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News and discussion threads on defence in other parts of the world.
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ArmChairCivvy
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Re: DANEMARK

Post by ArmChairCivvy »

In the artillery competition, three remain for the finals:

"Dermed er kandidaterne i artilleriudbuddet reduceret til israelske Elbit Systems med ATMOS MAN HX81, sydkoreanske Hanwha Techwin med K9 Thunder og franske Nexter Systems med CAESAR 8×8 Tatra."

For those of you not fluent in Danish, they are:
- ATMOS (Israel)
- K9 (ROK)
and the Frenchie one, on a Czech carriage, with plenty of engine alternatives (so this is not the 6x6 variety, trialled by the RA)
Ever-lasting truths: Multi-year budgets/ planning by necessity have to address the painful questions; more often than not the Either-Or prevails over Both-And.
If everyone is thinking the same, then someone is not thinking (attributed to Patton)

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ArmChairCivvy
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Re: DANEMARK

Post by ArmChairCivvy »

ArmChairCivvy wrote:the Frenchie one, on a Czech carriage, with plenty of engine alternatives (so this is not the 6x6 variety, trialled by the RA)
This 8 x 8 on a Tatra chassis got its first customer:
http://krigeren.dk/valget-truffet-danma ... erisystem/

What the news piece does not say is that they will be paired with an equal number of 120 mm mortars to be installed on Piranha 5s, another "French" feature... i wonder if the fire control system for a whole battery offers turn-key integration and such offer was too good not to be taken (even if it will not be mortars of the French specification - which are of towed variety).
Ever-lasting truths: Multi-year budgets/ planning by necessity have to address the painful questions; more often than not the Either-Or prevails over Both-And.
If everyone is thinking the same, then someone is not thinking (attributed to Patton)

Frenchie
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Re: DANEMARK

Post by Frenchie »

Great for Denmark but we don't have the money to equip the French Army :roll:

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ArmChairCivvy
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Re: DANEMARK

Post by ArmChairCivvy »

The Danes could have skipped 60 years by buying this prototype from the ruins of their defeated neighbour
http://3mv.ru/_pu/89/34284610.jpg
looking so similar to the chosen French-Czech combo (and got a 15 mm bigger gun on the deal).
- see preivious link

Already by then the Germans had found out that tracked SPGs with heavy guns were too slow to get to where they were most needed. Only the practicalities (bombing of production facilities) kept all production guns installed on Tiger chasses (as that line could be kept running).

PS If the wheels and chassis combo looks familiar, you are right: the Soviets adapted the design for their missiles
Ever-lasting truths: Multi-year budgets/ planning by necessity have to address the painful questions; more often than not the Either-Or prevails over Both-And.
If everyone is thinking the same, then someone is not thinking (attributed to Patton)

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ArmChairCivvy
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Re: DANEMARK

Post by ArmChairCivvy »

Let s put this one here for the simple reason that no one else has ordered the 8 x 8 CAESAR yet:


The narrator (Nexter mngr) uses both automatic and semi-automatic to describe the system. Looks like the charges side of the feed system will soon exhaust what is in the tray and a crew member will be exposed by the necessity to jump out from the armored cabin to do the refill. >> ("autoloader" therefore could be just used as journalists convenience measure as they have become accustomed to such existing on tanks?)
Ever-lasting truths: Multi-year budgets/ planning by necessity have to address the painful questions; more often than not the Either-Or prevails over Both-And.
If everyone is thinking the same, then someone is not thinking (attributed to Patton)

LordJim
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Re: DANEMARK

Post by LordJim »

Well that's the artillery for the "Strike" Brigades sorted, or would be in an alternative universe.

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ArmChairCivvy
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Re: DANEMARK

Post by ArmChairCivvy »

Yep, that is what I have been saying on several occasions.

Saudis got their 6 x 6 CAESARs on Unimog chasses as they were not happy with the base platform x-country mobility.

Here that has been solved, ammo load almost doubled and if you only put away as many rounds as the charges "tray; it is more akin to a tube" allows, then shooting and scooting can all be done under armour.
Ever-lasting truths: Multi-year budgets/ planning by necessity have to address the painful questions; more often than not the Either-Or prevails over Both-And.
If everyone is thinking the same, then someone is not thinking (attributed to Patton)

MikeKiloPapa
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Re: DANEMARK

Post by MikeKiloPapa »

ArmChairCivvy wrote:Here that has been solved, ammo load almost doubled and if you only put away as many rounds as the charges "tray; it is more akin to a tube" allows, then shooting and scooting can all be done under armour.
Not really :


I think Nexter is deliberately being vague on the issue but, as can be seen the loading system is semi-automatic at best....really its more of a loading assist system. IMO its too slow to deploy but at least has a pretty decent ROF.

And just to set things straight, the CAESAR was chosen for 2 reasons alone
1: it isn't Israeli ....important because some of the left wing parties which are part of the current defence agreement are rabidly anti-semitic.(the real reason why the last round of the competition was cancelled when ATMOS won the evaluation)

2: it was the cheapest ....by far. Also explains the choice of TATRA* as the gun carrier. It allowed Nexter to low-ball their offer.

ATMOS won every single category of the evaluation , except cost.

*Just to illustrate how stupid a decision this is, the nearest TATRA dealership is in Berlin ! ...So now we need a huge inventory of spare parts, we need new special tools, we need to train mechanics and support personnel . All to support a "fleet" of 15 bespoke ex-kommi trucks......it makes no sense whatsoever :evil:

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ArmChairCivvy
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Re: DANEMARK

Post by ArmChairCivvy »

MikeKiloPapa wrote:Nexter is deliberately being vague on the issue but, as can be seen the loading system is semi-automatic at best....really its more of a loading assist system. IMO its too slow to deploy but at least has a pretty decent ROF.
- I was trying to be gentle about it, after seeing exactly that clip that you posted
MikeKiloPapa wrote: cheapest ....by far. Also explains the choice of TATRA* as the gun carrier. It allowed Nexter to low-ball their offer.
- I was going to post what our RAM on wheels looks like (pretty much the same as for the platform; now we just need to nick a few from the Navy permanently and put them on Tatras... not that I am saying a single firing unit can stop counter-battery fire; but everything else , pretty much)
- that one slipped out of view before I got to copying the URL, so could not be bothered
... howabout those Israeli Cardamoms that are going to be on more "Kosher" Piranha V platforms, and making good company to the Frenchie-Chezh arty? Piranhas (Swiss Mowags, before someone bought the rights) come from somewhere, the SolTAMs come from somewhere else, there is a little bit of "middle handing" and the whole thing ends up Pukka (more Kosher)?
MikeKiloPapa wrote: support a "fleet" of 15 bespoke
- Ehh, a provision has been made for breakdowns/ prolonged maintenance... is it not just 12 of them in the operational unit?
Ever-lasting truths: Multi-year budgets/ planning by necessity have to address the painful questions; more often than not the Either-Or prevails over Both-And.
If everyone is thinking the same, then someone is not thinking (attributed to Patton)

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ArmChairCivvy
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Re: DANEMARK

Post by ArmChairCivvy »

BTW, looks like the Dutch are going to beat you to the "super" 50 on the on the CVs
- well, there is a lot happening: Piranhas, Ocelots(?), wheeled guns and soft-recoil mortars, trucks
- let them try it out first?
Ever-lasting truths: Multi-year budgets/ planning by necessity have to address the painful questions; more often than not the Either-Or prevails over Both-And.
If everyone is thinking the same, then someone is not thinking (attributed to Patton)

MikeKiloPapa
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Re: DANEMARK

Post by MikeKiloPapa »

ArmChairCivvy wrote: ... howabout those Israeli Cardamoms that are going to be on more "Kosher" Piranha V platforms, and making good company to the Frenchie-Chezh arty? Piranhas (Swiss Mowags, before someone bought the rights) come from somewhere, the SolTAMs come from somewhere else, there is a little bit of "middle handing" and the whole thing ends up Pukka (more Kosher)?
Not quite sure i understand what you are getting at here ?....If it is what i think , then yes ..the CARDOM 10 mortar system is being bought through Soltams Austrian subsidiary ESL, so we can claim its not an Israeli weapon and thereby avoid upsetting aforementioned leftards.

And of course, like the Caesar , Cardom was chosen over its Swiss rival (Ruags Cobra ) because it was cheaper.

Incidentally(or not) , it is the same reason that Scania very surprisingly managed to beat incumbent MAN (RMMV) in the truck deal...i mean its not like we already have more than a 1000 MANs in service ............oh wait....DOH!

Notice a pattern here ?...Apparently capability, strategy and logistics doesn't count for much these days.
- Ehh, a provision has been made for breakdowns/ prolonged maintenance... is it not just 12 of them in the operational unit?
Well strictly speaking its 2x6...as in 2 batteries of 6 artillery pieces each. The last 3 is, as you say, meant for maintenance, training and as reserve. ( i'm fairly certain that we are going to exercise the follow-on option of a further 6 Caesars in the new defence agreement due in the fall , which would give os a third artillery battery)

But my point still stands....from a logistical and operational POV its a disaster.
The Danish army's support structure has been heavily cut over the last decade and is effectively already incapable of properly supporting even the meager combat units we have left. Now they have to accommodate a whole new platform and all its thousands of spare parts numbers, plus having to train its mechanics to work on the Tatra and acquire the tools for it. All this saddles the army with a burden it wouldn't have if ATMOS had been picked or a MAN truck base had been specified for CAESAR.

MikeKiloPapa
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Re: DANEMARK

Post by MikeKiloPapa »

ArmChairCivvy wrote:BTW, looks like the Dutch are going to beat you to the "super" 50 on the on the CVs
Que?.....you have a source for that ?....last i looked the 50mm super shot development was going nowhere fast. Orbital ATK on the other hand has just started production of the 40mm supershot for users equipped with Bushmaster II/Mk44.

As to the Dutch, i know they are in the process of integrating the Spike-LR onto their CV90s and fitting them with Iron Fist APS as well, but i havent heard anything about them upgrading the BM III.

Our own 42 remaining CV9035s is scheduled to go through a MLU in the next couple of years but i doubt it will involve anything as fancy as the dutch program. Frankly i would rather we bought an extra batch of them , which is what we should have gotten instead of the useless Piranha Vs.

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Re: DANEMARK

Post by ArmChairCivvy »

MikeKiloPapa wrote:As to the Dutch, i know they are in the process of integrating the Spike-LR onto their CV90s and fitting them with Iron Fist APS as well, but i havent heard anything about them upgrading the BM III.
Exactly as you say: the first two items have been announced (as a decision) but in the same announcement there was a mention that the gun upgrade has not been decided.... yet, if one reads between the lines
- now, which Gvmnt was it that paid for the rounds that ATK used in their trials (over on that side of the Atlantic)?
Ever-lasting truths: Multi-year budgets/ planning by necessity have to address the painful questions; more often than not the Either-Or prevails over Both-And.
If everyone is thinking the same, then someone is not thinking (attributed to Patton)

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ArmChairCivvy
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Re: DANEMARK

Post by ArmChairCivvy »

MikeKiloPapa wrote: Cardom was chosen over its Swiss rival (Ruags Cobra ) because it was cheaper.
Heh-heh, first of all I apologise for getting the name wrong (I must have been toiling over the hot wok while I was writing).

The Israelis have perfected brand management: buy from us direct (cheaper) or buy from our European front company (it is also a "finer product" so more expensive... but Swiss made!).
- just take a look at RUAG's product catalogue, and where do they all derive from
Ever-lasting truths: Multi-year budgets/ planning by necessity have to address the painful questions; more often than not the Either-Or prevails over Both-And.
If everyone is thinking the same, then someone is not thinking (attributed to Patton)

Frenchie
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Re: DANEMARK

Post by Frenchie »


Dahedd
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Re: DANEMARK

Post by Dahedd »

Same video is posted above. That's one pug ugly truck.

Frenchie
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Re: DANEMARK

Post by Frenchie »

I'm sorry :oops:

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ArmChairCivvy
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Re: DANEMARK

Post by ArmChairCivvy »

It's the Tatra one, I believe (they should have bought it on a Sisu truck, in the spirit of Nordefco).
Ever-lasting truths: Multi-year budgets/ planning by necessity have to address the painful questions; more often than not the Either-Or prevails over Both-And.
If everyone is thinking the same, then someone is not thinking (attributed to Patton)

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Re: DANEMARK

Post by ArmChairCivvy »

At first I thought they just buy from the maker of Piranha (5) so that it is easier to maintain the commonality of internal gubbings, but they seem to be an existing user:
"Danish Defence Acquisition and Logistic Organization (DALO) has selected GDELS-Mowag’s EAGLE 4x4 vehicle platform.

The initial batch consists of 36 vehicles in the Patrol configuration with first deliveries in 2018. The contract has options for further variants including Electronic Warfare, Support and Reconnaissance. The vehicles will complement the Danish Army’s existing EAGLE vehicle fleet."
Ever-lasting truths: Multi-year budgets/ planning by necessity have to address the painful questions; more often than not the Either-Or prevails over Both-And.
If everyone is thinking the same, then someone is not thinking (attributed to Patton)

muttbutt
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Re: DANEMARK

Post by muttbutt »

ArmChairCivvy wrote:
The initial batch consists of 36 vehicles in the Patrol configuration with first deliveries in 2018. The contract has options for further variants including Electronic Warfare, Support and Reconnaissance. The vehicles will complement the Danish Army’s existing EAGLE vehicle fleet."
Seeing a sharp uptick in the amount of EW type systems being procured in Europe....lessons learned from Ukraine I'd imagine.

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Re: DANEMARK

Post by ArmChairCivvy »

muttbutt wrote:lessons learned from Ukraine I'd imagine.
Yep. And don't know how it was before, but if the Americans deploy a bde now, they can choose to attach a bn-level EW unit. Doing just that and nothing else.

Talking about EW: The Raven was fine in Iraq/ A-stan. And as the "rebels" in Ukraine seem to have loadsa drones, it was decided to give some to the other side, too. Except that the Raven is not hardened enough to cope with being anywhere near a National grid (not to mention some real "EW" directed at it).
Ever-lasting truths: Multi-year budgets/ planning by necessity have to address the painful questions; more often than not the Either-Or prevails over Both-And.
If everyone is thinking the same, then someone is not thinking (attributed to Patton)

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Re: DANEMARK

Post by dmereifield »

https://uk.reuters.com/article/uk-russi ... F42LV?il=0

Denmark to increase defence spending by 20% over 5 years. Hammond could learn a thing or two!

Anybody have an idea on what they will spend the extra funding on?

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ArmChairCivvy
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Re: DANEMARK

Post by ArmChairCivvy »

dmereifield wrote:Anybody have an idea on what they will spend the extra funding on?
SM2 and SM6 missiles... you know, the ones that (when the plan was first mooted) caused the Russian ambassador to Denmark to publicly say that "then we will target your frigates with nukes"
... they have a way with diplomacy :crazy:
Ever-lasting truths: Multi-year budgets/ planning by necessity have to address the painful questions; more often than not the Either-Or prevails over Both-And.
If everyone is thinking the same, then someone is not thinking (attributed to Patton)

muttbutt
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Re: DANEMARK

Post by muttbutt »

dmereifield wrote:https://uk.reuters.com/article/uk-russi ... F42LV?il=0

Denmark to increase defence spending by 20% over 5 years. Hammond could learn a thing or two!

Anybody have an idea on what they will spend the extra funding on?
They supposedly want to establish a new 4000 man rapid reaction brigade. So it'll be expensive to kit that out. That's 4000 extra in the army BTW, so new personnel.

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Re: DANEMARK

Post by ArmChairCivvy »

Not so sure the manpower is new, but rather is a sign of reconfiguring the army from out-of-area taskings to defence closer to home
- would be glad to be proved wrong
- $770m new money, every year to 2023; well, the F-35 contract needed to be shaved by one a/c to make all the other things happen

DefenceNews gives this kind of summary (the quote below) of new capabilities included in the cross-party 2018-2023 defence funding pact
- worthwhile to remember that buying artillery was delayed by two of such periods (to the one that has just ended) because the emphasis had been placed on out-of-area capabilities [e.g. Task Force Viking was busy in A-stan, shoring up the ill-conceived Platoon-house strategy] and the frigate building programme... the most potent weapons for them only to be purchased with these - and the following period's - monies:

" The Navy’s frigates are to be equipped with both short-range and long-range missiles to counter hostile aircraft and missiles, while offering improved protection of Danish airspace.

The investment proposal linked to the 2018–2023 capacity-building initiative includes the establishment of a 4,000-strong, medium-heavy “rapid” deployment brigade[ they have actually placed the orders for most of the kit to make this "Strike" bde happen]. Moreover, programs are to be implemented to modernize anti-submarine warfare capabilities along with frigate air defense systems and capacities.

The establishment of a new brigade, which the MoD hopes can be fully operational in 2024, would run parallel to the reorganization of Danish defense forces. The proposed brigade would be given additional enhanced capabilities, including more battle tanks, ground-based air-defense, anti-tank weapons, and artillery systems.

The brigade, which is envisaged as operating as an independent unit with its own command structure, would have the capacity to be deployed by the country’s defense forces to the Baltics in a time of crisis.

In such a scenario, Denmark could become a staging area for reinforcements from NATO allies sent to the area to protect the sovereignty of the NATO-aligned Baltic-rim states Estonia, Latvia and Lithuania."
- so all the three "new" things are directly related to the recognition (belatedly) given to the threat posed by Russia
- I think Sweden was a bit more modest (+10%), but they have a different situation (lots of hardware, but not enough of manpower: an example is that they junked their Leo 2A4s and had BAE build most of the 120 better ones... but can only man one battalion in peace time)
Ever-lasting truths: Multi-year budgets/ planning by necessity have to address the painful questions; more often than not the Either-Or prevails over Both-And.
If everyone is thinking the same, then someone is not thinking (attributed to Patton)

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