Future UK Maritime Patrol Options

[downsizer]

If they were to kill the Tornado what would be the chances of speeding up Brimstone and Storm Shadow integration on Typhoon?

Desperately trying to do that now so they can kill it off early.

[Pseudo]

If they were to kill the Tornado what would be the chances of speeding up Brimstone and Storm Shadow integration on Typhoon?

Desperately trying to do that now so they can kill it off early.

That's good to hear. The Tornado has given sterling service, but given its age I'd imagine that the maintenance costs must be pretty prohibitive. Though, I do wonder how decent AtG capabilities on Typhoon will affect F-35 purchases. I'd imagine that part of the reason that their was no urgency in expanding the Typhoons AtG capabilities for so long was because the RAF figured that an AtG capable Typhoon would undermine the case for the F-35.

[bobp]

Should the story be true there will be the cost of integrating UK specific weapons, and other systems and they wont come cheaply.

[downsizer]

That's good to hear. The Tornado has given sterling service, but given its age I'd imagine that the maintenance costs must be pretty prohibitive. Though, I do wonder how decent AtG capabilities on Typhoon will affect F-35 purchases. I'd imagine that part of the reason that their was no urgency in expanding the Typhoons AtG capabilities for so long was because the RAF figured that an AtG capable Typhoon would undermine the case for the F-35.

Er, no. It was down to partner nations having no urgency. F35 was to replace Harrier. Nothing is replacing tornado and the DPOC money to replace tornado has been ploughed into F35.

Another point to bear in mind, when Tornado goes we'll be down to 5 offensive sqns. With QRA north and south, plus the FIs, it leaves the cupboard bare. The three remaining Tornado sqns are actually pretty handy to move some mud.

[downsizer]

Should the story be true there will be the cost of integrating UK specific weapons, and other systems and they wont come cheaply.

If it's true, and it's a big if, just buy fully into the spam programme. Don't fuck around this time. It worked with C17, it can work with this.

[Pseudo]

That's good to hear. The Tornado has given sterling service, but given its age I'd imagine that the maintenance costs must be pretty prohibitive. Though, I do wonder how decent AtG capabilities on Typhoon will affect F-35 purchases. I'd imagine that part of the reason that their was no urgency in expanding the Typhoons AtG capabilities for so long was because the RAF figured that an AtG capable Typhoon would undermine the case for the F-35.

Er, no. It was down to partner nations having no urgency. F35 was to replace Harrier. Nothing is replacing tornado and the DPOC money to replace tornado has been ploughed into F35.

If nothing was going to replace Tornado how would we have maintained the capability? And 138 sounds like a lot of F-35's to be buying just to replace Harrier.

Another point to bear in mind, when Tornado goes we'll be down to 5 offensive sqns. With QRA north and south, plus the FIs, it leaves the cupboard bare. The three remaining Tornado sqns are actually pretty handy to move some mud.

How many of the Tornado's in those squadrons are operational? Wasn't their an issue with numbers available for use against IS?

[downsizer]

1. DPOC was going to replace tornado. As stated the the DPOC money has been rolled into F35
2. We haven't committed to 138 F35s.
3. If we did, that's an almost like for like Harrier replacement.
4. All the Tornados in the 3 Sqns are operational. Define operational though. Every aircraft isn't flying around with the full spectrum of TES kit. Thats a funding issue, buy more kit, more can be at TES.

[WhitestElephant]

Er, no. It was down to partner nations having no urgency. F35 was to replace Harrier. Nothing is replacing tornado and the DPOC money to replace tornado has been ploughed into F35.

Another point to bear in mind, when Tornado goes we'll be down to 5 offensive sqns. With QRA north and south, plus the FIs, it leaves the cupboard bare. The three remaining Tornado sqns are actually pretty handy to move some mud.

Bear in mind that is also temporary once the two planned F-35 squadrons become operational, bringing us back up to 7. And then who knows what!

Anyway, 5 Typhoon squadrons and 2 F-35 squadrons has a lot going for it, being entirely multi-role, amoung other reasons.

[Gabriele]

This presentation by Group Captain Paul Godfrey is technically about the F-35... but it is actually most interesting for this thread, as the RAF "transition to 2020" page has a photo of P-8 Poseidon in it, right to the side of the F-35.
http://t.co/0KIDPFvW1P

Downloading the Power Point document, however, you'll discover that the slide is accompanied by notes which make no mention of P-8, and actually include "lose MPA capability", so that makes it pretty confusing.

Sentinel and Shadow and Reaper will all go (not too surprisingly, the first two are currently lifed to 2018 and the latter to 2019), replaced by the mythical SCAVENGER programme for a new MALE UAV. However, SCAVENGER went pretty depressingly silent ever since the joint project with France (TELEMOS) went sour; what is actually happening now, is anybody's guess. There now is renewed talk for an Italy-France-Germany MALE for the 2020s, while the UK side has fallen out of the frame.

[downsizer]

Er, no. It was down to partner nations having no urgency. F35 was to replace Harrier. Nothing is replacing tornado and the DPOC money to replace tornado has been ploughed into F35.

Another point to bear in mind, when Tornado goes we'll be down to 5 offensive sqns. With QRA north and south, plus the FIs, it leaves the cupboard bare. The three remaining Tornado sqns are actually pretty handy to move some mud.

Bear in mind that is also temporary once the two planned F-35 squadrons become operational, bringing us back up to 7. And then who knows what!

Anyway, 5 Typhoon squadrons and 2 F-35 squadrons has a lot going for it, being entirely multi-role, amoung other reasons.

I know it's temporary, but what will be the gap between tornado OSD and F35 FOC? No one really can answer that, and I'm not interested in manufacturer or MoD propaganda, I'm talking real world.

[Tiny Toy]

I knew I had read somewhere that in ref to the expendable MAD drones, they would be cheap at $5000 per batch of 100. Do you think that this is a realistic price as it does seem extremely cheap.

They are not only cheap to manufacture, they are also extremely cheap to run. I really like the idea of putting a MAD pod on QinetiQ Zephyrs, they stay most of the time at high altitude and then swoop down every so often to recce a strip. This would cost nothing in fuel, they'd stay up there for years, and for the price of each unit you could have a bunch of them all running in parallel. Only thing to worry about is collision avoidance.

I don't know what the weight of the MAD pods is though, that would seem to be the primary consideration.

[Gabriele]

I knew I had read somewhere that in ref to the expendable MAD drones, they would be cheap at $5000 per batch of 100. Do you think that this is a realistic price as it does seem extremely cheap.

They are not only cheap to manufacture, they are also extremely cheap to run. I really like the idea of putting a MAD pod on QinetiQ Zephyrs, they stay most of the time at high altitude and then swoop down every so often to recce a strip. This would cost nothing in fuel, they'd stay up there for years, and for the price of each unit you could have a bunch of them all running in parallel. Only thing to worry about is collision avoidance.

I don't know what the weight of the MAD pods is though, that would seem to be the primary consideration.

I don't think the Zephyr could work that way. As it is solar powered and needs to always stay at very high altitude, so much so that it is considered a pseudo-satellite. It only loses altitude during the night when it consumes battery power. As soon as the sun comes out again, it picks up altitude again as it must stay above clouds for maximum efficiency. I don't think you could ask a Zephyr to go down from 50.000+ feet to 600 and up again...
It would fly higher than the P-8 itself, and mounting the MAD on it, even if possible, would not be helpful at all. You have to go really low and make passes over the suspect underwater contact for the MAD to have any chance to pick it up, and the Zephyr is not the right kind of platform for those evolutions.

[Tiny Toy]

I don't think the Zephyr could work that way.

It's launched from ground level so it clearly has the punch to be able to gain the altitude? Battery full - dive - sweep - climb - recharge.

[shark bait]

How about from an airship?

[Tiny Toy]

How about from an airship?

Coincidentally I recently attended an open day for Hybrid Air Vehicles at Cardington to look at the Airlander project. The materials technology is very impressive. However it would be a lot less expensive to run if they used hydrogen instead of helium. As it is with helium, I can see the cost advantages of other kinds of autonomous aircraft meaning that they could cover much larger areas for the same cost. Plus, airships are fairly slow - not so much of a problem if you have lots of cheap ones but a problem for fewer dearer ones to cover a wide area effectively.

[Gabriele]

I don't think the Zephyr could work that way.

It's launched from ground level so it clearly has the punch to be able to gain the altitude? Battery full - dive - sweep - climb - recharge.

Of course it is launched from the ground. But it is meant to slowly climp, and then stay in the air at high altitude for very long periods. Maybe it is possible to send it down and up, but i really wouldn't bet on it. That's not what it has been designed for, after all.

[Tiny Toy]

If you're right, then I think the way forward is probably going to be ACTUV and/or some kind of cheap UUV or USV deployed Sonar 2087. It's all got to come down to cost, and flying a bunch of conventionally powered aircraft over the kinds of distances required is expensive.

[shark bait]

Coincidentally I recently attended an open day for Hybrid Air Vehicles at Cardington to look at the Airlander project. The materials technology is very impressive. However it would be a lot less expensive to run if they used hydrogen instead of helium. As it is with helium, I can see the cost advantages of other kinds of autonomous aircraft meaning that they could cover much larger areas for the same cost. Plus, airships are fairly slow - not so much of a problem if you have lots of cheap ones but a problem for fewer dearer ones to cover a wide area effectively.

Wow that sounds interesting, how was it? I really hope they do well and I would like to see the MOD/HM Government give them some cash.

[Geoff_B]

Er, no. It was down to partner nations having no urgency. F35 was to replace Harrier. Nothing is replacing tornado and the DPOC money to replace tornado has been ploughed into F35.

Another point to bear in mind, when Tornado goes we'll be down to 5 offensive sqns. With QRA north and south, plus the FIs, it leaves the cupboard bare. The three remaining Tornado sqns are actually pretty handy to move some mud.

Bear in mind that is also temporary once the two planned F-35 squadrons become operational, bringing us back up to 7. And then who knows what!

Anyway, 5 Typhoon squadrons and 2 F-35 squadrons has a lot going for it, being entirely multi-role, amoung other reasons.

I know it's temporary, but what will be the gap between tornado OSD and F35 FOC? No one really can answer that, and I'm not interested in manufacturer or MoD propaganda, I'm talking real world.

Typhoon, thats why the are adding Brimstome and Stormshadow, but i bet we get a gap between the OSD and Typhoon being qualified, let alone the F-35B, which is going to be the early/mid 2020s.

[Geoff_B]

The rumours are definately being stied up about the MPA buy, as thats three tabloids with the same story in a matter of weeks. I guess its earmarked as urgent gap filler in the SDSR 2015, and with the Tories winning the election the SDSR (which has been on-going since last year) will be quickly finished off as no revisions for new govt required. ( I bet its more focused on capabilities and strategies this time, rather than specific systems or platforms so issues like the 2nd carrier status or Sentinel recon aircraft do not come round again and again to haunt them ).

Can't see anything being announced before the SDSR, despite Press stories.

Interesting to note some of those stories indicate a mixed buy with Poseidon and Drones, so whats the betting its a mirror of the USN programme with P-8 and Triton and a mirror of the RAAF deal. However we'll have to wait and see......

[Tiny Toy]

Coincidentally I recently attended an open day for Hybrid Air Vehicles at Cardington to look at the Airlander project. The materials technology is very impressive. However it would be a lot less expensive to run if they used hydrogen instead of helium. As it is with helium, I can see the cost advantages of other kinds of autonomous aircraft meaning that they could cover much larger areas for the same cost. Plus, airships are fairly slow - not so much of a problem if you have lots of cheap ones but a problem for fewer dearer ones to cover a wide area effectively.

Wow that sounds interesting, how was it? I really hope they do well and I would like to see the MOD/HM Government give them some cash.

It was really good, I talked to the main propulsion engineer (nice Aussie guy) and the electrical lead tech. Amazing what they have done with very little funding, and I agree it's a shame they have to scrape around for sums that the MOD should just throw at them anyway on the off chance that some of the technology works out to be useful (which seems highly likely).

[The Other Chris]

Zephyr

After a five-person hand launch the Model 7 takes a full daylight cycle to achieve its minimum operating altitude of around 40,000' which it maintains during the first night cycle before operating up to 70,000' in following daylight cycles.

The Model 8 is targeting superior performance but is expected to still follow this pattern.

HAV

The British Government is pumping millions into the company via grants and the regional development funds. Similar to the light-touch approach with REL.

[jonas]

Apart from which it has also received EU funding, so it has not exactly been left in the wilderness.

http://www.heavyliftpfi.com/news/hav-re ... nding.html

[Tiny Toy]

As I understand it they have had to raise over £1 million from crowdfunding and are still short and looking for sponsors.

[Gabriele]

As I understand it they have had to raise over £1 million from crowdfunding and are still short and looking for sponsors.

They have successfully reached the 2 million pounds target in crowdsourcing money the other day.