to participate. De Waard and Zuiddam cannot say which country it concerns. "It is not public," says Zuiddam. "But a formal letter has been sent by that country. So we have to wait a while, although it can be completed within six months."

It is not new that there is interest from abroad in the replacement of the M-frigates. However, the interest is so concrete. Countries such as Portugal (which is very satisfied with the M-frigates and the current modernization) and Norway (which had ideas to replace the sunken frigate Helge Ingstad with two new frigates) have been mentioned for some time.

If three European countries purchase the same new frigates, this is very good news for the project and a special event in the history of European frigate construction

If this would happen,more countries bying the vMFF,a Batch 2 is possible

The possible "Batch 2"could replace the Hollands,2 more of these "puppies"and maybe 2 smaller patrol boats,like say a Stan 5509 ;)

That would give us 8 Frigates,2 more then we have now(looking a bit more decent as a navy)

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ArmChairCivvy
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Re: NEDERLANDS

Post by ArmChairCivvy »

walter wrote:Price is to be around the 500 million Euros mark.

https://www.navalnews.com/naval-news/20 ... ts-delays/
Designed to cost; the same kind of exercise thru which we got the T31. will be interesting as the timelines are so similar
Ever-lasting truths: Multi-year budgets/ planning by necessity have to address the painful questions; more often than not the Either-Or prevails over Both-And.
If everyone is thinking the same, then someone is not thinking (attributed to Patton)

walter
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Re: NEDERLANDS

Post by walter »

Belgian-Dutch Mine Counter Measure (MCM) Program Achieves New Milestone

On May 23, a new contractual milestone was reached as part of the Belgian-Dutch Mine Counter Measure (MCM) program: Exactly one year after notification of the contract in 2019, the program successfully passed the "Systems Functional Review" phase.

In the midst of the COVID-19 health crisis, the teams of Belgium Naval & Robotics and of the binational defense project have reached a new milestone: “Systems Functional Review”. This evaluation makes it possible to validate the functional and architectural studies of all the systems of MCM vessels developed by Naval Group such as computer networks, electrical installations, propulsion systems or combat systems, as well as those of all unmanned systems developed by ECA Group. This review also focused on the system of systems that provides mission management, communications and cybersecurity, as well as on the integration of the unmanned systems aboard the ship.

“This milestone represents an important step because it demonstrates that the systems architecture of the armed ship meets the functional requirements of our Belgian and Dutch customers,”

Eric Perrot, MCM program director at Naval Group.


“The requirement and the rigor of the client when passing these milestones are essential; we can thus approach the next phases of the program in good conditions”

Jean-Louis Sambarino, MCM program director at ECA Group.


“The COVID-19 challenge was resolutely taken up and mastered by Belgium Naval & Robotics and our binational project team. The flexibility, diligence and professionalism of both parties were the ingredients necessary for the success of this important step in the contractual deadlines. The constructive atmosphere and expertise of Belgium Naval & Robotics inspires confidence in the prospect of the next milestone this fall. “

Commander Claude Bultot, program director for the Belgian and Dutch navies


Next phase: Preliminary Design Review

In charge of the preliminary design of the ships, Naval Group works in close collaboration with Kership who will carry out the detailed design of the ships and their construction. Kership’s activities will start after passing the Preliminary Design Review milestone, which is scheduled for December 2020.

The contract for twelve MCM vessels for the Belgian and Dutch navies will span over ten years. After a design period of three years, Belgium Naval & Robotics will move on to the production phase of these ships and unmanned systems, with an initial delivery scheduled for 2024. Six ships will be delivered to the Belgian navy and six to the Dutch navy ; They will be equipped with complete drone systems (Toolbox) containing a total of more than a hundred underwater, surface and aerial drones entirely dedicated to mine hunting.

https://www.navalnews.com/naval-news/20 ... milestone/

Defiance
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Re: NEDERLANDS

Post by Defiance »

Dutch F-35As are the first F-35 deployment to the NATO Southern Air Policing task - 2 F-35A will be sent to Graf Ignatievo Air Base in Bulgaria to work alongside Romanian F-16s and Bulgarian MiG-29s to conduct QRA tasking

https://www.janes.com/defence-news/defe ... cing-debut

Comment amended - it's not happened yet, but it will happen in Q2 2022

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Re: NEDERLANDS

Post by lordroel »

Defiance wrote: 21 Jan 2022, 21:23 Dutch F-35As are the first F-35 deployment to the NATO Southern Air Policing task - 2 F-35A were sent to Graf Ignatievo Air Base in Bulgaria to work alongside Romanian F-16s and Bulgarian MiG-29s to conduct QRA tasking

https://www.janes.com/defence-news/defe ... cing-debut
Will happen in April and May, by that time the crisis in Ukraine might be over.

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Re: NEDERLANDS

Post by Defiance »

lordroel wrote: 22 Jan 2022, 12:35 Will happen in April and May, by that time the crisis in Ukraine might be over.
There's probably another force that has responsibility for the tasking until that time.

Did some digging and the last few rotations have been RAF (Typhoon) -> RCAF (F/A-18) -> Italy (Typhoon). 4 Italian Typhoons arrived in Romania in mid-December 2021 to take up the post for 4 months, so RNLAF F-35A's will replace Italian Typhoons later this year.

It'll be interesting to hear how 2 F-35A's manage, the common deployment has been 4 from other forces
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Re: NEDERLANDS

Post by lordroel »

Defiance wrote: 22 Jan 2022, 12:42
lordroel wrote: 22 Jan 2022, 12:35 Will happen in April and May, by that time the crisis in Ukraine might be over.
There's probably another force that has responsibility for the tasking until that time.

Did some digging and the last few rotations have been RAF (Typhoon) -> RCAF (F/A-18) -> Italy (Typhoon). 4 Italian Typhoons arrived in Romania in mid-December 2021 to take up the post for 4 months, so RNLAF F-35A's will replace Italian Typhoons later this year.

It'll be interesting to hear how 2 F-35A's manage, the common deployment has been 4 from other forces
Well the Royal Netherlands Air force is not big any more, so 2 is what we can deploy in peacetime.

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Tempest414
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Re: NEDERLANDS

Post by Tempest414 »

Plus the Romanian F-16 force is starting to get up to speed

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Jensy
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Re: NEDERLANDS

Post by Jensy »

A small but good win for Embraer - especially considering the end of their joint venture with Boeing:



Five KC-390s will be replacing four J model Hercs.

Will be joining Portugal and Hungary to become the third European user, with deliveries to Portugal set to begin next year and Hungary in 2024.

Considering the tragic fate and medium term future of Antonov, there might well be a market for a Hercules replacement, which isn't the size and cost of the A400m or another Hercules.
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Re: NEDERLANDS

Post by wargame_insomniac »

It all the more frustrating that RAF has decided to retire it's own C130's without equivalent replacement.

Whilst C17 Globemasters and A400M are great at larger scale strategic mobility, the C130 should still have a use in more smaller scale tactical mobilities as it can land on small rough airstrips, and being smaller and cheaper could b spread around to more locations without having to utilise the larger strategic airlift aircraft.

Retiring early the rest of the UK's C130 fleet in 2023 feels a huge mistake, especially given the lessons of Ukraine war in terms of logistics.

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