Future UK Maritime Patrol Options

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Gabriele
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Re: Future UK Maritime Patrol Options

Post by Gabriele »

Gabriele wrote:
a maritime patrol aircraft should at least be able to drop sonobuoys which I don't think the Triton can.
Triton can't use sonobuoys and doesn't carry weapons. It is formidable for wide area surface surveillance, but the only real ASW capability it has is the radar's ability to possibly pick up snorkeling or periscope masts poking out of the water, if i remember correctly. In other words, it is a great complement to an actual MPA, but in no way a complete MPA solution in itself.
You might also know me as Liger30, from that great forum than MP.net was.

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WhitestElephant
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Re: Future UK Maritime Patrol Options

Post by WhitestElephant »

Thinking out loud here...

We need MPA back, and P8 is the best option out there by a significant margin. We also need to replace Sentinel, Shadow and Reaper... but Scavenger/Telemos is looking dead (?).

P8 with the AAS can do MPA and replace Sentinel... I think 8 or 9 of these should be enough. We then compliment the P8 by replacing Shadow and Reaper with a modest fleet of ISTAR UCAVs that can also do maritime surveillance like MQ-4C Triton.

If I am correct, we get MPA back and still retain our world beating ISTAR capabilities.

The other concern I have is our neglected E-3D Sentry based on the ageing boeing 707. How about we replace these with the new Boeing 737 AEWAC? Especially since the P8 is based on the 737 too.

This would result in commonality...
Though we are not now that strength which in old days moved earth and heaven, that which we are, we are. - Lord Tennyson (Ulysses)

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Re: Future UK Maritime Patrol Options

Post by RetroSicotte »

The other commonality for the AWACs is the A330 AEW, the Indians are getting some. Commonality with our Voyager fleet.

Of course, commonality between MPA and AEW would be equally advantageous.

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Re: Future UK Maritime Patrol Options

Post by shark bait »

A330 at least uses Rolls Royce engines.

Ideally I would like to see the MPA and AEW based on an A330 for some massive commonality points!
Unfortunately that wont happen, and there is also rivet joint which throws a spanner in the works, so I will not see the common ISTAR platform anytime soon. Their all commercial aircraft anyway so the commonalty isn't such a deal breaker in this instance.

P8 should be a useful multi-role aircraft however.
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WhitestElephant
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Re: Future UK Maritime Patrol Options

Post by WhitestElephant »

Trouble with the A330 is that it is huge, expensive and equally expensive to operate and maintain. These factors may null any savings to be made in terms of commonality - and I suspect probably more expensive.

The image below should give some perspective: The 737 would fit somewhere between the 757 and A320 in terms of size. A great deal smaller than the A330!

Image
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Re: Future UK Maritime Patrol Options

Post by RetroSicotte »

Huh, that's something that's all too easy to forget, isn't it? You just see commercials and they all look the same and that size difference never occurs.

What size is the current E-3's platform?

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Re: Future UK Maritime Patrol Options

Post by WhitestElephant »

RetroSicotte wrote:Huh, that's something that's all too easy to forget, isn't it? You just see commercials and they all look the same and that size difference never occurs.

What size is the current E-3's platform?
Yes, it is all too easy to forget the size difference. IIRC, the A330 is the largest aircraft ever operated by the RAF.

The E-3 is a tad shorter than the 757 shown in the image.
Though we are not now that strength which in old days moved earth and heaven, that which we are, we are. - Lord Tennyson (Ulysses)

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Re: Future UK Maritime Patrol Options

Post by xav »

Any future Airbus DS (defense and space) MPA will likely be based on the A320 family, most likely A321neo as reported here

Airbus' A321neo LR Could Be A Perfect Platform For A Future European Maritime Patrol Aircraft
http://navyrecognition.com/index.php/ne ... craft.html

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Re: Future UK Maritime Patrol Options

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We should in no way be involved in a project that's purely on paper at this stage of the day.

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Re: Future UK Maritime Patrol Options

Post by -Eddie- »

downsizer wrote:We should in no way be involved in a project that's purely on paper at this stage of the day.
Agree with that. The UK will be lucky to buy 8 P-8s, never mind buying unproven kit with a smaller number of customers and a supply chain that hasn't been established.

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Re: Future UK Maritime Patrol Options

Post by WhitestElephant »

Yup, agreed. P8 is here right now, doing everything it should be doing with no fuss. We can buy right off the shelf and reap the benefits of a larger US program. Financially the soundest option our there in terms of risks and capabilities.
Though we are not now that strength which in old days moved earth and heaven, that which we are, we are. - Lord Tennyson (Ulysses)

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Re: Future UK Maritime Patrol Options

Post by xav »

You guys don't believe in the Kawasaki P-1 despite the recent rumors ?

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Re: Future UK Maritime Patrol Options

Post by Little J »

shark bait wrote:A330 at least uses Rolls Royce engines.

Ideally I would like to see the MPA and AEW based on an A330 for some massive commonality points!
P8 should be a useful multi-role aircraft however.
You don't think a twin aisle a/c a bit over sized for the job?

P-8 is really the only way to go, and (as already suggested) AAS pod's for Sentinel replacement, E-7's to replace the E-3's (if its worth replacing them yet), but I'd also get C-40 Clippers to replace the BAe 146's when the time (and money ;) ) comes.

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Re: Future UK Maritime Patrol Options

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Little J wrote:
You don't think a twin aisle a/c a bit over sized for the job?

P-8 is really the only way to go, and (as already suggested) AAS pod's for Sentinel replacement, E-7's to replace the E-3's (if its worth replacing them yet), but I'd also get C-40 Clippers to replace the BAe 146's when the time (and money ;) ) comes.
I do yes, its just the commonality would make me very happy. On the up side massive range and lots of room for sonobuoys.

I don't think the p8 is the only way to go, that's what should put the MOD in a good position, there are loads of options on the market.
Personally I quite like the c295, low cost , multirole and perfect for defending our waters. However if we want to go beyond that, tracking in the north sea, protecting carriers, we will need something bigger. C295 could also replace your bae 146.

Perhaps a high low mix where we have a big fleet of our own c295, then a small number of P8 managed in the same way project airseeker is. Could help us keep things cheap but ruins my commonality mantra !
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shark bait
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Re: Future UK Maritime Patrol Options

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xav wrote:You guys don't believe in the Kawasaki P-1 despite the recent rumors ?
What rumours? Also I don't, I think it is a very similar offering to others , but with considerably higher risk.
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RichardIC
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Re: Future UK Maritime Patrol Options

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Personally, and this is just thinking out loud, I'd go for a quick lease on an initial 4, completely vanilla USN standard P-8s (is there still excess capacity on the production line that could deliver pretty pronto?).

That could give an initial operating capability, and buy some time for a proper evaluation of both P-8 and P-1, leading to a permanent buy of (finger in the air) 8-10.

Wonder if Boeing have already done any work on sticking a probe on the P-8.

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Re: Future UK Maritime Patrol Options

Post by jonas »

RichardIC wrote:Personally, and this is just thinking out loud, I'd go for a quick lease on an initial 4, completely vanilla USN standard P-8s (is there still excess capacity on the production line that could deliver pretty pronto?).

That could give an initial operating capability, and buy some time for a proper evaluation of both P-8 and P-1, leading to a permanent buy of (finger in the air) 8-10.

Wonder if Boeing have already done any work on sticking a probe on the P-8.
Pretty sure that we would be able to get some airframes in a very short time span, talks have already taken place, about that you can be sure. As we have had seedcorn personel onboard these aircraft now for a good while, you can also be sure that we already have thorough evaluation of their capabilities.
As far as a probe and drogue system on P8, I very much doubt whether any work has been done on that score, if they are only just testing the boom system on it.
In any case why would they, the US isn't going to use it , so if that is wanted by the UK then we are going to have to stump up the cash, and that is going to cost (a lot).
Both India and Australia's MRTT were bought with the capability to operate both the boom and probe and drogue systems. Whereas the UK MOD in it's wisdom decided we only need probe and drogue. Another case of the bean counters winning over the requirements needed.

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Re: Future UK Maritime Patrol Options

Post by xav »

shark bait wrote:What rumours?
The Japanese government, lead by Prime Minister Abe, have been pushing for increased export of made in Japan defense systems for the past year. Reuters is reporting that United Kingdom is being offered the Japan's Maritime Self-Defense Force (JMSDF) Kawasaki P-1 Maritime Patrol Aircraft (MPA).

Initial talks reportedly took place during the Farnborough Airshow in July last year. The United States have also been pitching the Boeing P-8 Poseidon and the Lockheed Martin SC-130J Sea Hercules MPAs.
http://www.navyrecognition.com/index.ph ... craft.html

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Re: Future UK Maritime Patrol Options

Post by Little J »

jonas wrote: As far as a probe and drogue system on P8, I very much doubt whether any work has been done on that score, if they are only just testing the boom system on it.
In any case why would they, the US isn't going to use it , so if that is wanted by the UK then we are going to have to stump up the cash, and that is going to cost (a lot).
Both India and Australia's MRTT were bought with the capability to operate both the boom and probe and drogue systems. Whereas the UK MOD in it's wisdome decided we only need probe and drogue. Another case of the bean counters winning over the requirements needed.
So the next question is, what costs more - fitting P-8 with a probe (possibly same as E-3) or retro fitting Voyagers with booms.

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Re: Future UK Maritime Patrol Options

Post by -Eddie- »

Little J wrote:So the next question is, what costs more - fitting P-8 with a probe (possibly same as E-3) or retro fitting Voyagers with booms.
Buying the P-8s costs more. With the treasury it is a good idea to say 'Yep, 12 of those is all we need. Just sign here.. and here. OK bye.' Then when all the airframes have been delivered and training put in place bring the issues up..

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Re: Future UK Maritime Patrol Options

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shark bait wrote:
Little J wrote:
You don't think a twin aisle a/c a bit over sized for the job?

P-8 is really the only way to go, and (as already suggested) AAS pod's for Sentinel replacement, E-7's to replace the E-3's (if its worth replacing them yet), but I'd also get C-40 Clippers to replace the BAe 146's when the time (and money ;) ) comes.
I do yes, its just the commonality would make me very happy. On the up side massive range and lots of room for sonobuoys.

I don't think the p8 is the only way to go, that's what should put the MOD in a good position, there are loads of options on the market.
Personally I quite like the c295, low cost , multirole and perfect for defending our waters. However if we want to go beyond that, tracking in the north sea, protecting carriers, we will need something bigger. C295 could also replace your bae 146.

Perhaps a high low mix where we have a big fleet of our own c295, then a small number of P8 managed in the same way project airseeker is. Could help us keep things cheap but ruins my commonality mantra !
Plenty of sonar bouys? I'm reliably informed that it will be a P8 purchase on the same lines as the initial C17's.

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Re: Future UK Maritime Patrol Options

Post by shark bait »

Tinman wrote:
Plenty of sonar bouys? I'm reliably informed that it will be a P8 purchase on the same lines as the initial C17's.
So we're leasing?
Its a model that seems to have worked rather well with the C17, its certainly low risk.
What's your source if you don't mind me asking ?
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Re: Future UK Maritime Patrol Options

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http://www.thinkdefence.co.uk/2015/05/r ... f-gunship/

Corroborating the reasons I like the C295. Possible MPA, ISTAR, VIP, tactical transport, air drop, gun ship, SAR and command and control all from a cheap aircraft. This isn't even pushing the boat out much either, they are all current role's. A very useful little aircraft.
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Re: Future UK Maritime Patrol Options

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xav wrote:You guys don't believe in the Kawasaki P-1 despite the recent rumors ?
I would believe that the UK would give it a look. But so far I think it will be a real challenge for the P-1 to compete on lifecycle costs in another country, which will be a big part of the equation when the UK is making decisions. P-1's engines and avionics are great for getting more work to Japan's industry, not so great when you're looking at the cost of keeping a fleet in service for 20+ years when compared to the Boeing.

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Re: Future UK Maritime Patrol Options

Post by jonas »

Halidon wrote:
xav wrote:You guys don't believe in the Kawasaki P-1 despite the recent rumors ?
I would believe that the UK would give it a look. But so far I think it will be a real challenge for the P-1 to compete on lifecycle costs in another country, which will be a big part of the equation when the UK is making decisions. P-1's engines and avionics are great for getting more work to Japan's industry, not so great when you're looking at the cost of keeping a fleet in service for 20+ years when compared to the Boeing.
We will go with th P8 of that I have no doubt. We know quite serious talks have already taken place, as I have said before. The US is keen to sell us the P8 which means we will get a timely delivery of aircraft off the line. Then together with liogistics/maintenance etc we would not get a better deal anywhere else.Along with seedcorn personel already familiar with the operating procedure, and ready to return and train future aircrew for the aircraft, I see no logical alternative.
We could integrate smoothly working with the US, who will remain our closest ally unless something traumatic ever happens. I can see no chance of P-1 ever being in UK service. Didn't I also read somewhere, that they had been problems some time ago with cracks appearing in the airframe.

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