AW159 Wildcat Helicopter (RN & AAC)

[rec]

Isn't it sensible to actually equip RN wildcats with dipping sonar and sonar bouys, so that is has some AS capability?

No because that's Merlins job and if you fit Wildcat with sonar you then should fit Merlin with ASM's if you fit Merlin with ASM's you don't need wildcat.

But the problem is two fold, firstly merlin is too expensive, secondly to have a single role helicopetr seesm a luxury we can't afford.

[marktigger]

But the problem is two fold, firstly merlin is too expensive, secondly to have a single role helicopetr seesm a luxury we can't afford.

In much the same way as having Highly expensive single role ships is also a luxury we can't afford either!

[GibMariner]

Wild times at 815 NAS as first of 12 new helicopters are delivered

The first four of 12 new Wildcats has been delivered to 815 Naval Air Squadron as the Fleet Air Arm’s largest squadron begins the switch from Lynx after 35 years.
Over the next 11 months the Yeovilton squadron will gradually retire the Lynx Mk8 as its successor takes over as the wings of front-line destroyers and frigates.
In a year’s time, it will fall to the Yeovilton squadron to provide the fleet with Wildcat flights to support operations around the globe – just as it has done with numerous variants of the trusty Lynx since 1981.
With the ultimate Lynx, the Mk8, gradually being phased out of service – the last flight joins HMS Portland for a nine-month deployment shortly – Wildcat will rapidly take its place.
There’s already one Wildcat squadron at the Somerset air base, 825, which has been learning how to operate the new helicopter for the past two years

https://navynews.co.uk/archive/news/item/14725

[ArmChairCivvy]

As Merlin does not have any (ground/ surface) attack capability, these might be very busy choppers...

[Gabriele]

They will have exactly the same non-capability for a few years, due to the delays with FASGW.

So, when Lynx 8 and Sea Skua go out, we are looking at some 3 years of capability gap before Sea Venom and Martlet enter service. And that is if there aren't further delays.

[marktigger]

As Merlin does not have any (ground/ surface) attack capability, these might be very busy choppers...

thought merlin could carry the .5 M3 and the GPMG.

but yes merlin should get the Martlet & seavenom (I wonder if we ever sell martlet to the Americans will they call it wildcat)

[Gabriele]

thought merlin could carry the .5 M3 and the GPMG.

Wildcat can use the M3 too.

[shark bait]

Someone suggested this the other day and thought it would be a good discussion.

Should more wildcat replace Apache?

Sure it wouldn't be as capable, but considering the extra utility, commonality, new technology, and savings from deleting a whole fleet, it then begins to look more attractive. Thoughts?

[Little J]

Think the Wildcat would have to take up the slack from the reduced Apache fleet.

In a sort of related question...
Could the Wildcat be used in the same way as the yanks use the mh-6 little bird? Mini guns, 2.75 rockets, blokes sitting on planks on the side of the aircraft etc.

[Old RN]

Talking of the Apache role vs Wildcat makes wonder if a key issue has been missed. When the attack helicopter role was being defined in the 1970s and 1980s the target was massed tanks in the German plains and the "wonder weapon" was the ~4km range anti-tank missile (eg TOW). We are now looking at very different target spectrum with sensor and weapon ranges multiple times the TOW/Hellfire solution. Brimstone 2 is talking of a range from a helicopter of 30+km! Sensors are distributed and linked (mini drones etc.). Does this change the logic of the "Apache" solution?

[arfah]

...................

[shark bait]

We are now looking at very different target spectrum with sensor and weapon ranges multiple times the TOW/Hellfire solution. Brimstone 2 is talking of a range from a helicopter of 30+km! Sensors are distributed and linked (mini drones etc.). Does this change the logic of the "Apache" solution?

I agree, I think it certainly does change the logic, is the original concept still valid?

The Apache certainly has a formidable reputation, but how much of that will remain relevant as the battlefield develops?

It's certainly an interesting topic to explore.

[ArmChairCivvy]

That Brimstone range, is it from some source?

Certainly will be different in comparison to being launched from altitude when the launch platform already gives it a good velocity.

[shark bait]

I guess it come from brimstone 2 having double the range.

That range enables new tactics thay bypass the attack helicopter.

Through the use of distributed sensors, like UAV's and pseudo satellitesto to spot armour, the longer ranged missiles can be used from utility helicopters, or even trucks, from a none line of sight position. The chain is completed with the advanced autonomous mode on the missile, which could be an alternative method of countering armoured formations.

[LordJim]

For the RN at least the Wildcat is going to be a very valuable platform. I agree that in the case of the AAC and RM fitting the LMM should be a no brainer as the work will basically have already been done. Given that the AAC seems to be looking at the Wildcat to replace the Lynx AH9 it is the RM who would really benefit but have three fleets doesn't make sense and the numbers involved are not that large. In an ideal world the Wildcat would be part of the network including the AH-64E, UAVs etc. acting as a further node, and would have improved sensors for its recce mission along the lines of the US Army's OH-58D and its successor. But that would be an ideal world.

[LordJim]

The Brimstone 2 having double the range still makes the AH-64E a very viable platform. Just because it has the range does not mean it will be used when fired for platforms other than fast jets. With a network of platforms, both ground and sir based the area which a Apache can cover and engage targets will in theory be greatly increased, but given current rules of engagement I doubt the Brimstone 2's range will be fully exploited until the targeting loop matches its capability.

[shark bait]

I agree the is still Apache is still a viable platform, but I suspect the gap is closing.

Real savings are made through the removal of entire fleets (Harrier), I wonder if a larger fleet of solid utility/attack platforms, would be more valuable than a specialist AH fleet.

Looking forward, there is an opportunity with the Merlin and Puma replacements for a larger utility/attack platform. That would reduce platform types further, we could go from 6, down to 3, accepting a small performance trade off, for big savings that could be reinvested into a larger overall fleet.

• A light utility/attack platform - Wildcat
• A medium utility/attack platform - V280?
• A heavy utility platform - Chinook

[LordJim]

A medium/attack platform would be a step backwards, reinventing the Mi-24 for the 21st century. We will probably be keeping the Merlin I in service at least as long as we kept the Wessex and are keeping the Puma in service, As long as number do not drop below what is already planned, I would be happy to have the Wildcat, Merlin, Apache, Chinook and a very small number of specialist platforms.

The Apache is far more that a Hellfire 2/Brimstone 2 launch platform and the shame is that the AAC seems to be intent on using the Wildcat as a light utility platform despite its AH prefix. It could play a valuable role in supporting the Apache but to do so need substantial upgrades that do not seem to be in its future. At a bear minimum it needs the optical sensors of the RN variant to aid its supposed recce role.

[shark bait]

medium/attack platform would be a step backwards

How so? surely the increased speed and range of a modern vertical lift platform, perhaps a tilt rotor, would be a huge advantage.

[ArmChairCivvy]

From Flightglobal (in March):

The US does then seems to be thinking of taking the "step backwards":

". Maj Gen Michael Lundy, commander of the army aviation centre of excellence at Fort Rucker, Alabama, says the light armed reconnaissance requirement, around since LHX and the subsequent Boeing-Sikorsky RAH-66 Comanche project, has not disappeared. That is even as new "manned-unmanned teams" comprised of the Boeing AH-64 Apache and Textron RQ-7 Shadow allow for the Kiowa’s retirement.

The army and US Special Operations Command still need the light attack reconnaissance capability, Lundy says. The US Marine Corps, meanwhile, needs a medium assault variant and the navy would field a “lower-end medium variant” for anti-submarine warfare.

“We’ve invested all of our time, effort and money” in the mid-size category that would replace the Apache and Sikorsky UH-60 Black Hawk through the Joint MultiRole (JMR) technology demonstration, Lundy says – but he still would not discount FVL Light."

The bolding is mine
- where they've got now (we have it funded to get to the same space in terms of capability)
- what's the next priority... seems to be that step backwards! We can wait until Puma OSD will bring a big gap into that medium "space" in our fleets and respective capabilities

[LordJim]

My view on a combined medium utility/attack (AUH) platform is that it will end up being a jack of all trades but master of none. It will be outperformed by dedicated attack platforms but be too expensive to use as a utility platform like the puma. There is a case for the UK to by a small number of Ospreys for use by special forces but cost will be a big issue for any larger purchase. We would probably end up with only half as many platforms as the current Puma and Apache fleets.

Following US demonstrator programmes is great but the recent rotor craft projects (with he exception of the Viper and Venom) bear striking similarities with our AFV programmes. In an ideal world our Air-mobile and Commando Brigades would have dedicated helicopter regiments like the US Army, comprising attack, utility and recce assets, with additional assets held at divisional level. We are never going to get that no matter how great our "Dear Santa" list is and how good we are.

I do not know the OSD for the Apache but I wouldn't be surprised if it is more than 20 years in the future. Yes many bright ideas will come along, but usually they do not give a substantial increase in capability or are not cost effective. AUH platforms like the Mi-24 have proven effective in low intensity conflicts but have also proven quite vulnerable to MANPADS. Whereas most modern western rotorcraft have substantial heat reduction measures regarding their engines, I have not seen any on the MV-22 or its variants and those of the Osprey must generate a fair amount of heat.

I would be happy if our existing fleets of utility and transport helicopters had effective self defence capabilities, both active and passive. I would like to see the AAC Wildcat have more active capability and ensure we have 2 full AAC regiments of the AH-64E. Networking both these platforms and looping in UAVS, UCAVs and fixed wing assets is the way forwards for the UK I believe especially if the RN Wildcat is also included.

Except for a limited number of SOCOM units, I do not think the US is going to see any major step change in its helicopter fleets for at least one maybe two decades. The Pentagon has too many higher priority programmes and what they currently field works and will continue to do so through repeated upgrades. We should do the same and make the most of what we have already got which we always seem to have difficulty achieving unless UORs are issued.

[arfah]

I'd rather see the MOD procure more used SA330 airframes, ship them off to Romania for conversion to Puma HC.2 and create an additional squadron (or two) in direct support of the Army.

Wildcat would better serve the RN/RM.

[GibMariner]

RN Wildcat ZZ522 which arrived on a C-17 on May 5th has been conducting day & night flying around Gib.




https://www.flickr.com/photos/mosh70/se ... 7792147882
https://www.flickr.com/photos/davidparo ... 5793061973

http://chronicle.gi/2016/05/wildcat-tri ... -the-rock/
http://chronicle.gi/2016/05/raf-cadets- ... elicopter/

[marktigger]

i do wonder will the puma,merlin and wildcat be replaced by a single type?

[GingerZombie]

i do wonder will the puma,merlin and wildcat be replaced by a single type?

I think the UK will replace Puma and Merlin at a similar time to the US FVL programme so it wouldn't be surprising to see a common medium-lift type bought from the US. The wildcat wouldn't be considered part of that though, it's not in step with that since it's so new. I expect it might end up being the last manned small rotary aircraft the RN operates though, considering it will probably be in service until 2050 or something.