Apache Attack Helicopter (British Army Air Corps)

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mr.fred
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Re: Apache Attack Helicopter (British Army Air Corps)

Post by mr.fred »

topman wrote:I didn't say that.
Perhaps not explicitly, but it could be reasonably inferred.
“If foreign equipment x is cheaper than homemade equipment y then we should buy equipment x unless a different department makes up the difference”
?

Jdam
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Re: Apache Attack Helicopter (British Army Air Corps)

Post by Jdam »

There was some suggestion it was compensation to Lockheed over the warrior upgrade program.

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Re: Apache Attack Helicopter (British Army Air Corps)

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Jdam wrote:There was some suggestion it was compensation to Lockheed over the warrior upgrade program.
If that's true, they should be fired.

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ArmChairCivvy
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Re: Apache Attack Helicopter (British Army Air Corps)

Post by ArmChairCivvy »

| bit more clarity to the 50/50 split of Apache Sqrns (prior to IR) between the fast response force and the heavy (3 Div) one; the Army website 11 days ago
"The Global Response Force will be centred around an Air Manoeuvre Brigade Combat Team (BCT) and a newly established Combat Aviation BCT. They will be equipped with upgraded Apache and Chinook helicopters and integrated with strategic air transport from the RAF."
- italics added
Ever-lasting truths: Multi-year budgets/ planning by necessity have to address the painful questions; more often than not the Either-Or prevails over Both-And.
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Lord Jim
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Re: Apache Attack Helicopter (British Army Air Corps)

Post by Lord Jim »

Like with so many of our platforms on land sea and air, the number we have means they can only be in one place at a time, which has to affect the planning of deployments etc.

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ArmChairCivvy
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Re: Apache Attack Helicopter (British Army Air Corps)

Post by ArmChairCivvy »

Sure, just the first time I saw
- the term ATF1 used
- and also the integration/ preplanning for it to get 'somewhere' plenty quick
Ever-lasting truths: Multi-year budgets/ planning by necessity have to address the painful questions; more often than not the Either-Or prevails over Both-And.
If everyone is thinking the same, then someone is not thinking (attributed to Patton)

Lord Jim
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Re: Apache Attack Helicopter (British Army Air Corps)

Post by Lord Jim »

So are both Apache Regiments going to be permanently operating in the 1st Aviation Brigade then?

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ArmChairCivvy
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Re: Apache Attack Helicopter (British Army Air Corps)

Post by ArmChairCivvy »

Not airborne, not air assault, but with " the Wildcat helicopters of 1st Regiment Army Air Corps (AAC), together with the attack firepower of the Apache helicopter used by 3rd and 4th Regiment AAC, 1st Aviation Brigade is designed to unite the resources previously split between the Aviation Reconnaissance Force and the Attack Helicopter Force, and as a Brigade is a capability distinct from previous airmobile and air assault brigades. As well as the tasks conducted by 5th Regiment AAC and their Gazelle helicopters, the reservists of 6th Regiment AAC and the specialist aviation mechanical engineers of 7th Battalion Royal Electrical and Mechanical Engineers complete the lineup of Brigade units."

The idea is (?) that from a single pool one can best generate multiple, concurrent task forces that may be heading to different parts of the world - like the high-readiness element ATF1 in the first place.
Ever-lasting truths: Multi-year budgets/ planning by necessity have to address the painful questions; more often than not the Either-Or prevails over Both-And.
If everyone is thinking the same, then someone is not thinking (attributed to Patton)

Lord Jim
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Re: Apache Attack Helicopter (British Army Air Corps)

Post by Lord Jim »

Cheers, that actually makes sense and I am surprised the Army actually got it right for once, or so it seem for now.

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ArmChairCivvy
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Re: Apache Attack Helicopter (British Army Air Corps)

Post by ArmChairCivvy »

Now :) , if someone could find out if the Airmobile BCT is the old 16X minus helicopters?
- of course moving (consolidating) helicopters and their support can be quite quickly done (no changes to basing?)
- but so is renaming an existing bde
Ever-lasting truths: Multi-year budgets/ planning by necessity have to address the painful questions; more often than not the Either-Or prevails over Both-And.
If everyone is thinking the same, then someone is not thinking (attributed to Patton)

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Re: Apache Attack Helicopter (British Army Air Corps)

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Lord Jim wrote:Cheers, that actually makes sense and I am surprised the Army actually got it right for once, or so it seem for now.
Well apart from the US made, more expensive, less mature, inferior capability, missile thing.

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Re: Apache Attack Helicopter (British Army Air Corps)

Post by Lord Jim »

That part I still do not understand. Were they not confident in a Helicopter launched version of Brimstone and so decided that a US product where all the risk in on then rather than the UK? Or did someone mention commonality with allies during a presentation? I wonder if anyone mentioned that the US missile is basically there version of Brimstone because they didn't want to buy another non US made product? It is all very strange how the Army has thrown away the chance to have a common missile system in use on Fast Jets, Helicopters and hopefully ground vehicles, as well as having a good chance at exports.

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Re: Apache Attack Helicopter (British Army Air Corps)

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Lord Jim wrote:That part I still do not understand. Were they not confident in a Helicopter launched version of Brimstone and so decided that a US product where all the risk in on then rather than the UK? Or did someone mention commonality with allies during a presentation? I wonder if anyone mentioned that the US missile is basically there version of Brimstone because they didn't want to buy another non US made product? It is all very strange how the Army has thrown away the chance to have a common missile system in use on Fast Jets, Helicopters and hopefully ground vehicles, as well as having a good chance at exports.
From a chat I had a few years back (2019) at Wattisham the AAC knew Hellfire had used it to good effect and trusted it and at the time of that chat one of my fellow Officers was working on the Spear program and nothing he said could change there mind

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Re: Apache Attack Helicopter (British Army Air Corps)

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Lord Jim wrote:That part I still do not understand. Were they not confident in a Helicopter launched version of Brimstone and so decided that a US product where all the risk in on then rather than the UK? Or did someone mention commonality with allies during a presentation? I wonder if anyone mentioned that the US missile is basically there version of Brimstone because they didn't want to buy another non US made product? It is all very strange how the Army has thrown away the chance to have a common missile system in use on Fast Jets, Helicopters and hopefully ground vehicles, as well as having a good chance at exports.
Army procurement is effed up. Period.

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Re: Apache Attack Helicopter (British Army Air Corps)

Post by Lord Jim »

Wee seem to be setting our sight higher for our next family of ATGWs, especially with the fire on the move requirement. All the US Army's requirements can be met by members of the Spike Family, but the new Joint Missile to replace TOW, Hellfire and Maverick is home grown and so seem to have been chosen. THE US reinvented the wheel hear and we are now throwing away one we built that is more advance now, to buy the US wheel as well as also trying to invent a better wheel at the same time that will cost more then the US one and so will lose out in sales to the US wheel just like few countries have taken Brimstone but opted for cheaper US munitions. As stated Governmental procurement is really screwed up nowadays. They spend more and the Troops end up waiting years for something that an existing system already does and could be delivered yesterday, but it isn't made at home.

Oh dear I have started to rant, better stop. :D

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Re: Apache Attack Helicopter (British Army Air Corps)

Post by Ron5 »

See page 5 of this month's Desider magazine ..

https://des.mod.uk/desider-magazine/

MBDA didn't get the message in time :(

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whitelancer
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Re: Apache Attack Helicopter (British Army Air Corps)

Post by whitelancer »

Its truly baffling that Brimstone isn't going to be fitted to Apache. It would be good to get an explanation from the MOD as to why. The only reasons I can think for not fitting it is either the US has said we cant or they want a ridiculous amount of money to do so.

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Re: Apache Attack Helicopter (British Army Air Corps)

Post by ArmChairCivvy »

whitelancer wrote:Its truly baffling that Brimstone isn't going to be fitted to Apache.
While I agree, could it be that launch speed / altitude of the platform (fast jet vs helos) are just too different and would require mods?
- this argument probably is not relevant to UAVs (fly higher)

But Brimstone has been trialled at sea, and proposed for land platforms.
Ever-lasting truths: Multi-year budgets/ planning by necessity have to address the painful questions; more often than not the Either-Or prevails over Both-And.
If everyone is thinking the same, then someone is not thinking (attributed to Patton)

Lord Jim
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Re: Apache Attack Helicopter (British Army Air Corps)

Post by Lord Jim »

ArmChairCivvy wrote:But Brimstone has been trialled at sea, and proposed for land platforms.
Exactly, there only seems to be an issue with using air launched munitions on slower or ground based assets when you are talking about those that use air breathing propulsion systems. You might get a reduction in range, and require an off board sensor, but none of that would apply to installing Brimstone on the Guardian. The only reason we would shoot ourselves in the foot like this is if the "Bean Counters" decided to save a few pennies and have a weapon the US paid to have integrated with the Guardian.

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Re: Apache Attack Helicopter (British Army Air Corps)

Post by Tempest414 »

Lord Jim wrote:
ArmChairCivvy wrote:But Brimstone has been trialled at sea, and proposed for land platforms.
Exactly, there only seems to be an issue with using air launched munitions on slower or ground based assets when you are talking about those that use air breathing propulsion systems. You might get a reduction in range, and require an off board sensor, but none of that would apply to installing Brimstone on the Guardian. The only reason we would shoot ourselves in the foot like this is if the "Bean Counters" decided to save a few pennies and have a weapon the US paid to have integrated with the Guardian.
Don't rule out the AAC and the Army having its say also if they are being pushed on every penny they might be taking a long term view go with the US weapon now and bring Brimstone and Spear later once it is on other platforms

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ArmChairCivvy
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Re: Apache Attack Helicopter (British Army Air Corps)

Post by ArmChairCivvy »

Tempest414 wrote: go with the US weapon now and bring Brimstone [and Spear] later
Well, going with Hellfire on Apaches and on the UAVs that will be flying supporting circuits will rather make the (LM's?) VL-Hellfire pod on the back of a Stryker - read: Boxer - an appetising offer
- BLOS out-of-the-box ;)
Ever-lasting truths: Multi-year budgets/ planning by necessity have to address the painful questions; more often than not the Either-Or prevails over Both-And.
If everyone is thinking the same, then someone is not thinking (attributed to Patton)

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Re: Apache Attack Helicopter (British Army Air Corps)

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A Boeing test engineer who worked on the firings commented:

“The mmW autonomous shot from a moving and banking platform against an off-axis target with the missile hitting the tank’s turret ring was the most aggressive shot I have ever seen in my 30 years of the Apache programme.”

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ArmChairCivvy
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Re: Apache Attack Helicopter (British Army Air Corps)

Post by ArmChairCivvy »

Who could put it better

A shame that we have only been able to demonstrate it (from a fast jet) against a stationary tank 'park'.
Ever-lasting truths: Multi-year budgets/ planning by necessity have to address the painful questions; more often than not the Either-Or prevails over Both-And.
If everyone is thinking the same, then someone is not thinking (attributed to Patton)

Lord Jim
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Re: Apache Attack Helicopter (British Army Air Corps)

Post by Lord Jim »

Think of the export possibilities we have lost not having Brimstone on a rotary platform like our AH-64E Apache Guardians. It would be a superior though more expensive option, and offer the same cross platform capability, being able to be used for Fast Jets, fired from ground based platforms and even at sea. That would certainly provided and sustained much needed high end jobs in the UK and more than recouped the investment in the programme.

Instead we are buying a inferior US made weapon, where we will not gain the multi platform benefits the US will gain replacing Hellfire and Maverick, and will have to set up a new support infrastructure. Sure we will save a few pennies on procurement after all that has been taken into consideration, but do we know what the US were going to charge us for integrating the Brimstone on the AH-64E? Did they ramp it up to make the US offering more enticing?

Having failed to gain the level of exports that was hoped for so far with Brimstone even with its excellent combat record, we have again shot ourselves in the foot as well as the foot of UK industry, with a short term decision, shortly after publishing a Review that made mush of the Governments desire to encourage and support British industry especially in areas we were world class, of which guided weapon is one. If overseas weapons were an option why did we not look at the Spike family that is already integrated with the Apache Guardian and combat proven? This has to be all about money rather that the best capability or what is best for the UK.

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