Apache Attack Helicopter (British Army Air Corps)

[The Armchair Soldier]

3 Regiment Army Air Corps is currently commanding all helicopters flying in support of the multinational force at Grafenwoehr Training Area in southern Germany as part of Exercise Swift Response. The unit is planning and executing strike missions by Apache attack helicopters from its 663 Squadron, as well as moving troops and equipment with RAF Chinooks and Pumas, US Army UH-60 Blackhawks and USAF Ospreys.

[Gabriele]

The Foreign Military Sale request for the remanufacture of 50 Apache AH1 to Block III standard, including passage to the US engines, is placed: if nothing nasty happens, early next year the Main Gate should be passed and the actual order inked. http://www.dsca.mil/major-arms-sales/un ... elicopters

[~UNiOnJaCk~]

So how many of those 50 airframes will likely go on to constitute the operational fleet (as in will be on immediate call) and how many will constitute the fleet in depth as presumably the older AH.1s currently under mothballs have had their death warrant signed with this deal?

Also a little surprised to hear of how extensive the attached logistics support package seems to be. Is that usual for UK purchases as i guess i expected us to be largely self-sufficient on that front? Should it be taken as a sign of just how different the Block III standard is if even we are requiring some fairly intense liaison to help bring it in to service?

[bobp]

One of the problems with the Apaches if I recall was lack of spares, a lot of the airframes were cannabilised to keep the rest flying. So I guess with this order they are learning from earlier mistakes. Anyhow this is good news that we are getting 50 BLOCK III models .

[Ron5]

Don't count your chickens, the order hasn't been placed yet and won't be for a while.

[ArmChairCivvy]

So how many of those 50 airframes will likely go on to constitute the operational fleet (as in will be on immediate call) and how many will constitute the fleet in depth as presumably the older AH.1s currently under mothballs have had their death warrant signed with this deal?

Also a little surprised to hear of how extensive the attached logistics support package seems to be. Is that usual for UK purchases as i guess i expected us to be largely self-sufficient on that front? Should it be taken as a sign of just how different the Block III standard is if even we are requiring some fairly intense liaison to help bring it in to service?

Yes, maintainable in the field, but real hangar queens if you count in the in-depth maintenance vs. flight hours.

My recollection is that the AHs from A-stan were flown back (as freight) for in-depth maintenance, and the facilities set up in-country were not primitive. Yes... lack of spares and an accounting system forcing Just-in-Time inventory levels (i.e. never on the shelf when needed). Ehmm, not forgetting the minor omission of not budgeting for training. keeping all those wonderful machines in hangars for the first two years? And the Brit modifications leading to the IOC of firing missiles only from one side... a sorry tale, but a wonderful capability once the wrinkles had been ironed out.

[Gabriele]

Well, the Attack helicopter force now has 4 frontline squadrons, an Operational Training Squadron and a Conversion To Type Squadron.
Each year, a regiment with 2 squadrons is to be at very high readiness, with one squadron focused on supporting the Airborne Battlegroup and one the Commando Battlegroup.
Assuming the squadrons stay at 8 helicopters each, you do the math.

[Ninetyfifth]

http://www.dsca.mil/sites/default/files ... _15-50.pdf

[jonas]

Don't count your chickens, the order hasn't been placed yet and won't be for a while.

Bearing in mind that AW are lobbying very hard to get the upgrade themselves, nothing is yet certain. In one instance it will save UK jobs, then again when they did the same for the original batch they managed to double the original price of £20m per unit.

Sorry to say that IMO it's got to the US, if we are going to get value for money.

[jonas]

Well, the Attack helicopter force now has 4 frontline squadrons, an Operational Training Squadron and a Conversion To Type Squadron.
Each year, a regiment with 2 squadrons is to be at very high readiness, with one squadron focused on supporting the Airborne Battlegroup and one the Commando Battlegroup.
Assuming the squadrons stay at 8 helicopters each, you do the math.

We originally had 66 Apaches, we have at the moment as far as I am aware 15 of them in Mothballs. I assume that they are being canibalised and will play no further role in the numbers game.
So although we are getting (hopefully) 50 aircraft upgraded to the latest configuration, we are still losing a significant number of airframes.

Seems to me we are being fed the same old story, these aircraft (likewise with RN ships) are far more capable than their predecessors. The fact remains that we are once again having our assets cut.

[Ron5]

Don't count your chickens, the order hasn't been placed yet and won't be for a while.

Bearing in mind that AW are lobbying very hard to get the upgrade themselves, nothing is yet certain. In one instance it will save UK jobs, then again when they did the same for the original batch they managed to double the original price of £20m per unit.

Sorry to say that IMO it's got to the US, if we are going to get value for money.

There's an article in the online DT that says the order would be placed next year. Presumably after the defense review has completed. If Boeing gets the order (and I agree, they should), maybe Westlands will get some work thrown their way to keep them happy. A dozen more Merlins for PW wouldn't go amiss. The recent batch for the Italians CS&R looked very tasty. I seem to remember they were a reasonable price too. Gabrielle would know.

[marktigger]

or some AW139's to replace Lynx ah9

[jonas]

Don't count your chickens, the order hasn't been placed yet and won't be for a while.

Bearing in mind that AW are lobbying very hard to get the upgrade themselves, nothing is yet certain. In one instance it will save UK jobs, then again when they did the same for the original batch they managed to double the original price of £20m per unit.

Sorry to say that IMO it's got to the US, if we are going to get value for money.

There's an article in the online DT that says the order would be placed next year. Presumably after the defense review has completed. If Boeing gets the order (and I agree, they should), maybe Westlands will get some work thrown their way to keep them happy. A dozen more Merlins for PW wouldn't go amiss. The recent batch for the Italians CS&R looked very tasty. I seem to remember they were a reasonable price too. Gabrielle would know.

At the end of the day it's all up to Finmeccanica isn't it. I wonder how they view Westland in these times of financial prudence.

[Gabriele]

Well, the Attack helicopter force now has 4 frontline squadrons, an Operational Training Squadron and a Conversion To Type Squadron.
Each year, a regiment with 2 squadrons is to be at very high readiness, with one squadron focused on supporting the Airborne Battlegroup and one the Commando Battlegroup.
Assuming the squadrons stay at 8 helicopters each, you do the math.

We originally had 66 Apaches, we have at the moment as far as I am aware 15 of them in Mothballs. I assume that they are being canibalised and will play no further role in the numbers game.
So although we are getting (hopefully) 50 aircraft upgraded to the latest configuration, we are still losing a significant number of airframes.

Seems to me we are being fed the same old story, these aircraft (likewise with RN ships) are far more capable than their predecessors. The fact remains that we are once again having our assets cut.

They were 67 before one was written off, and there was an additional frontline squadron (two, technically, but one has de facto been a full time Operational Training Unit at least since 2009, leaving 5, now 4 "true" frontline squadrons).

Earlier still, they were meant to be more than 90, and 847 NAS was supposed to become a 8-Apache squadron for shiboard use in support of the Commando brigade...

Of course numbers have been falling. As always...

A dozen more Merlins for PW wouldn't go amiss. The recent batch for the Italians CS&R looked very tasty. I seem to remember they were a reasonable price too. Gabrielle would know.

The HH-101 CAESAR programme (for 12 or 15 helicopters, not yet entirely clear if the 3 options have been confirmed or not) has, according to 2014 documents, a 740 million euro pricetag, so not exactly cheap. The HH-101 comes pretty damn well equipped though, that's true. Air refueling probe, big EO/IR turret. special forces comms and gear, a great EW / DAS suite, the LOAM obstacle avoidance LIDAR sensor, 3 miniguns as standard fit etcetera etcetera.

Don't think AgustaWestland can realistically expect any new, significant purchase anytime soon from the UK. The most i would ever dare hoping for would be the update of the famous 8 missing Merlin HM1. That would be great. But even that does not look likely.

More long term, one would hope that when the Puma goes in 2024 or so, something does replace it...

And there is the issue of completing replacement of the Lynx AH9A, particularly with regard to the Special Forces squadron, 657. The abortive programme for 8 Wildcat LAH, started and then killed in 2011, might perhaps make a comeback.
Unless 657 vanishes along with the Lynx AH9A.

[RetroSicotte]

So who predicts that because they mothballed 16 now, Cameron will claim this is a one for one replacement?

[shark bait]

or some AW139's to replace Lynx ah9

Gazelle too?

[The Other Chris]

or some AW139's to replace Lynx ah9

Gazelle too?

Watchkeeper WK450 is the nominal replacement for Gazelle.

[marktigger]

interesting do they expect senior officers to ride it like a broomstick?

[shark bait]

really?

I would like to see a small optionally manned helo as a gazelle replacement (optimistic I know), for use by both the army and navy. I was indicating that such a replacement could keep westland ticking over for a while.

[marktigger]

its were a small helicopter is more flexible than a drone. something like a huges 500 or ec135 would be a good choice.

Or dig the plans out for scout put a modern cockpit and engine on it!

[The Other Chris]

You probably want to keep an eye on the RWUAS, RWUAS-CCD and TMUAS programmes.

[Gabriele]

or some AW139's to replace Lynx ah9

Gazelle too?

Watchkeeper WK450 is the nominal replacement for Gazelle.

Surely not for what it does in Northern Ireland and around Hereford, or even in BATUS, or even Boscombe Down, though. It amazed me to no end, but some F-35 related stuff was being tested in flight on a Gazelle in Boscombe, not long ago. All this stuff is not Watchkeeper stuff.
Last year the AAC put an MX-10 EO/IR turret on a Squirrel for testing for "tasks which do not require a Wildcat".
Maybe, just maybe, that is an indirect indication of some of the thinking going on. Come 2018, when the Gazelle is expected to bow out for good, the Squirrel should also be replaced in its training role. Maybe...?

Joint Helicopter Command late last year was also playing with the thought of "surrogate training helicopters", cheaper machines with in-built simulator and cockpits equipped in such a way to passably impersonate Apache and perhaps Wildcat for cheaper basic training hours.

Whichever way you look at it, if the problem was keeping AW working on helicopters, there would be plenty of solutions: quite a few serious requirements are out there, all with question marks on them.

[marktigger]

if the NI sqn is to stay and do the role maybe buying same as what the PSNI operate might be an option

[Dahedd]

really?

I would like to see a small optionally manned helo as a gazelle replacement (optimistic I know), for use by both the army and navy. I was indicating that such a replacement could keep westland ticking over for a while.

Weren't they testing out an Augusta Westland SW-4 as an optionally manned / UAV chopper for the RN ?

Edit..found the link http://m.aviationweek.com/awin/royal-na ... y-wing-uas

Surely if that was to work then that would be a suitable Gazelle replacement ?

[shark bait]

Weren't they testing out an Augusta Westland SW-4 as an optionally manned / UAV chopper for the RN ?

Edit..found the link http://m.aviationweek.com/awin/royal-na ... y-wing-uas

Surely if that was to work then that would be a suitable Gazelle replacement ?

That's exactly the product I had in mind, I like the concept, it could be good for a couple of forces and should keep Westland busy if the latest contract goes to Boeing. It's important to keep yeovil going IMO