Caribbean

[Tempest414]

Tempest414
I did not put words into your mouth, so do have the common courtesy NOT to put either your? words, or the words of others into mine. Now, can we please return to the topic.

May I ask what you wholeheartedly agree to then if that is OK you can PM me if you wish

[Tempest414]

The other option here is to send the high readiness global reaction battle group by air to conduct a planned training engagement as to say

[wargame_insomniac]

In the first place to be a deterrent in the region and in this action be part of any multi national naval force

For me having duty escorts around the world helps the RN case for having them if any colour of HMG sees escorts hanging around in UK ports waiting to surge anywhere they will be seen as not needed and cut

Will we intervene in a conflict with Venezuela and Guyana? If so, how far? Will a T31 really make a difference, if we want to make a difference surely do it properly with a combined force package and use a CVF task group for some overflights (1970 Belize style). Having a ship floating offshore but not capable of anything significant is pointless - you are either in or out, and you need to demonstrate you can make a difference. Doesn’t have to be permanent deployment, it has to be able to be deployed quickly and be credible.

I also disagree that by forward basing numerous Escorts somehow makes them protected from cuts - quite the opposite, it’s seen solely through its value to and of a particular region which is prone to politics. It’s also not optimal to have maximum effect. The only arguable region is the Gulf, but as our reliance on imported Gas / Oil reduces that will also become increasingly questioned.

IMO, it’s much better to offer the ability to surge and sustain world class top tier capabilities globally, because not only does it offer real value to our allies, but it’s also gives biggest political bang per buck and is something that is more manageable from a personnel standpoint also.

Having a warship in the region can firstly be a deterrent against Venezualan own Navy. And secondly a mixture of old fashioned NGFS and new-fangled NSM can also make a point.....

What the old saying: I get more out of using a kind word backed up by a two by four than I do from a kind word alone.

[SW1]

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-latin-america-67836342

Venezuela has ordered the armed forces to hold military exercises in response to the UK's decision to send a warship to support neighbouring Guyana.

Military leaders said 5,600 soldiers would take part in "defensive" exercises on Venezuela's eastern Caribbean and Atlantic coasts.
Earlier this month, Venezuelan voters backed the creation of a new state in oil-rich Essequibo.
Guyana has administered the area for decades.
In a television address on Thursday, President Nicolás Maduro said the exercises were being launched "in response to the provocation and threat of the United Kingdom against peace and the sovereignty of our country".

[new guy]

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-latin-america-67836342

Venezuela has ordered the armed forces to hold military exercises in response to the UK's decision to send a warship to support neighbouring Guyana.

Military leaders said 5,600 soldiers would take part in "defensive" exercises on Venezuela's eastern Caribbean and Atlantic coasts.
Earlier this month, Venezuelan voters backed the creation of a new state in oil-rich Essequibo.
Guyana has administered the area for decades.
In a television address on Thursday, President Nicolás Maduro said the exercises were being launched "in response to the provocation and threat of the United Kingdom against peace and the sovereignty of our country".

Clearly sending a frigate wouldn't have been a diplomatic problem, as they reacted at an OPV.

[Repulse]

Clearly sending a frigate wouldn't have been a diplomatic problem, as they reacted at an OPV.

There’s levels and clearly any external “interference” will get a response. It’s whether it escalates or keeps the same level and the degree of foreign support. Time will tell, but if you think a frigate would have made things safer / calmer then I think you are wrong.

The key bit will be getting the next level of response ready if we are actually serious in supporting Guyana and see it through. If we are prepared or capable to do that we shouldn’t be there.

[SW1]

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-latin-america-67836342

Venezuela has ordered the armed forces to hold military exercises in response to the UK's decision to send a warship to support neighbouring Guyana.

Military leaders said 5,600 soldiers would take part in "defensive" exercises on Venezuela's eastern Caribbean and Atlantic coasts.
Earlier this month, Venezuelan voters backed the creation of a new state in oil-rich Essequibo.
Guyana has administered the area for decades.
In a television address on Thursday, President Nicolás Maduro said the exercises were being launched "in response to the provocation and threat of the United Kingdom against peace and the sovereignty of our country".

Clearly sending a frigate wouldn't have been a diplomatic problem, as they reacted at an OPV.

There was never a diplomatic problem only a lack of asset problem. If you are sending something into a potentially tense situation it would be better to send something that can defend itself if required which is why you would have sent a frigate as it’s the lowest level asset that can do that.

[Repulse]

There was never a diplomatic problem only a lack of asset problem. If you are sending something into a potentially tense situation it would be better to send something that can defend itself if required which is why you would have sent a frigate as it’s the lowest level asset that can do that.

You will not be surprised, but completely disagree - what frigate is configured just for purely defensive operations?

If the objective is to show solidarity at a low level then an OPV is perfect. If you seriously think there is a chance the ship will be shot at, then we should be thinking about what our role is in a war and whether we are committed or not. Regardless, you need resources to surge to fight.

[abc123]

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-latin-america-67836342

Venezuela has ordered the armed forces to hold military exercises in response to the UK's decision to send a warship to support neighbouring Guyana.

Military leaders said 5,600 soldiers would take part in "defensive" exercises on Venezuela's eastern Caribbean and Atlantic coasts.
Earlier this month, Venezuelan voters backed the creation of a new state in oil-rich Essequibo.
Guyana has administered the area for decades.
In a television address on Thursday, President Nicolás Maduro said the exercises were being launched "in response to the provocation and threat of the United Kingdom against peace and the sovereignty of our country".

Clearly sending a frigate wouldn't have been a diplomatic problem, as they reacted at an OPV.

If the UK is afraid of the Venezuelan reaction, they shouldn't send anything.

[SW1]

There was never a diplomatic problem only a lack of asset problem. If you are sending something into a potentially tense situation it would be better to send something that can defend itself if required which is why you would have sent a frigate as it’s the lowest level asset that can do that.

You will not be surprised, but completely disagree - what frigate is configured just for purely defensive operations?

If the objective is to show solidarity at a low level then an OPV is perfect. If you seriously think there is a chance the ship will be shot at, then we should be thinking about what our role is in a war and whether we are committed or not. Regardless, you need resources to surge to fight.

Take your pick any of them in UK service right now can defend themselves. It’s why we have HMS Lancaster in the gulf of Aden and not an offshore patrol vessel.

[Repulse]

Take your pick any of them in UK service right now can defend themselves. It’s why we have HMS Lancaster in the gulf of Aden and not an offshore patrol vessel.

There is an active conflict with a much higher threat profile in the Gulf - different circumstances different tools.

[Repulse]

If the UK is afraid of the Venezuelan reaction, they shouldn't send anything.

Completely agree, but there is a difference between responding to a reaction versus forcing one.

[SW1]

Take your pick any of them in UK service right now can defend themselves. It’s why we have HMS Lancaster in the gulf of Aden and not an offshore patrol vessel.

There is an active conflict with a much higher threat profile in the Gulf - different circumstances different tools.

It’s been there for years not just when there has been active conflict! It’s not different if someone is threatening belligerence.

[Repulse]

Take your pick any of them in UK service right now can defend themselves. It’s why we have HMS Lancaster in the gulf of Aden and not an offshore patrol vessel.

There is an active conflict with a much higher threat profile in the Gulf - different circumstances different tools.

It’s been there for years not just when there has been active conflict! It’s not different if someone is threatening belligerence.

Sorry, but there is a big difference between threatening and actually doing it. Grand standing and creating threats for local political advantage is not new - committing war fighting units does nothing but add to the validity of the claim. IMO show commitment in an understated way but be ready to scale and react quickly if threat becomes action or there is indisputable intelligence it is about to. If the UK has committed an OPV when there is credible evidence of an attack being planned I completely agree that it’s wrong, and committing a tier one warship or task group is the right answer - but my money is on there isn’t such intelligence.

[tomuk]

Take your pick any of them in UK service right now can defend themselves. It’s why we have HMS Lancaster in the gulf of Aden and not an offshore patrol vessel.

There is an active conflict with a much higher threat profile in the Gulf - different circumstances different tools.

It’s been there for years not just when there has been active conflict! It’s not different if someone is threatening belligerence.

Sorry, but there is a big difference between threatening and actually doing it. Grand standing and creating threats for local political advantage is not new - committing war fighting units does nothing but add to the validity of the claim. IMO show commitment in an understated way but be ready to scale and react quickly if threat becomes action or there is indisputable intelligence it is about to. If the UK has committed an OPV when there is credible evidence of an attack being planned I completely agree that it’s wrong, and committing a tier one warship or task group is the right answer - but my money is on there isn’t such intelligence.

But there is an ocean of water gap between an OPV and a task group.

[Repulse]

But there is an ocean of water gap between an OPV and a task group.

There is, and deployment of Army / RAF units are more likely. However, if we are getting involved we are either fully in or not - for the RN deploying first tier warships from the UK is a good next step, but we need to be prepared to go to the task group if needed.

[Tempest414]

There was never a diplomatic problem only a lack of asset problem. If you are sending something into a potentially tense situation it would be better to send something that can defend itself if required which is why you would have sent a frigate as it’s the lowest level asset that can do that.

You will not be surprised, but completely disagree - what frigate is configured just for purely defensive operations?

If the objective is to show solidarity at a low level then an OPV is perfect. If you seriously think there is a chance the ship will be shot at, then we should be thinking about what our role is in a war and whether we are committed or not. Regardless, you need resources to surge to fight.

what frigate apart from HMS Somerset has a credible offensive capability

[Repulse]

what frigate apart from HMS Somerset has a credible offensive capability

Whilst Harpoon is dated, it can do some serious (and possibly inaccurate in cluttered environments) damage, nor is its 114mm NGFS gun there just for fun. Add to that a fully armed Wildcat and yes all the T23s have a credible offensive capability.

[Tempest414]

what frigate apart from HMS Somerset has a credible offensive capability

Whilst Harpoon is dated, it can do some serious (and possibly inaccurate in cluttered environments) damage, nor is its 114mm NGFS gun there just for fun. Add to that a fully armed Wildcat and yes all the T23s have a credible offensive capability.

So I can load say 20 Hero 120 loiter weapons on a RB2's and say it has a credible offensive capability

[Repulse]

what frigate apart from HMS Somerset has a credible offensive capability

Whilst Harpoon is dated, it can do some serious (and possibly inaccurate in cluttered environments) damage, nor is its 114mm NGFS gun there just for fun. Add to that a fully armed Wildcat and yes all the T23s have a credible offensive capability.

So I can load say 20 Hero 120 loiter weapons on a RB2's and say it has a credible offensive capability

No

[Tempest414]

what frigate apart from HMS Somerset has a credible offensive capability

Whilst Harpoon is dated, it can do some serious (and possibly inaccurate in cluttered environments) damage, nor is its 114mm NGFS gun there just for fun. Add to that a fully armed Wildcat and yes all the T23s have a credible offensive capability.

So I can load say 20 Hero 120 loiter weapons on a RB2's and say it has a credible offensive capability

No

Why not Hero 120 has a range of 60+ Km's and is a precision strike weapon I would class that as a credible offensive weapon. also it can be moved to a ORC with RM and taken 60 Km's from the ship

I would also not class the 114mm as a credible offensive weapon anymore as modern land based artillery out ranges it

The 127mm on T-26 will change this as with Vulcano rounds it make 90+ km's

[wargame_insomniac]

I would also not class the 114mm as a credible offensive weapon anymore as modern land based artillery out ranges it

The 127mm on T-26 will change this as with Vulcano rounds it make 90+ km's

The key word in that phrase is "modern". What aspects of the Venzualan armed forces can realistically be descibed as "modern"?

As I said before, I do hope that RN has got another escort (preferably T45) being quietly readied in UK for immediate action - could then be despatched to one of BIOT's in Carribean, so that available for back up in Guyana at short notice.

Ideally along with sending (before hostilities break out for "training purposes") either a Battalion of Gurkhas from Brunei and/or Royal Marines that have recently been training in Belize (i.e. our two main UK jungle training bases). Plus any supporting units such as Engineers, Signals, etc that would be appropriate.

Not sure what airbases are nearby that we have access to if we need airsupport, although I doubt we are in any sort of position to make a prolonged deployment at such distance from other UK resources. To me it's more of getting Gurkhas and/or RM's out there beforehand as a deterrent to furthr escalation.

I think that for any actual fighting, we would be dependant on US forces, other than say a UK defence just of Georgetown.

[SW1]

I would also not class the 114mm as a credible offensive weapon anymore as modern land based artillery out ranges it

The 127mm on T-26 will change this as with Vulcano rounds it make 90+ km's

The key word in that phrase is "modern". What aspects of the Venzualan armed forces can realistically be descibed as "modern"?

As I said before, I do hope that RN has got another escort (preferably T45) being quietly readied in UK for immediate action - could then be despatched to one of BIOT's in Carribean, so that available for back up in Guyana at short notice.

Ideally along with sending (before hostilities break out for "training purposes") either a Battalion of Gurkhas from Brunei and/or Royal Marines that have recently been training in Belize (i.e. our two main UK jungle training bases). Plus any supporting units such as Engineers, Signals, etc that would be appropriate.

Not sure what airbases are nearby that we have access to if we need airsupport, although I doubt we are in any sort of position to make a prolonged deployment at such distance from other UK resources. To me it's more of getting Gurkhas and/or RM's out there beforehand as a deterrent to furthr escalation.

I think that for any actual fighting, we would be dependant on US forces, other than say a UK defence just of Georgetown.

https://www.12af.acc.af.mil/About-Us/Fa ... locations/

[abc123]

I would also not class the 114mm as a credible offensive weapon anymore as modern land based artillery out ranges it

The 127mm on T-26 will change this as with Vulcano rounds it make 90+ km's

The key word in that phrase is "modern". What aspects of the Venzualan armed forces can realistically be descibed as "modern"?

As I said before, I do hope that RN has got another escort (preferably T45) being quietly readied in UK for immediate action - could then be despatched to one of BIOT's in Carribean, so that available for back up in Guyana at short notice.

Ideally along with sending (before hostilities break out for "training purposes") either a Battalion of Gurkhas from Brunei and/or Royal Marines that have recently been training in Belize (i.e. our two main UK jungle training bases). Plus any supporting units such as Engineers, Signals, etc that would be appropriate.

Not sure what airbases are nearby that we have access to if we need airsupport, although I doubt we are in any sort of position to make a prolonged deployment at such distance from other UK resources. To me it's more of getting Gurkhas and/or RM's out there beforehand as a deterrent to furthr escalation.

I think that for any actual fighting, we would be dependant on US forces, other than say a UK defence just of Georgetown.

https://www.12af.acc.af.mil/About-Us/Fa ... locations/

Curacao and Aruba are within range of Venezuelan artillery.

[Icedragon9]

In the first place to be a deterrent in the region and in this action be part of any multi national naval force

For me having duty escorts around the world helps the RN case for having them if any colour of HMG sees escorts hanging around in UK ports waiting to surge anywhere they will be seen as not needed and cut

Will we intervene in a conflict with Venezuela and Guyana? If so, how far? Will a T31 really make a difference, if we want to make a difference surely do it properly with a combined force package and use a CVF task group for some overflights (1970 Belize style). Having a ship floating offshore but not capable of anything significant is pointless - you are either in or out, and you need to demonstrate you can make a difference. Doesn’t have to be permanent deployment, it has to be able to be deployed quickly and be credible.

I also disagree that by forward basing numerous Escorts somehow makes them protected from cuts - quite the opposite, it’s seen solely through its value to and of a particular region which is prone to politics. It’s also not optimal to have maximum effect. The only arguable region is the Gulf, but as our reliance on imported Gas / Oil reduces that will also become increasingly questioned.

IMO, it’s much better to offer the ability to surge and sustain world class top tier capabilities globally, because not only does it offer real value to our allies, but it’s also gives biggest political bang per buck and is something that is more manageable from a personnel standpoint also.

Given the state of Venezuela's navy and Guyana's lack of a navy a T31 could actually make a substantial difference. It might at least ward off a potential naval invasion and force Venezuela to invade through the jungle.