Future UK Maritime Patrol Options

Contains threads on Joint Service equipment of the past, present and future.
downsizer
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Re: Future UK Maritime Patrol Options

Post by downsizer »

Ron5 wrote:
downsizer wrote:I don't give a shit where it comes from, I want the best kit to do my job.

U.K. Armed Forces don't exist to provide jobs to British industry, we exist to win wars.
That's bull. Go read about the last UK only war, the Falklands, and see what the British industrial base did to support the military. A smart military will care about maintaining an appropriate native industrial base otherwise it will soon become dependent on others for very basic stuff. And subject to military courses of action being dictated by foreign suppliers.

I stand by my statement fella, and I'd wager the vast majority of serving pers would too. I doesn't matter a jot who makes the kit when the rounds or whatever are coming in, I want the best piece of kit. If that's made in the UK great, if it's not I don't care.

In an ideal world, sure, we'd manufacture everything we need, but that isn't going to happen. So in the meantime lets stop handicapping ourselves with inferior shit we (and by that I mean operators) don't want to prop of a handful of jobs in marginal government constituencies....Merlin, Wildcat, A400....

downsizer
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Re: Future UK Maritime Patrol Options

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shark bait wrote:
downsizer wrote:No shit. I did not know that.

Thats why we keep getting lumbered with crap we don't want or need. :roll:
Like typhoon, queen Elizabeth, brimstone ect ?
1 of those isn't in service so no-one can comment.

I've worked with the other 2, and only 1 can be quantified a certifiable success at this stage. Typhoon has numerous problems, largely based around lack of investment, but it isn't the wonder jet some like to think either.

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shark bait
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Re: Future UK Maritime Patrol Options

Post by shark bait »

jonas wrote: No these industries are not very strong, yes we are building warships reliant on the UK government orders. Yes we are building nuclear subs, but still with the help of the US. No we could not produce a 5th generation aircraft on our own, not without massive investment by the government, which we will not get.
Only the 6th biggest defence exporter
Only the second biggest aerospace industry
@LandSharkUK

marktigger
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Re: Future UK Maritime Patrol Options

Post by marktigger »

Tony Williams wrote:
marktigger wrote: yes and close our production lines down and make our defence industry workers redundant? by making our own we also continue R&D more jobs and we spend our tax money within the country we aren't adding more to the import/export deficit. we could also export to other countries bringing in money to the country.....Need I go on!
What production lines? We don't make any of the MPA candidates here, or (currently) the systems which would need to go in them. We would have to set up new production facilities to do either.

In my view there are only three cases in which setting up factories to make our own weapon systems, instead of buying from abroad, makes sense:

1. There is nothing suitable, or anywhere near as good, available from elsewhere.

2. It is vital to national security to keep design and construction in house (the Trident subs being the most obvious example).

3. There is a healthy export market in prospect which will keep production running for the foreseeable future.

Otherwise we just find ourselves establishing factories to make a limited run of items at a high price, before closing them down again.
what about where we actually manufacture stuff and export it but the great idea is junk it and buy foreign because its more convenient? DO WE maintain the factory and Jobs or do we EXPORT the JOBS and export opportnities and allow our competitor to laugh all the way to the Bank? We still manufacture and export Stingray so because the MK50 is the convenient system on the P8 we sacrifice the workers in MUSL in Cheshire and Hampshire? We've exported the manufacture of the plane and most of the systems to the US so lets put more UK workers out of Jobs!

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Gabriele
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Re: Future UK Maritime Patrol Options

Post by Gabriele »

We still manufacture and export Stingray so because the MK50 is the convenient system on the P8 we sacrifice the workers in MUSL in Cheshire and Hampshire? We've exported the manufacture of the plane and most of the systems to the US so lets put more UK workers out of Jobs!
Then integrate the frigging Stingray. It is not like there is a single option that comes Stingray-ready anyway. Some are MU-90 ready, some are MK-54 ready, none is Stingray ready. Whatever was chosen, even if it wasn't P-8, this problem is on the list. Put the money in, and it can be done.
Why no one builds Stingray-ready, by the way? Because Norway is the only export customer ever for it.

The matter of national industry capability really is something that a serious SDSR should address. Is this or that capability really strategic? Invest on it.
Isn't it? Put the money elsewhere.
Can this industry be sustained because it generates exports or has actual chances to do so, so that its existence isn't just depending on the MOD? Invest.
Is it alive only because the MOD is the only customer in the universe willing to pay the unreasonable costs? Divest and put the money elsewhere, or find a way to turn it around, or you are just prolonging an agony. In the end, it'll become unsustainable anyway.
You might also know me as Liger30, from that great forum than MP.net was.

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jonas
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Re: Future UK Maritime Patrol Options

Post by jonas »

shark bait wrote:
jonas wrote: No these industries are not very strong, yes we are building warships reliant on the UK government orders. Yes we are building nuclear subs, but still with the help of the US. No we could not produce a 5th generation aircraft on our own, not without massive investment by the government, which we will not get.
Only the 6th biggest defence exporter
Only the second biggest aerospace industry
Only no fifth generation aircraft building capability.

France,Germany,Italy and even Spain build and export warships far more successfully than does the UK. What was our last effort at this, the T12, since then zilch.
Last indigenous design and built aircraft BAE Hawk since then, zilch.
Likewise for heavy armour, Challenger then zilch.

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ArmChairCivvy
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Re: Future UK Maritime Patrol Options

Post by ArmChairCivvy »

Though what has happened (been done to) the UK AFV industry makes me shed tears into my beers, there is a lot that does not catch the eye of the casual observer:
"
The global defence export market in 2014 is estimated to be valued at more than
£50Bn ($83Bn).
In an increasingly competitive global export market, the UK’s defence export total
of £8.5Bn in 2014 is a considerable achievement, particularly coming off the
back of major platform exports in 2013.
"
And before anyone pipes in that 2014 was random (2015 stats not available, obviously), UK's share on a rolling 10-yr average basis was 19%.

Who has heard of these deals?
Selected major global defence export deals in 2014 included:
- Canada’s GDLS
wining a $10Bn contract with Saudi Arabia (armoured vehicles);
- Sweden’s Saab
winning a $5Bn contract with Brazil (Gripen aircraft);
- France winning a $3Bn deal
with the Lebanon (various military equipment);
- USA’s Boeing
winning a $2.4Bn contract with Qatar for AH-64 Apache helicopters.

Myopic view of?
- AJAX (spread out in time) being a big deal?
- stretching out both the Tiffie T3 and F-35 deliveries (further out than the eye can see) being a big deal? Not the stretching out, but the visible part.
- importance of Gvmnt-to-Gvmnt deals (do we do any, these days?). Luckily the MoD was substituted for the "abject failure" Ministry in this respect, going forward
- last, but not least, let's wait for the UK Apache deal's worth to come out (for comparison)
Ever-lasting truths: Multi-year budgets/ planning by necessity have to address the painful questions; more often than not the Either-Or prevails over Both-And.
If everyone is thinking the same, then someone is not thinking (attributed to Patton)

jonas
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Re: Future UK Maritime Patrol Options

Post by jonas »

ArmChairCivvy wrote:- France winning a $3Bn deal
with the Lebanon (various military equipment);
Which was completely funded by Saudi Arabia.

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ArmChairCivvy
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Re: Future UK Maritime Patrol Options

Post by ArmChairCivvy »

Client-Principal analysis in international relations is a useful tool - defence deals are often just manifestations of sucj
Ever-lasting truths: Multi-year budgets/ planning by necessity have to address the painful questions; more often than not the Either-Or prevails over Both-And.
If everyone is thinking the same, then someone is not thinking (attributed to Patton)

jonas
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Re: Future UK Maritime Patrol Options

Post by jonas »

jonas wrote:This was one of the more interesting written questions asked in Parliament yesterday 2nd Nov. I very much look forward to the reply.

"Asked by Douglas Chapman
(Dunfermline and West Fife)
Asked on: 02 November 2015
Ministry of Defence
14355
To ask the Secretary of State for Defence, how many service personnel who took part in the Seedcorn Initiative from 2011 to 2015 and are still currently serving were based on 1 November 2015 in (a) the UK, (b) the US and (c) elsewhere.
Further to the above here is the answer given. So in regards to the article in the 'Times' if there is any truth in it, then I would venture it is a surprise to everyone concerned, particularly seedcorn personel.

Asked by Douglas Chapman
(Dunfermline and West Fife)
Asked on: 02 November 2015
Ministry of Defence
Air Force: Training
14355
To ask the Secretary of State for Defence, how many service personnel who took part in the Seedcorn Initiative from 2011 to 2015 and are still currently serving were based on 1 November 2015 in (a) the UK, (b) the US and (c) elsewhere.
A
Answered by: Penny Mordaunt
Answered on: 09 November 2015


Thirty Six Service personnel have taken part in the Seedcorn Initiative, and they are all still serving. The table below shows their locations on 1 November 2015.

United Kingdom


4

United States


22

New Zealand


4

Australia


2

Canada


3

Iraq


1

marktigger
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Re: Future UK Maritime Patrol Options

Post by marktigger »

funny GKN sankey used to have licence to build piranah but UK govt wouldn't buy
westland had licence to build blackhawk built 2

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Re: Future UK Maritime Patrol Options

Post by Lugzy »

It seems Lockheed Martin are still pushing hard the sea hurc concept to the uk , but it beggars belief tbh why the hell didn't they just build a few examples , I'm sure LM could of got there hands on a few c-130s to use in the project ,
the fact they didn't bother just says to me there are still hurdles to overcome in making this aircraft fit for purpose , and they don't want to invest their own cash which show lack of confidence in their own product in my opinion.

http://www.defensenews.com/story/defens ... /75460480/

On the topic of seedcorn , wasn't the program extended for another 3 years a few month ago ? , if so could this show a possible delay in any "new assets" being brought in , or would this fit the UKs timeframe ???

jonas
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Re: Future UK Maritime Patrol Options

Post by jonas »

Lugzy wrote:It seems Lockheed Martin are still pushing hard the sea hurc concept to the uk , but it beggars belief tbh why the hell didn't they just build a few examples , I'm sure LM could of got there hands on a few c-130s to use in the project ,
the fact they didn't bother just says to me there are still hurdles to overcome in making this aircraft fit for purpose , and they don't want to invest their own cash which show lack of confidence in their own product in my opinion.

http://www.defensenews.com/story/defens ... /75460480/

On the topic of seedcorn , wasn't the program extended for another 3 years a few month ago ? , if so could this show a possible delay in any "new assets" being brought in , or would this fit the UKs timeframe ???
Yes you are quite right on the 'SeedCorn' project, and I have to admit I missed that one. Makes you wonder doesn't it.

https://www.flightglobal.com/news/artic ... ee-414774/

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Re: Future UK Maritime Patrol Options

Post by downsizer »

No need to read too much into the extension. It happened to ensure we maintained the people should the decision to regenerate MPA was positive. If its a green light they won't be in those posts for three years, they'll be wherever the UK fleet is. Equally if we don't MPA, they'll find themselves back in the UK pronto!

jonas
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Re: Future UK Maritime Patrol Options

Post by jonas »

downsizer wrote:No need to read too much into the extension. It happened to ensure we maintained the people should the decision to regenerate MPA was positive. If its a green light they won't be in those posts for three years, they'll be wherever the UK fleet is. Equally if we don't MPA, they'll find themselves back in the UK pronto!
Yes that is why I was interested in the state of seedcorn personel, numbers and whereabouts as of 1st Nov, as a Parliamentary question.

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Re: Future UK Maritime Patrol Options

Post by Lugzy »

jonas wrote:
downsizer wrote:No need to read too much into the extension. It happened to ensure we maintained the people should the decision to regenerate MPA was positive. If its a green light they won't be in those posts for three years, they'll be wherever the UK fleet is. Equally if we don't MPA, they'll find themselves back in the UK pronto!
Yes that is why I was interested in the state of seedcorn personel, numbers and whereabouts as of 1st Nov, as a Parliamentary question.


Interesting , that by extending the seedcorn program for a further 3 years it would put it's new current conclusion timeframe around the time of the planned tranche1 typhoons / tornado / sentinel retirement ,

could it be possible that the Gov was never going to add mpa with out loses somewhere else , did they bank on released manpower from the cuts/retirement of assets to man it's mpa plans , and if there is a delay in us bringing in new aircraft to fill our mpa gap it's because of the reprieve given to the sentinel / tornado squadrons, ???

My thinking is , seedcorn personnel would be the core of our new mpa capability but a lot more than 36 personnel would be needed to run operations and crew these assets, I doubt the government financing additional recruitment , so the manpower would have to come from somewhere.

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Re: Future UK Maritime Patrol Options

Post by Tony Williams »

Lugzy wrote: could it be possible that the Gov was never going to add mpa with out loses somewhere else , did they bank on released manpower from the cuts/retirement of assets to man it's mpa plans , and if there is a delay in us bringing in new aircraft to fill our mpa gap it's because of the reprieve given to the sentinel / tornado squadrons, ???
I would be amazed and impressed if any government proved capable of thinking that far ahead.

jonas
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Re: Future UK Maritime Patrol Options

Post by jonas »

Tony Williams wrote:
Lugzy wrote: could it be possible that the Gov was never going to add mpa with out loses somewhere else , did they bank on released manpower from the cuts/retirement of assets to man it's mpa plans , and if there is a delay in us bringing in new aircraft to fill our mpa gap it's because of the reprieve given to the sentinel / tornado squadrons, ???
I would be amazed and impressed if any government proved capable of thinking that far ahead.
I'm wondering that if because of expenses elsewhere, they are pushing the MPA buy to the right with the excuse now that they need to have an open competition. If this is the case it is quite frankly bloody disgusting, given the time they have been studying the P8, and other contenders. Not to mention that they set up a project only months after scrapping MRA4, to look into what they needed as a replacement, after realising what a monumental cock up they had made.

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Re: Future UK Maritime Patrol Options

Post by bobp »

Yes 2010 is/was a monumental cock up. And if things continue as they are so will 2015.

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Re: Future UK Maritime Patrol Options

Post by marktigger »

bobp wrote:Yes 2010 is/was a monumental cock up. And if things continue as they are so will 2015.
The monumental cock up began long before 2010 a poorly thought through and planned project with a contract that was ridiculous from an organisation that couldn't make its mind up it was a recipe for disaster.

All SDSR 2010 did was put the project out of its misery.

I think we would still be waiting for systems integration and delivery today had we continued with MRA4.

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Re: Future UK Maritime Patrol Options

Post by marktigger »

has the increased numbers of aircrew going through things like the FAA course continued?
Maybe the project is slipping slightly to the right due to sorting the procurement properly and getting the right level of support for it. Add in the lead in times for getting aircraft and basic infrastructre in place a further 36 months isn't unreasonable I wouldn't expect to see UK MPA fleet up and running till at least 2020 with integration of the full aircrew starting slightly before that date.

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Re: Future UK Maritime Patrol Options

Post by downsizer »

It can be done much sooner than 2020.

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Re: Future UK Maritime Patrol Options

Post by Gabriele »

downsizer wrote:It can be done much sooner than 2020.
Provided that they buy the P-8 and do it quickly...
You might also know me as Liger30, from that great forum than MP.net was.

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Re: Future UK Maritime Patrol Options

Post by Tinman »

downsizer wrote:It can be done much sooner than 2020.
Re-badged USN or they give up slots on the production line, Seedcorn crews come home Stand up an OCU Late 2016 early 2017?

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Re: Future UK Maritime Patrol Options

Post by Lugzy »

Tinman wrote:
downsizer wrote:It can be done much sooner than 2020.
Re-badged USN or they give up slots on the production line, Seedcorn crews come home Stand up an OCU Late 2016 early 2017?

Looks like the USN would be willing to give up a few slots if the uk purchased the P-8 . It's also been reported that an offer of a coordinated buy with the USN was on the table .
http://www.wsj.com/articles/boeing-bags ... 1447054496

But saying that I'd be surprised to see us regaining maritime patrol capability before 2019 tbh , i do believe a deal was probably on the table for us to purchase MPA earlier, but I think a part of that deal was which assets were going to be axed to make room for it , and again I'm guessing but I think it would of been the retirement of tornado and sentinel which was both due this year ,

With no end in sight to the unforeseen air campaign agaisnt Isis , and the continued extended operations in Afghanistan , both the tornado squadrons and sentinel have had a reprieve till around 2019 , so I think the deal as been put on ice , and seedcorn as been extended for another 3 years in reaction to this decision.

yes the 30-36 personnel asigned to the seedcorn program would be the core of our future maritime patrol effort but a lot more manpower would be needed to reach operational status .

I'd expect an anoucment to be made as part of the SDSR regarding MPA but it will not be the original planned news of a imminent purchase of aircraft , the government will use the well reported call for fair competition from areospace companies to invite pitches , which will show there intention to fill the MPA gap publicly but will in reality stall the process for a number of years which will suit them nicely , this way they will save a lot of red faces and side step some arkward questions ,considering the MPA question was reported to be one of the major announcements of the SDSR .

Now all this is speculation and I do have hope , and my fingers are crossed that enough pressure from the armed forces , the press ,the public , and our allies plus the chance of embarrassment and red faces will make the gov open their wallet and proceed as planned , we will know in just over a week .

Locked