Caribbean

[SW1]

Security situation in the Caribbean deteriorating

Shame that HMS Dauntless is no longer in the area.

I belive that HMS Medway is returning to Carribean from her deployment in Falklands, (covering for HMS Forth's refit).

A River B2 OPV is great providing forward presence in low risk areas, assisting with patrollig and policing BIOT's Maritime EEZ, and conducting anti-drug smuggling actions. But if actual conflict is erupting in the area, would need a warship. Ad with today's anouncements of ships to both the Baltic Sea and the Persian Gulf, the RN escorts are painfully stretched.

Guyana is not a BIOT but is part of the Commonwealth.

I think it’s often forgotten that Venezuela has the largest oil reserves in the world and terrible governance and with Iranian influence. Trinidad and Tobago also a large oil and gas fields. When you consider the cptpp membership of Mexico and the Panama Canal with transit to Peru another cptpp member as well as all our historical links I would say the region is increasing in importance to the uk.

Is suspect this tension has been rising for sometime and perhaps why the ministers decided an escort was required and dauntless spent some time down this part of the Caribbean exercising. I think it is worth nothing that the escort can conduct and prosecute the anti drug role an opv merely takes part in the operation they are not equal. The task is as big as it is in the gulf https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Joint_Int ... orce_South


It highlights why having fwd deployed assets capable of escort or to term a loser definition stabilisation is valuable. As you have highlighted of all the RN surface fleet it is the requirement for multiple escorts in multiple locations for sloc that is priority.

[Caribbean]

Possibly more effective to put on a public display of support by moving ground troops to Guyana by air (not neccessarily British - there are other regional Commonwealth countries, like Jamaica, who could contribute). There are British forces in Belize & US Marines in a number of Central American states, if the US could be persuaded to contribute.
If the area is genuinely becoming important to Europe, then there are also French and Dutch forces in the region.

[SW1]

Venezuela’s naval parade in mid July showcasing its new Iranian delivered missile boats may have more meaning in this context.


https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-latin-america-67610200


Venezuelans have voted overwhelmingly in favour of claiming a disputed oil-rich territory long controlled by neighbouring Guyana.
More than 95% approved establishing a new state in Essequibo, officials say.

Caracas says the region has been part of Venezuela since independence from Spain 200 years ago, but Guyana says it was awarded to what was then British Guiana in the late 19th Century.

The dispute flared up again in 2015 after a major offshore oil discovery.

[SW1]

The lesson from Ukraine of course is you establish a presence to show you’re interested in the outcome before conflict breaks out to ensure it doesn’t, provided your being asked to help of course.

[SW1]

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-latin- ... me=twitter

Brazil says that it is deploying troops along its border with Venezuela after the Venezuelan government announced plans to incorporate an area controlled by Guyana into its territory.
The oil-rich Essequibo region has been in dispute since the 19th Century when Guyana was a British colony.

Venezuela renewed its land claims after offshore oil and gas reserves were discovered a few years ago.
Tensions have been rising since a referendum on Sunday in Venezuela.

More than 95% of voters are said to have supported the government's claim to Essequibo.
Venezuela's leader Nicolás Maduro has since asked the state oil company to issue extraction licenses there and proposed that the National Assembly pass a bill to make the area part of Venezuela.

The measures are cause for concern across the region. While Guyana has its troops on high alert, the Brazilian army has said that it is moving more soldiers to the border city of Boa Vista, the capital of Roraima state, as well as bringing in more armed vehicles.

[Phil Sayers]

As much as Maduro obviously is an idiot hell-bent of diverting domestic attention away from his disastrous economic policies and dictatorial rule, I do not think he is so much an idiot that he does not appreciate that proceeding with an invasion of Guyana carries a not-insignificant risk of his own ouster.

[SW1]

As much as Maduro obviously is an idiot hell-bent of diverting domestic attention away from his disastrous economic policies and dictatorial rule, I do not think he is so much an idiot that he does not appreciate that proceeding with an invasion of Guyana carries a not-insignificant risk of his own ouster.

I don’t know he may take after putin.

A few freedom of navigation exercises and a port stop in Guyana waters called for too I think.

[new guy]

same story as always, be it Argentina, Russia, turkey, start a war as a distraction / quick political win.

[SW1]

Guyana has asked the US, Brazil, the UK and France for assistance

[Tempest414]

Do we still have a Type 45 in the region if so it should be on its way

But again this highlights what I have saying that we a Patrol group of 2 x T-31 and 3 x OPV's in the South Atlantic

[SW1]

Do we still have a Type 45 in the region if so it should be on its way

But again this highlights what I have saying that we a Patrol group of 2 x T-31 and 3 x OPV's in the South Atlantic

Pulled into Portsmouth this morning according to social media

This is historically the patrol task north area not south

[Tempest414]

Do we still have a Type 45 in the region if so it should be on its way

But again this highlights what I have saying that we a Patrol group of 2 x T-31 and 3 x OPV's in the South Atlantic

Pulled into Portsmouth this morning according to social media

This is historically the patrol task north area not south

I would say it would be on the Line between the two but still highlights the need for Frigate based patrol groups

[sol]

Do we still have a Type 45 in the region if so it should be on its way

HMS Trent is currently on the patrol in Caribbean, she replaced HMS Dauntless.

[Repulse]

Do we still have a Type 45 in the region if so it should be on its way

But again this highlights what I have saying that we a Patrol group of 2 x T-31 and 3 x OPV's in the South Atlantic

Pulled into Portsmouth this morning according to social media

This is historically the patrol task north area not south

I would say it would be on the Line between the two but still highlights the need for Frigate based patrol groups

To do what in this instance? And why the UK? Even if we were involved in some form, then you are preparing to be shot at, so why not surge more capable units from the UK?

[Tempest414]

Do we still have a Type 45 in the region if so it should be on its way

But again this highlights what I have saying that we a Patrol group of 2 x T-31 and 3 x OPV's in the South Atlantic

Pulled into Portsmouth this morning according to social media

This is historically the patrol task north area not south

I would say it would be on the Line between the two but still highlights the need for Frigate based patrol groups

To do what in this instance? And why the UK? Even if we were involved in some form, then you are preparing to be shot at, so why not surge more capable units from the UK?

In the first place to be a deterrent in the region and in this action be part of any multi national naval force

For me having duty escorts around the world helps the RN case for having them if any colour of HMG sees escorts hanging around in UK ports waiting to surge anywhere they will be seen as not needed and cut

[SW1]

As a former British colony they have asked for our assistance along with the US, Brazil and France.

We are I hope still a country that wishes that international norms and the rule of law are upheld. The strong should not be allowed to annex the weak we have seen what happens when the response is simply to shrug and walk away.

If you hold the line now you don’t have to fight the bigger problem later.

Deterrence by presence lasts longer than a surge and a frigate expects to be shot at its what their built for.

[Repulse]

In the first place to be a deterrent in the region and in this action be part of any multi national naval force

For me having duty escorts around the world helps the RN case for having them if any colour of HMG sees escorts hanging around in UK ports waiting to surge anywhere they will be seen as not needed and cut

Will we intervene in a conflict with Venezuela and Guyana? If so, how far? Will a T31 really make a difference, if we want to make a difference surely do it properly with a combined force package and use a CVF task group for some overflights (1970 Belize style). Having a ship floating offshore but not capable of anything significant is pointless - you are either in or out, and you need to demonstrate you can make a difference. Doesn’t have to be permanent deployment, it has to be able to be deployed quickly and be credible.

I also disagree that by forward basing numerous Escorts somehow makes them protected from cuts - quite the opposite, it’s seen solely through its value to and of a particular region which is prone to politics. It’s also not optimal to have maximum effect. The only arguable region is the Gulf, but as our reliance on imported Gas / Oil reduces that will also become increasingly questioned.

IMO, it’s much better to offer the ability to surge and sustain world class top tier capabilities globally, because not only does it offer real value to our allies, but it’s also gives biggest political bang per buck and is something that is more manageable from a personnel standpoint also.

[Tempest414]

As a former British colony they have asked for our assistance along with the US, Brazil and France.

We are I hope still a country that wishes that international norms and the rule of law are upheld. The strong should not be allowed to annex the weak we have seen what happens when the response is simply to shrug and walk away.

If you hold the line now you don’t have to fight the bigger problem later.

Deterrence by presence lasts longer than a surge and a frigate expects to be shot at its what their built for.

Sorry to say we the UK have now fallen well short as a country that stands for international law as we are currently actively compicant in the fastest growing genocide in decades and you are right we are seeing what happens when we shrug and look the other way women and children get murdered

And it this very action that has lead to the likes of Venezuela thinking it can have ago and hoping others will look away

As for your last point I fully agree

[SW1]

As a former British colony they have asked for our assistance along with the US, Brazil and France.

We are I hope still a country that wishes that international norms and the rule of law are upheld. The strong should not be allowed to annex the weak we have seen what happens when the response is simply to shrug and walk away.

If you hold the line now you don’t have to fight the bigger problem later.

Deterrence by presence lasts longer than a surge and a frigate expects to be shot at its what their built for.

Sorry to say we the UK have now fallen well short as a country that stands for international law as we are currently actively compicant in the fastest growing genocide in decades and you are right we are seeing what happens when we shrug and look the other way women and children get murdered

And it this very action that has lead to the likes of Venezuela thinking it can have ago and hoping others will look away

As for your last point I fully agree

My point of example was turning the other way through most of the 00s to Russian intimidation and annexation of bits of Georgia and Ukraine. Standing up to it earlier would have saved the destruction of Ukraine hundreds of thousands of lives.

I know you are referring to Isreal and we are doing exactly what we should be there standing up to Iranian backed barbaric terrorism and in full accordance with the right to self defence.

[Tempest414]

In the first place to be a deterrent in the region and in this action be part of any multi national naval force

For me having duty escorts around the world helps the RN case for having them if any colour of HMG sees escorts hanging around in UK ports waiting to surge anywhere they will be seen as not needed and cut

Will we intervene in a conflict with Venezuela and Guyana? If so, how far? Will a T31 really make a difference, if we want to make a difference surely do it properly with a combined force package and use a CVF task group for some overflights (1970 Belize style). Having a ship floating offshore but not capable of anything significant is pointless - you are either in or out, and you need to demonstrate you can make a difference. Doesn’t have to be permanent deployment, it has to be able to be deployed quickly and be credible.

I also disagree that by forward basing numerous Escorts somehow makes them protected from cuts - quite the opposite, it’s seen solely through its value to and of a particular region which is prone to politics. It’s also not optimal to have maximum effect. The only arguable region is the Gulf, but as our reliance on imported Gas / Oil reduces that will also become increasingly questioned.

IMO, it’s much better to offer the ability to surge and sustain world class top tier capabilities globally, because not only does it offer real value to our allies, but it’s also gives biggest political bang per buck and is something that is more manageable from a personnel standpoint also.

As I said above any duty frigate in the region would join a multinational force sent we could still send other assets as seen fit

the other side of having forward based escorts in any region is they can train alongside allies in said region that make them more effective fighting alongside said allies when the time comes

[Scimitar54]

SW1 wrote:-

My point of example was turning the other way through most of the 00s to Russian intimidation and annexation of bits of Georgia and Ukraine. Standing up to it earlier would have saved the destruction of Ukraine hundreds of thousands of lives.

I know you are referring to Isreal and we are doing exactly what we should be there standing up to Iranian backed barbaric terrorism.

I wholeheartedly agree.

[Repulse]

the other side of having forward based escorts in any region is they can train alongside allies in said region that make them more effective fighting alongside said allies when the time comes

You can do that more effectively with forward based minor warships and training deployments from the UK, you do not need to forward base frigates to do this.

[Tempest414]

As a former British colony they have asked for our assistance along with the US, Brazil and France.

We are I hope still a country that wishes that international norms and the rule of law are upheld. The strong should not be allowed to annex the weak we have seen what happens when the response is simply to shrug and walk away.

If you hold the line now you don’t have to fight the bigger problem later.

Deterrence by presence lasts longer than a surge and a frigate expects to be shot at its what their built for.

Sorry to say we the UK have now fallen well short as a country that stands for international law as we are currently actively compicant in the fastest growing genocide in decades and you are right we are seeing what happens when we shrug and look the other way women and children get murdered

And it this very action that has lead to the likes of Venezuela thinking it can have ago and hoping others will look away

As for your last point I fully agree

My point of example was turning the other way through most of the 00s to Russian intimidation and annexation of bits of Georgia and Ukraine. Standing up to it earlier would have saved the destruction of Ukraine hundreds of thousands of lives.

I know you are referring to Isreal and we are doing exactly what we should be there standing up to Iranian backed barbaric terrorism and in full accordance with the right to self defence.

You are right we should stand up to Iranian back terrorism but to say we should look the other way when anyone is committing genocide just sickens me to the fucking core and as an ex RAF officer I find it abhorrent that anyone thinks the killing of throunds of women and children and the starving of the sick and elderly in anyway is expectable

Also I love the way you use the word Barbaric because the way Israel is going about it campaign is utterly Barbaric and it now clear to anyone with a IQ over 10 that Israel sees this as an opportunity to drive 2 million people from they homes into Egypt

[Tempest414]

SW1 wrote:-

My point of example was turning the other way through most of the 00s to Russian intimidation and annexation of bits of Georgia and Ukraine. Standing up to it earlier would have saved the destruction of Ukraine hundreds of thousands of lives.

I know you are referring to Isreal and we are doing exactly what we should be there standing up to Iranian backed barbaric terrorism.

I wholeheartedly agree.

You wholeheartedly agree to the murder of throunds of women and children and the starving of the sick and elderly I find this quit sick to be fair

[Scimitar54]

Tempest414
I did not put words into your mouth, so do have the common courtesy NOT to put either your? words, or the words of others into mine. Now, can we please return to the topic.