Gibraltar (Political Thread)

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SKB
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Gibraltar (Political Thread)

Post by SKB »

Britain rejects Spain's talk of joint sovereignty for Gibraltar
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The governments of the UK and Gibraltar have flatly rejected Madrid’s suggestion that the Brexit vote could lead to shared sovereignty of the British territory and may even pave the way for its eventual return to Spain.

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2016/ ... overeignty

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Galloglass
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Re: Gibraltar (Political Thread)

Post by Galloglass »

The Spaniards will just build a wall and wait.... a la Trump

S M H
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Re: Gibraltar (Political Thread)

Post by S M H »

The Spanish government just need to shut the gates like last time I was there when they reopened them There is actually two sets of gates one on each side of the line of demarcation. The last closure was a mitigated disaster for the Spanish workers and the area over the border. The majority of jobs were taken by Moroccans and Gibraltar survived. The closure caused the Gibraltarians to be even more pro British. Completely defeating the objective.

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SKB
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Re: Gibraltar (Political Thread)

Post by SKB »

Gibraltar ready for triggering of Article 50

Gibraltar is ready for the UK to trigger Article 50 and has been for some time. This according to the Deputy Chief Minister, who says the Rock has been involved in the process of negotiation with Britain.


Robin Walker visits the Rock

The Undersecretary of State for exiting the European Union, Robin Walker, is in Gibraltar on a 24 hour familiarisation visit. Mr Walker who chairs the Joint Ministerial Committee on EU Exit between the UK and Gibraltar governments, arrived on the evening of the 14th March.

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SKB
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Re: Gibraltar (Political Thread)

Post by SKB »

'Gibraltar is a key part of the British Family' says Brexit Minister

Gibraltar is a key part of the UK’s negotiations with the European Union following its exit, and is considered part of the British family. That is the assurance given to the Rock by the Undersecretary of State, Robin Walker. Mr Walker held a brief press conference at Number Six Convent Place as part of his 24 hour visit. He said Gibraltar’s priorities will be taken on board in the exit process.

And as the Queen gave Royal Assent to the Brexit Bill, Mr Walker met with representative organisations at the Garrison Library, where he confirmed the UK was working towards giving Gibraltar continued market access to the UK after withdrawal from the EU was complete.

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Galloglass
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Re: Gibraltar (Political Thread)

Post by Galloglass »

"And as the Queen gave Royal Assent to the Brexit Bill, Mr Walker met with representative organisations at the Garrison Library, where he confirmed the UK was working towards giving Gibraltar continued market access to the UK after withdrawal from the EU was complete."

Hi SKB.....That strikes me as odd. Is there a problem with Gib accessing the UK market after Brexit?

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SKB
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Re: Gibraltar (Political Thread)

Post by SKB »

No. "working towards giving Gibraltar continued market access" - just continuing what access they already have. It was a statement of reassurance following future Brexit. Remember, Gibraltar is not part of the UK, it's a 'British Overseas Territory' and a country in its own right, with its own economics, markets and currency seperate of those of the UK.

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Re: Gibraltar (Political Thread)

Post by SKB »

Brexit: Gibraltar lowers EU flag, and raises Commonwealth flag.


(Gibraltar Chronicle) 1st February 2020
The European Union flag was lowered at the border at midnight last night, signalling the moment Gibraltar left the bloc alongside the UK after three tortuous years of political drama and bitter division.
Image
^ Flag of the Commonwealth of Nations, which has 54 members, a population of 2.4 billion people, and a growing $13 trillion economy, and covers 20% of the Earth's land surface - all larger than the EU.

Commonwealth thread: https://www.ukdefenceforum.net/viewtopi ... 40#p102440

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ArmChairCivvy
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Re: Gibraltar (Political Thread)

Post by ArmChairCivvy »

SKB wrote:No. "working towards giving Gibraltar continued market access" - just continuing what access they already have.
The challenge is in them trying to do "an NI"
= have access to EU AND have continued, unhindered, no bureaucracy access to the UK.
Ever-lasting truths: Multi-year budgets/ planning by necessity have to address the painful questions; more often than not the Either-Or prevails over Both-And.
If everyone is thinking the same, then someone is not thinking (attributed to Patton)

zanahoria
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Re: Gibraltar (Political Thread)

Post by zanahoria »

ArmChairCivvy wrote:
SKB wrote:No. "working towards giving Gibraltar continued market access" - just continuing what access they already have.
The challenge is in them trying to do "an NI"
= have access to EU AND have continued, unhindered, no bureaucracy access to the UK.
Looks like they may have found a way:

https://english.elpais.com/brexit/2020- ... ssion=true

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ArmChairCivvy
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Re: Gibraltar (Political Thread)

Post by ArmChairCivvy »

Splendid:

"This means that people landing in the Rock, as Gibraltar is popularly known, could later move freely across the Schengen Area without going through passport control. Gibraltarians have never had this kind of open access to Europe, as the UK never signed the Schengen agreement. From Gibraltar airport, it would also be possible to fly to the 26 members of Schengen.

The main sticking point is who will conduct these passport checks of people arriving in Gibraltar by sea or air. Spain has accepted that, for a transitional period at least, it will not be Spanish police officers but Frontex agents"

Of the 30 mln border crossings per year, the vast majority is Spaniards going to work (and back). Franco managed to impoverish the areas they come from, with his border blockade, and to a degree the replacement was people ferry-commuting from Morocco.
Ever-lasting truths: Multi-year budgets/ planning by necessity have to address the painful questions; more often than not the Either-Or prevails over Both-And.
If everyone is thinking the same, then someone is not thinking (attributed to Patton)

zanahoria
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Re: Gibraltar (Political Thread)

Post by zanahoria »

It’s just wonderful. If I didn’t know any better, I would start to think that those who are pursuing Brexit do not have the best interests of the United Kingdom at heart.

Although perhaps I’ve got the wrong end of the stick and Gibraltar is now surplus to UK strategic requirements, with these being the first steps in cementing a new “special relationship” with Spain.

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Re: Gibraltar (Political Thread)

Post by Caribbean »

I think the key point is the fact that the Spanish have accepted that negotiations should be tri-lateral and include representatives from Gibraltar, so that this arrangement is effectively being negotiated directly with the Gibraltar government, something that they have refused to accept in the past. By doing so, they have effectively accepted the legitimacy of the Gibraltar Government and also apparently put aside their claim to sovereignty in Gibraltar. Once that genie is out of the bottle, they are going to find it difficult to stuff that particular cork back in.
The pessimist sees difficulty in every opportunity. The optimist sees the opportunity in every difficulty.
Winston Churchill

zanahoria
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Re: Gibraltar (Political Thread)

Post by zanahoria »

Caribbean wrote: By doing so, they have effectively accepted the legitimacy of the Gibraltar Government and also apparently put aside their claim to sovereignty in Gibraltar. Once that genie is out of the bottle, they are going to find it difficult to stuff that particular cork back in.
Fair point. My concern would still be that with Gibraltar in Schengen she will become more closely aligned with Spain than the UK, with all the ramifications that might bring regarding unfettered access to the RN in the future.

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Re: Gibraltar (Political Thread)

Post by Pseudo »

zanahoria wrote:
Caribbean wrote: By doing so, they have effectively accepted the legitimacy of the Gibraltar Government and also apparently put aside their claim to sovereignty in Gibraltar. Once that genie is out of the bottle, they are going to find it difficult to stuff that particular cork back in.
Fair point. My concern would still be that with Gibraltar in Schengen she will become more closely aligned with Spain than the UK, with all the ramifications that might bring regarding unfettered access to the RN in the future.
Might I suggest that Spain might be pursuing a longer-term "peel and steal" strategy. By being reasonable now they strengthen Gibraltar's economic and social ties to them at the expense of the UK. The idea that give it a few of generations and Gibraltarians will be so integrated with Spain that they'll wonder why they're not just part of Spain.

It's far from a perfect plan, but I wouldn't blame them for giving it a go because nothing else has worked for them in the last three-hundred years.

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Re: Gibraltar (Political Thread)

Post by zanahoria »

Pseudo wrote:Might I suggest that Spain might be pursuing a longer-term "peel and steal" strategy...
Precisely this.

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Re: Gibraltar (Political Thread)

Post by ArmChairCivvy »

The walk-across-the-frontier (not much different from how it has worked at most times) may hit the tax-free shops on the main street, but otherwise Gib's services are not threatened in the same way as Britain's (by Brexit);GDP - composition by sector:
agriculture: 0% (2016 est.)
industry: 0% (2008 est.)
services: 100% (2016 est.)
and the cluster of them creates wealth on the Spanish side (in an area that otherwise would look much disadvantaged compared to the tourism in the Malaga direction and agriculture when nearing Jerez).
- the nationalistic jingoism normally originates from Madrid, from whichever party happens to be A. in power and B. wanting to distract from some other problems

Trying to say that he new status quo might well be v permanent.
Ever-lasting truths: Multi-year budgets/ planning by necessity have to address the painful questions; more often than not the Either-Or prevails over Both-And.
If everyone is thinking the same, then someone is not thinking (attributed to Patton)

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Re: Gibraltar (Political Thread)

Post by Caribbean »

Pseudo wrote: The idea that give it a few of generations and Gibraltarians will be so integrated with Spain that they'll wonder why they're not just part of Spain.
To be fair - that's a decision for the Gibraltarians. The UK has been consistent in saying that. Up 'til now, it's the Spanish who have denied that the Gibraltarians have a right to self-determination
The pessimist sees difficulty in every opportunity. The optimist sees the opportunity in every difficulty.
Winston Churchill

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Re: Gibraltar (Political Thread)

Post by Pseudo »

Caribbean wrote:
Pseudo wrote: The idea that give it a few of generations and Gibraltarians will be so integrated with Spain that they'll wonder why they're not just part of Spain.
To be fair - that's a decision for the Gibraltarians. The UK has been consistent in saying that. Up 'til now, it's the Spanish who have denied that the Gibraltarians have a right to self-determination
Absolutely. For one, I am very proud that the British government has always demonstrated its commitment the right of self-determination through legal means and provided those means in the last century or so that I'd describe as its recent history.

Though admittedly, I would have preferred to keep Malta.;)

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Re: Gibraltar (Political Thread)

Post by ArmChairCivvy »

Pseudo wrote: has always demonstrated its commitment the right of self-determination through legal means
Someone on the forum pointed out that the way HK passports were handled (at the time; not talking about the current initiative) sent a wrong signal to Buenos Aires about the intended status for the good folks on the Falkland Islands.
Ever-lasting truths: Multi-year budgets/ planning by necessity have to address the painful questions; more often than not the Either-Or prevails over Both-And.
If everyone is thinking the same, then someone is not thinking (attributed to Patton)

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Re: Gibraltar (Political Thread)

Post by Scimitar54 »

I think you (and they) have got the timeline wrong! “The Falklands” Invasion pre-dated the issue of and discussion about; British Oversea Passports by around 3 to 5 years IIRC. :mrgreen:

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Re: Gibraltar (Political Thread)

Post by ArmChairCivvy »

Timeline is exactly what it says on the 'tin' - a continuum that connects arbitrary dots.

The dots I chose were:
- After passage of the British Nationality Act 1981, CUKCs [ a common nationality: Citizens of the United Kingdom and Colonies] were reclassified into different nationality groups based on their ancestry and birthplace, and the vast majority of British subjects in Hong Kong became British Dependent Territories citizens (BDTCs) with the right of abode only in Hong Kong.
-Falklands invasion 2nd April 1982 (Op Rosario)

The passage of the law (text) was the message I was referring to. When the Junta read it in Buenos Aires they started to see a way out of their mounting domestic troubles. Sprinkle into that reading of the wider political intent what was happening to the RN carriers, and the unintended consequences (reacting to what was going to happen with HK after HMG had adopted a new negotiating stance there) started to snowball
... and the rest is history = many more dots we could put onto the time line - in the right order ;)

I could contribute the lesson (that I overheard) given to a rookie immigration officer on the India-Pakistan border in 1976, while having to wait a couple of hours for the connecting transport. It was about how to deal with A passports and B passports (mess) deriving from an earlier decolonialisation... mess
Ever-lasting truths: Multi-year budgets/ planning by necessity have to address the painful questions; more often than not the Either-Or prevails over Both-And.
If everyone is thinking the same, then someone is not thinking (attributed to Patton)

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Re: Gibraltar (Political Thread)

Post by Caribbean »

On the Gibraltar issue, it occurs to me that, once the Spanish have, de facto, accepted the principle of self-determination, they may be compelled to accept it, should the Gibraltarian Government then sign a Sovereign Base agreement with the UK "in perpetuity". :twisted:
The pessimist sees difficulty in every opportunity. The optimist sees the opportunity in every difficulty.
Winston Churchill

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Re: Gibraltar (Political Thread)

Post by ArmChairCivvy »

Caribbean wrote:compelled to accept it, should the Gibraltarian Government then sign a Sovereign Base agreement with the UK "in perpetuity".
On these pages I have entertained the same kind of idea for Faslane ( under an independence scenario).
- but confused of the time order implied in the above, with
-- 'compelled' and 'then sign'
Ever-lasting truths: Multi-year budgets/ planning by necessity have to address the painful questions; more often than not the Either-Or prevails over Both-And.
If everyone is thinking the same, then someone is not thinking (attributed to Patton)

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Re: Gibraltar (Political Thread)

Post by Caribbean »

ArmChairCivvy wrote:compelled to accept it, should the Gibraltarian Government then sign a Sovereign Base agreement with the UK "in perpetuity".
perhaps that should have read "..... compelled to accept WHEN the Gibraltarian Government sign .....". I just didn't want to imply that the Gibraltar Gov was certain to do so, only that it might, and if it did, then the Spanish Government would be in a poor position as they might be seen as trying to "cherry pick" (to use a popular and contemporary phrase :) )which bits of sovereignty Gibraltar was entitled to exercise
The pessimist sees difficulty in every opportunity. The optimist sees the opportunity in every difficulty.
Winston Churchill

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