Bell Boeing V-22 Osprey - Should the UK buy it?

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Should the UK buy the Osprey? (Leave a comment why below too!)

Yes
47
47%
No
25
25%
Not now
24
24%
Undecided
5
5%
 
Total votes: 101

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SKB
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Bell Boeing V-22 Osprey - Should the UK buy it?

Post by SKB »

Image
^ MV-22 Osprey

Introduction
The Bell Boeing V-22 Osprey is a multi-mission, tiltrotor military aircraft with both vertical takeoff and landing (VTOL), and short takeoff and landing (STOL) capabilities. It is designed to combine the functionality of a conventional helicopter with the long-range, high-speed cruise performance of a turboprop aircraft.

The V-22 originated from the United States Department of Defense Joint-service Vertical take-off/landing Experimental (JVX) aircraft program started in 1981. The team of Bell Helicopter and Boeing Helicopters was awarded a development contract in 1983 for the tiltrotor aircraft. The Bell Boeing team jointly produce the aircraft. The V-22 first flew in 1989, and began flight testing and design alterations; the complexity and difficulties of being the first tiltrotor intended for military service in the world led to many years of development.

The United States Marine Corps began crew training for the Osprey in 2000, and fielded it in 2007; it supplemented and then replaced their Boeing Vertol CH-46 Sea Knights. The Osprey's other operator, the U.S. Air Force, fielded their version of the tiltrotor in 2009. Since entering service with the U.S. Marine Corps and Air Force, the Osprey has been deployed in transportation and medivac operations over Iraq, Afghanistan, Libya and Kuwait.


Armament
The Osprey can be armed with one 7.62×51mm NATO (.308 in caliber) M240 machine gun or .50 in caliber (12.7 mm) M2 machine gun on the loading ramp, that can be fired rearward when the ramp is lowered. A .50 in GAU-19 three-barrel Gatling gun mounted below the V-22's nose was studied for future upgrade. BAE Systems developed a belly-mounted, remotely operated gun turret system for the V-22, named the Interim Defense Weapon System (IDWS). The IDWS is remotely operated by a gunner inside the aircraft, who acquires targets via a separate pod using colour television and forward looking infrared imagery. The IDWS was installed on half of the first V-22s deployed to Afghanistan in 2009, but found limited use due to its 800 lb (360 kg) weight and restrictive rules of engagement.

There were 32 IDWSs available to the US Marine Corps in June 2012. The system had not been fired in combat as V-22s were routinely escorted by helicopter gunships and close air support aircraft, allowing them to focus on their transport role; squadrons also often flew without the belly gun, as the added weight reduced its cargo-carrying capacity. The Osprey's speed means it can outrun supporting conventional helicopters, requiring a self-defense capability on long-range missions and operate independently. The infrared gun camera has proven valuable for reconnaissance and surveillance. Other weapons are being studied to provide an all-quadrant defensive weapon system including nose guns, door guns, and nonlethal countermeasures to work with the current ramp-mounted machine gun and the IDWS.

In 2014, the USMC revealed plans for new V-22 weapons "to increase all-axis, stand-off, and precision capabilities", which may be potentially operated by additional crew members. Armament increases are for enhanced offensive capabilities to special purpose Marine rapid crisis response task forces, rather than as an attack platform. The V-22 could be adapted for various precision weapons, including the AGM-114 Hellfire, AGM-176 Griffin, Joint Air-to-Ground Missile, and GBU-53/B SDB II. Fuselage-based hardpoints would be used to clear the proprotors. In November 2014, Bell and Boeing conducted self-funded weapons tests using a V-22 equipped with a small pylon on the front port-side fuselage and the AN/AAQ-27A EO camera replaced with an L-3 Wescam MX-15 sensor/laser designator. 26 unguided Hydra 70 rockets, two guided APKWS rockets, and two Griffin B missiles were fired over five flights. The USMC and USAF seek a traversable nose-mounted weapon connected to a helmet-mounted sight; recoil would complicate integrating a desired forward-facing gun. A weapons pylon on either side of the fuselage can carry 300 lb (140 kg) of munitions.


Refueling Capability
Boeing is developing a roll-on/roll-off aerial refueling kit, which would give the V-22 the ability to refuel other aircraft. Having an aerial refueling capability that can be based off Wasp-class amphibious assault ships would increase the striking power of Marine F-35Bs, as they would not rely on refueling assets that could only be based on full-sized Nimitz-class aircraft carriers or from land bases. The roll-on/roll-off kit can also be applicable to intelligence, surveillance, and reconnaissance functions. Boeing funded a non-functional demonstration on a VMX-22 aircraft; a prototype kit was successfully tested with an F/A-18 on 5 September 2013.

The high-speed version of the hose/drogue refueling system is designed to be deployed at 185 kn (213 mph; 343 km/h) and function at up to 250 kn (290 mph; 460 km/h). Onboard tanks and a roll-on/roll-off bladder can contain up to 12,000 lb (5,400 kg) of fuel. The operator must open the ramp to extend the refueling hose, then raise the ramp once extended, with the top ramp door left open. The V-22 could refuel rotary-wing aircraft, but it would require a separate drogue used specifically by helicopters and a partially converted nacelle. Bell and Boeing are hoping for funding for additional testing to include contact between the refueler and receiver and eventually the passage of fuel. Since many Marine Corps ground vehicles can run on aviation fuel, a refueling V-22 could also service them. In late 2014, it was stated that such tankers could be operational by 2017.

While the Navy has not declared a firm interest to use the V-22 Aerial Refueling System (VARS) on its planned COD fleet, on 22 February 2016 Boeing confirmed that it expects to sign a development contract with the US Marine Corps (USMC) for the VARS system in the first quarter of 2016. Boeing had conducted an internally financed proof of concept for the roll-on/roll-off capability, with the anticipated USMC contract providing funds to "productionise the kit". VARS would become operational in FY 2018 and would allow the Osprey to become the USMC's recovery tanker; when aircraft land on USMC amphibious ships, they sometimes need additional fuel while they wait for available deck space.


Variants
V-22A - Pre-production full-scale development aircraft used for flight testing. These are unofficially considered A-variants after the 1993 redesign.

CV-22B - U.S. Air Force variant for the U.S. Special Operations Command (USSOCOM). It conducts long-range special operations missions, and is equipped with extra wing fuel tanks, an AN/APQ-186 terrain-following radar, and other equipment such as the AN/ALQ-211, and AN/AAQ-24 Nemesis Directional Infrared Counter Measures. The fuel capacity is increased by 588 gallons (2,230 L) with two inboard wing tanks; three auxiliary tanks (200 or 430 gal) can also be added in the cabin. The CV-22 replaced the MH-53 Pave Low.

MV-22B - U.S. Marine Corps variant. The Marine Corps is the lead service in the V-22's development. The Marine Corps variant is an assault transport for troops, equipment and supplies, capable of operating from ships or expeditionary airfields ashore. It replaced the Marine Corps' CH-46E and CH-53D fleets.

CMV-22B - U.S. Navy variant for the carrier onboard delivery (COD) role. Similar to the MV-22B but includes an extended-range fuel system, a high-frequency radio, and a public address system.

EV-22 - Proposed airborne early warning and control variant. The Royal Navy studied this AEW variant as a replacement for its current fleet of carrier-based Sea King ASaC.7 helicopters.

HV-22 - The U.S. Navy considered an HV-22 to provide combat search and rescue, delivery and retrieval of special warfare teams along with fleet logistic support transport. It chose the MH-60S for this role in 2001. Naval Air Systems Command's 2011/2012 V-22 Osprey Guidebook lists the HV-22 for the U.S. Navy with the USAF and USMC variants.

SV-22 - Proposed anti-submarine warfare variant. The U.S. Navy studied the SV-22 in the 1980s to replace S-3 and SH-2 aircraft.


Operators
US Air Force
US Marine Corps
Japanese Self-Defence Forces (5 on order)


Specifications (MV-22B)
Unit cost: US$72.1 million (flyaway cost for FY2015) (GBP £50.4 million)
Crew: Four (pilot, copilot and two flight engineers/crew chiefs)
Capacity: 24 troops (seated), 32 troops (floor loaded), or 20,000 lb (9,070 kg) of internal cargo, or up to 15,000 lb (6,800 kg) of external cargo (dual hook).
1× Growler light internally transportable ground vehicle
Length: 57 ft 4 in (17.5 m)
Rotor diameter: 38 ft 0 in (11.6 m)
Wingspan: 45 ft 10 in (14 m)
Width with rotors: 84 ft 7 in (25.8 m)
Height: 22 ft 1 in/6.73 m; overall with nacelles vertical (17 ft 11 in/5.5 m; at top of tailfins)
Disc area: 2,268 ft² (212 m²)
Wing area: 301.4 ft² (28 m²)
Empty weight: 33,140 lb (15,032 kg)
Loaded weight: 47,500 lb (21,500 kg)
Max. takeoff weight: 60,500 lb (27,400 kg) (self-deploy/long runway)
Maximum rolling takeoff weight: 57,000 lb (STOL)
Maximum vertical takeoff weight: 52,600 lb
Powerplant: 2 × Rolls-Royce Allison T406/AE 1107C-Liberty turboshafts, 6,150 hp (4,590 kW) eac
Maximum speed: 275 knots (509 km/h, 316 mph) at sea level / 305 kn (565 km/h; 351 mph) at 15,000 ft (4,600 m)
Cruise speed: 241 kn (277 mph, 446 km/h) at sea level
Stall speed: 110 kn (126 mph, 204 km/h) in airplane mode
Range: 879 nmi (1,011 mi, 1,627 km)
Combat radius: 390 nmi (426 mi, 722 km)
Ferry range: 1,940 nmi (2,230 mi, 3,590 km) with auxiliary internal fuel tanks
Service ceiling: 25,000 ft (7,620 m)
Rate of climb: 2,320–4,000 ft/min (11.8 m/s)
Glide ratio: 4.5:1
Disc loading: 20.9 lb/ft² at 47,500 lb GW (102.23 kg/m²)
Power/mass: 0.259 hp/lb (427 W/kg)
Armament:
1× 7.62 mm (0.308 in) M240 machine gun or 0.50 in (12.7 mm) M2 Browning machine gun on ramp, removable.
1× 7.62 mm (.308 in) GAU-17 minigun, belly-mounted, retractable, video remote control in the Remote Guardian System (optional)

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SKB
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Re: Should the UK buy the Osprey?

Post by SKB »


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SKB
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Re: Osprey - Should the UK buy it?

Post by SKB »

It would seem the CMV-22B would be the most suitable variant for the QE class carriers.

https://www.flightglobal.com/news/artic ... na-421620/


But because the QE class and the F-35B are not yet in service, I do not think we need them - yet.

downsizer
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Re: Osprey - Should the UK buy it?

Post by downsizer »

I remain to be convinced that we really need it and that it would provide us value for money. If we had the dough we could better spend it elsewhere.

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Re: Osprey - Should the UK buy it?

Post by arfah »

No.



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Re: Osprey - Should the UK buy it?

Post by Jdam »

It’s a rather complicated question. I think with its greater flexibility it would provide the Navy with a lot more options but currently (going by wiki prices) you can get 3 and a half Merlin's for the price of 1 osprey. That doesn’t include the costs of a new support line.

In a world where we had enough Merlin's (some commentators think we don't) and were looking to expand our capabilities then yes the Osprey I think would be a good purchase.

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Re: Osprey - Should the UK buy it?

Post by bobp »

I think its too complicated and maintenance heavy meaning high running costs. So nope.

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swoop
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Re: Osprey - Should the UK buy it?

Post by swoop »

The QE class of carrier is a multi-role asset. It is neither a long range strike nor helicopter assault, and is designed to be a "Jack of all trades" in the modern tradition of Defence Force performance.

So, having an aircraft (V-22) which can*:
In-flight refuel,
Stand AEW watch,
C.o.D,
Vertrep,
Assault with troops,
Plane guard,
Medevac,
(inset any other helicopter role here).

Then the UK would be mad to not adopt the V-22.**


* (with switch-role or multi-role capable pods)
** (going on previous experience, it will not be adopted).

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shark bait
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Re: Osprey - Should the UK buy it?

Post by shark bait »

swoop wrote:Then the UK would be mad to not adopt the V-22.**
Disagree, all of those roles can be performed by smaller next gen tilt rotor, we would be better waiting for a more advanced and cheaper product like the V280.
swoop wrote:In-flight refuel,
That is the single exception. The V22 is the only aircraft that can lift enough fuel vertically to be a tanker for our carriers. In a 15 years time when we begin to mature our carrier strike capabilities the V22 argument might begin to look attractive as an option for extending the range of our carrier strike.

In the mean time the argument is weak, especially as there is a long list of other bits that need fixing first.
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rec
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Re: Osprey - Should the UK buy it?

Post by rec »

It depends, what else would go in order to pay for Osptrey, after all the MOD isn't flush with money.

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swoop
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Re: Osprey - Should the UK buy it?

Post by swoop »

shark bait wrote:Disagree, all of those roles can be performed by smaller next gen tilt rotor, we would be better waiting for a more advanced and cheaper product like the V280.
Far too small. If you want an "executive transport" however...

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shark bait
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Re: Osprey - Should the UK buy it?

Post by shark bait »

swoop wrote:Far too small. If you want an "executive transport" however...
It isn't.

AEW - 4 tonne payload, same as Merlin so perfect size for the AEW role.
Vertrep - same as Merlin.
Assault - 14 passengers, less than Merlin.
Medevac - same as Merlin.

The V-280 payload is comparable to Merlin, but at much greater range.
On the other hand the V-22 is more comparable to Chinook.
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swoop
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Re: Osprey - Should the UK buy it?

Post by swoop »

shark bait wrote:It isn't.
From what is "out there" info-wise, it looks better to keep using Merlins' instead of the 280.

Once final performance figures emerge from testing, it might show improvements in certain areas, but I'm sceptical.
It certainly isn't in the same arena of Chinook or -22. More like an executive transport for those wearing either fatigues or Saville Row.
Time will tell.

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Re: Osprey - Should the UK buy it?

Post by Little J »

Don't forget, the 280 hasn't won the competition yet - it may even be beaten by Sikorsky. It may be the better design anyway.

I'm guessing the smaller footprint of the SB1 (compared to the 280) would have big advantages on the carrier's or cross-decking.

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swoop
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Re: Osprey - Should the UK buy it?

Post by swoop »

Little J wrote:Don't forget, the 280 hasn't won the competition yet - it may even be beaten by Sikorsky. It may be the better design anyway.

I'm guessing the smaller footprint of the SB1 (compared to the 280) would have big advantages on the carrier's or cross-decking.
Hopefully they will have developed a folding-wing / folding-rotors system by then.

The V-22 does cross-decking quite well at the moment though, especially at higher load weights.

rec
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Re: Osprey - Should the UK buy it?

Post by rec »

I would rather see the 8 orphaned HM1s upgraded to HM2 standard and a further new build of merlin HM2s. Then once there are sufficient f3bs in service then think about opsresys for COD and air to air refuelling.

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shark bait
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Re: Osprey - Should the UK buy it?

Post by shark bait »

True, much more urgent things to be fixed first. It remains a nice option for maturing carrier capabilities down the line.
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Re: Osprey - Should the UK buy it?

Post by marktigger »

osprey maybe as a chinook replacement so in about 20 years

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Re: Osprey - Should the UK buy it?

Post by S M H »

A clever use of exchange aircrews with the type and embarking the odd marine one on the carriers to gain experience wold be prudent. The carriers are designed to operate them.Then if in the unlikely happens and there is a U.K. ops only. we could acquire (U.O.R.)? borrow a few without problems. Then in look at there procurement as carrier ops mature. Better value for our expenditure would be the orphaned merlin's if they haven't been reduced to spares.

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shark bait
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Re: Osprey - Should the UK buy it?

Post by shark bait »

Hopefully if the carriers will deploy with a US marine squadron from time to time, and hopefully they would also bring some V-22's. Like you say, that would allow the RN to practice with the V-22 and allow them to make a more informed decision later down the line.
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FuNsTeR
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Re: Osprey - Should the UK buy it?

Post by FuNsTeR »

and what hardware should we cut from our ever tightening defence budget and at $72 million a pop according to wiki it's not cheap

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Re: Osprey - Should the UK buy it?

Post by Spinflight »

Just borrow the Marine Corp's when they come aboard.

They'll be keen to showcase it to us, we can probably string them along for years. :)

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Re: Osprey - Should the UK buy it?

Post by marktigger »

if the americans go to a sensor equipped version to fit into the Viking's place possibly an AEW version to replace the Hawkeye I suspect for the navy it might be worth a look

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Re: Osprey - Should the UK buy it?

Post by Pseudo »

marktigger wrote:if the americans go to a sensor equipped version to fit into the Viking's place possibly an AEW version to replace the Hawkeye I suspect for the navy it might be worth a look
The SV-22 might be an interesting idea, but I'd think that the service ceiling would reduce USN interest in an AEW variant.

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shark bait
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Re: Osprey - Should the UK buy it?

Post by shark bait »

It's certainly attractive, but probably best waiting for a next gen tilt rotor, such as the V280. That a closer match to the Merlin.
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