UK Complex Weapons Thread

For everything else UK defence-related that doesn't fit into any of the sections above.
RetroSicotte
Retired Site Admin
Posts: 2657
Joined: 30 Apr 2015, 18:10
United Kingdom

Re: UK Complex Weapons Thread

Post by RetroSicotte »

And a primary, crucial capability is now lost.

Beyond embarrasing. The options are literally right there.

Do note, this basically confirms that the Type 26 will have no ASMs either until 10 years after it enters service.

Let that fact sink in for a moment, hopefully before the ships with no means to defend themselves do.

bobp
Senior Member
Posts: 2684
Joined: 06 May 2015, 07:52
United Kingdom

Re: UK Complex Weapons Thread

Post by bobp »

And therefore what is the point of building a warship with no weapons/ammunition.

dmereifield
Senior Member
Posts: 2762
Joined: 03 Aug 2016, 20:29
United Kingdom

Re: UK Complex Weapons Thread

Post by dmereifield »

So no antiship missiles on any RN vessels and none on fixed wing aircraft either? Leaving only light weight missiles, incapable of knocking out anything lager than a corvette, on the choppers....is that right?
Could it be that the MoD are doing this to try to squeeze the Treasury to loosen the purse strings a little?
God I hope Hammond's Autumn statement brings some positive news....

RetroSicotte
Retired Site Admin
Posts: 2657
Joined: 30 Apr 2015, 18:10
United Kingdom

Re: UK Complex Weapons Thread

Post by RetroSicotte »

All the more I look at NSM and LRASM being demoed with canisters and want to just keep making facial expressions and motions of vicious pointing to them while staring intently at any government owned building.

dmereifield
Senior Member
Posts: 2762
Joined: 03 Aug 2016, 20:29
United Kingdom

Re: UK Complex Weapons Thread

Post by dmereifield »

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2016/11 ... with-guns/

So according to these unnamed sources, there are no plans, currently, for a Harpoon replacement....

User avatar
ArmChairCivvy
Senior Member
Posts: 16312
Joined: 05 May 2015, 21:34
United Kingdom

Re: UK Complex Weapons Thread

Post by ArmChairCivvy »

From the above link "“The moment you put it up against a frigate or a destroyer, you will be inside their weapons range,” the source added."

But SeaVenom is still useful against corvettes/ FACs (not just because of the explosive effects/ size of warhead, but) because the AA missiles they carry tend to be modified from A2A and hence are very light - even after adding the booster - and hence shorter ranged than the SeaVenom.
Ever-lasting truths: Multi-year budgets/ planning by necessity have to address the painful questions; more often than not the Either-Or prevails over Both-And.
If everyone is thinking the same, then someone is not thinking (attributed to Patton)

User avatar
AndyC
Member
Posts: 169
Joined: 11 Dec 2015, 10:37
United Kingdom

Re: UK Complex Weapons Thread

Post by AndyC »

If you read the actual words stated by the MoD spokesperson they said:
1. Harpoon 1 is to go out of service at the end of 2018 (no new news there) and
2. there is no contractually agreed replacement (again no new news).

What I'd suggest is going on is that Poseidon will enter service in 2019 with either Harpoon II (with a later upgrade) or Harpoon II + ER (if it's ready in time) or Kongsberg's JSM (if Australia are willing to pay for integration) but this hasn't been confirmed yet.

Whichever option they go for with the Poseidon will then be the choice for the Royal Navy's destroyers and frigates.

I'd bet on an order sometime in the first half of 2017 as there is certainly plenty of money unallocated in the Complex Weapons budget.

User avatar
ArmChairCivvy
Senior Member
Posts: 16312
Joined: 05 May 2015, 21:34
United Kingdom

Re: UK Complex Weapons Thread

Post by ArmChairCivvy »

AndyC wrote:Whichever option they go for with the Poseidon will then be the choice for the Royal Navy's destroyers and frigates.

I'd bet on an order sometime in the first half of 2017 as there is certainly plenty of money unallocated in the Complex Weapons budget.
Exactly, tahnks for putting a timeline against it (what? No holidays?)
Ever-lasting truths: Multi-year budgets/ planning by necessity have to address the painful questions; more often than not the Either-Or prevails over Both-And.
If everyone is thinking the same, then someone is not thinking (attributed to Patton)

downsizer
Member
Posts: 893
Joined: 02 May 2015, 08:03

Re: UK Complex Weapons Thread

Post by downsizer »

What everyone seems to forget is, in these days of delegated budgets, the Navy could have replaced this but chose not to. Nobody forced them into this decision, they made it! :shock:

User avatar
ArmChairCivvy
Senior Member
Posts: 16312
Joined: 05 May 2015, 21:34
United Kingdom

Re: UK Complex Weapons Thread

Post by ArmChairCivvy »

Well, we might get some joined-up thinking (and proc), as it saves pennies... and more.

Wasnt the RN put in the driving seat after the Nimrod fiasco, and P-8s may be flown by the RAF... but finally we are talking about capability/ capabilities (not features, as in weapons in the shop window; and the kid soon runs out of money, bcz they all look so good)?
Ever-lasting truths: Multi-year budgets/ planning by necessity have to address the painful questions; more often than not the Either-Or prevails over Both-And.
If everyone is thinking the same, then someone is not thinking (attributed to Patton)

jimthelad
Member
Posts: 507
Joined: 14 May 2015, 20:16
United Kingdom

Re: UK Complex Weapons Thread

Post by jimthelad »

The unnamed source was an aide to the 1SL. He is I believe now considering new career options. A more cynical view might be that the RN wanted to UOR LRASM in 2018 without competition but the meeting of Sir M Fallon and his oppo might have involved more than cooperation on training and ASW ops. Cue annoyed RN.

User avatar
ArmChairCivvy
Senior Member
Posts: 16312
Joined: 05 May 2015, 21:34
United Kingdom

Re: UK Complex Weapons Thread

Post by ArmChairCivvy »

jimthelad wrote:to UOR LRASM in 2018 without competition but the meeting of Sir M Fallon and his oppo
When you bring up a UOR then you will need to be precise about the "O" in it.
- there is no shortage of opportunities fr such a definition... but in this case, may not have gonewell?
Ever-lasting truths: Multi-year budgets/ planning by necessity have to address the painful questions; more often than not the Either-Or prevails over Both-And.
If everyone is thinking the same, then someone is not thinking (attributed to Patton)

LordJim
Member
Posts: 454
Joined: 28 Apr 2016, 00:39
United Kingdom

Re: UK Complex Weapons Thread

Post by LordJim »

The current defence procurement strategy seems to be based on what the "Experts" think we can do without and then gambling they and the government do not get burned. The P-8 contract was more the result of a case minor burns due to the bad press for not being able to stop the Russian navy cruising in UK waters, than proper long term planning. Is it going to take the sinking of an RN ship for it to be realised we need a new ASM? At this rate we will end up using Royal Marines in RHIBs with Javelin as the RNs offensive capability!

User avatar
ArmChairCivvy
Senior Member
Posts: 16312
Joined: 05 May 2015, 21:34
United Kingdom

Re: UK Complex Weapons Thread

Post by ArmChairCivvy »

There is a lot of that, yes.

The Complex weapons thing (programme/ enterprise?) seems to be one of the better managed procurements, involving R&D based on well developed requirement.s

Dont know if it counts as single sourcing (many companies involved, but projects not competed). However, 50% of defence proc is single sourced (the head of the Agency set up o oversee competition and awarding contracts just recently resigned; I wonder why).
Ever-lasting truths: Multi-year budgets/ planning by necessity have to address the painful questions; more often than not the Either-Or prevails over Both-And.
If everyone is thinking the same, then someone is not thinking (attributed to Patton)

RetroSicotte
Retired Site Admin
Posts: 2657
Joined: 30 Apr 2015, 18:10
United Kingdom

Re: UK Complex Weapons Thread

Post by RetroSicotte »

LordJim wrote:The current defence procurement strategy seems to be based on what the "Experts" think we can do without and then gambling they and the government do not get burned. The P-8 contract was more the result of a case minor burns due to the bad press for not being able to stop the Russian navy cruising in UK waters, than proper long term planning. Is it going to take the sinking of an RN ship for it to be realised we need a new ASM? At this rate we will end up using Royal Marines in RHIBs with Javelin as the RNs offensive capability!
Not too far off, but I'd argue perhaps it's less "what we can do without" and more "what we can remove and still claim we have".

In this case, expect them to make a big press release of "Now now everyone it's okay we have invested millions into the latest Sea Venom anti-ship missile for deployment on all Royal navy vessels due into service shortly after Harpoons retirement, we are investing heavily into defence and have the 5th largest defence budget in the world."

It'll happen. It always does.

Checkbox military. So long as you can say the words, it'll stay that way.

User avatar
ArmChairCivvy
Senior Member
Posts: 16312
Joined: 05 May 2015, 21:34
United Kingdom

Re: UK Complex Weapons Thread

Post by ArmChairCivvy »

RetroSicotte wrote:I'd argue perhaps it's less "what we can do without" and more "what we can remove and still claim we have".
You guys are in good form today; may be we should start a thread for evergreen quotes (about UK defence and the management of it)?
Ever-lasting truths: Multi-year budgets/ planning by necessity have to address the painful questions; more often than not the Either-Or prevails over Both-And.
If everyone is thinking the same, then someone is not thinking (attributed to Patton)

RetroSicotte
Retired Site Admin
Posts: 2657
Joined: 30 Apr 2015, 18:10
United Kingdom

Re: UK Complex Weapons Thread

Post by RetroSicotte »

I'm legitimately unsure if that's intended as written or a very subtle jab in the side. :p

dmereifield
Senior Member
Posts: 2762
Joined: 03 Aug 2016, 20:29
United Kingdom

Re: UK Complex Weapons Thread

Post by dmereifield »

https://www.ft.com/content/bb65b6de-aa5 ... f98a0cf216

Signing further agreements today to solidify the partnership with France through MBDA. Is there an outside possibility we might end up with an exocet for harpoon replacement?

Also, any truth in the section below, or is it old news rehashed?

"France and the UK have pledged to award MBDA a joint contract to work on a family of new generation deep strike missiles by March next year. France is also considering a UK missile called Brimstone for its Airbus Tiger attack helicopters, and the UK is considering buying a new version of the French-built Aster missiles for its Type 45 destroyers"

RetroSicotte
Retired Site Admin
Posts: 2657
Joined: 30 Apr 2015, 18:10
United Kingdom

Re: UK Complex Weapons Thread

Post by RetroSicotte »

If anything replaces harpoon I before the far future one, it'll be Harpoon II, otherwise they'll have to do hundreds of millions on integration costs.

dmereifield
Senior Member
Posts: 2762
Joined: 03 Aug 2016, 20:29
United Kingdom

Re: UK Complex Weapons Thread

Post by dmereifield »

Thanks RS, I had assumed as much. It's the "if anything replaces harpoon I..." bit that scares me...surely such a loss of capability, which was well covered by a number of papers and media outlets in the last few days, would be too visible to the public to allow it to happen.....hopefully

More on the French missile collaborations - whcih includes creating centres of excellence in Stevenage and Bolton. No new announcement of funding, projects or infrastructure so presumably they are throwing a couple of plaques on the walls and calling them centres of excellence...

https://www.gov.uk/government/news/defe ... ooperation

Frenchie
Member
Posts: 619
Joined: 07 Nov 2016, 15:01
France

Re: UK Complex Weapons Thread

Post by Frenchie »

France and the United Kingdom intend to develop jointly several new missiles for replace the SCALP/Storm Shadow cruise missiles and anti-ship missiles Exocet and Harpoon. It is question of sharing the work by reorganizing the French and British subsidiaries of the European missile manufacturer MBDA in order to eliminate duplication, reduce missile developments and optimize investments, this approach would reduce costs by about 30%.

dmereifield
Senior Member
Posts: 2762
Joined: 03 Aug 2016, 20:29
United Kingdom

Re: UK Complex Weapons Thread

Post by dmereifield »

Frenchie wrote:France and the United Kingdom intend to develop jointly several new missiles for replace the SCALP/Storm Shadow cruise missiles and anti-ship missiles Exocet and Harpoon. It is question of sharing the work by reorganizing the French and British subsidiaries of the European missile manufacturer MBDA in order to eliminate duplication, reduce missile developments and optimize investments, this approach would reduce costs by about 30%.
Thanks for the info

jimthelad
Member
Posts: 507
Joined: 14 May 2015, 20:16
United Kingdom

Re: UK Complex Weapons Thread

Post by jimthelad »

In the end i think it will be a reworked osd and the canister variant of lrasm due to the common launch infrastructure.

User avatar
AndyC
Member
Posts: 169
Joined: 11 Dec 2015, 10:37
United Kingdom

Re: UK Complex Weapons Thread

Post by AndyC »

The problem with the replacement of Harpoon 1C missiles reflects the politics of the situation rather than the lack of money and I think is far too typical of why things just don't get done.

The Navy wants LRASM - I remember reading that in a speech delivered by the previous First Sea Lord about 18 months ago.

The RAF persuaded the MoD to buy Poseidon on the basis that costs would be kept to a minimum by buying it "off the shelf". Now it should be more cost effective to integrate Sting Ray torpedoes rather than buying and maintaining a separate stock of Mk 54 torpedoes but that doesn't apply to the aircraft's anti-shipping missiles, so logically that means buying Harpoon II.

The MoD itself has four reasons for not wanting LRASM:

1. the complex weapons industrial strategy/partnership is a rare example of something going right. Missiles are developed broadly on time and broadly within budget and are at the cutting edge globally. Buying LRASM might well undermine SPEAR 5 (the Future Cruise and Anti-Ship Weapon) as they are very much direct competitors;

2. the FCASW is also a joint development with France only agreed in 2015. In a post-Brexit/Trump world do we really want to annoy the French?;

3. even if the Royal Navy were allowed to buy LRASM the RAF is most likely to have Harpoon II which means two stocks of relatively small numbers of missiles to maintain at additional cost and;

4. even if LRASM were bought for the Type 26 what about the remaining Type 23? The last will be in service right up to 2035 and don't have the space for strike length VLS launchers so could potentially be carrying around empty Harpoon missile launchers for seventeen years!

So, now we've got the Navy leaking and embarrassing the Government. To my mind that probably means they're losing the argument for LRASM and the MoD is glacially moving to a decision to buy Harpoon II.

To read more go to my article "Naval Command to 2030".

jimthelad
Member
Posts: 507
Joined: 14 May 2015, 20:16
United Kingdom

Re: UK Complex Weapons Thread

Post by jimthelad »

Does anyone actually what the life expire date is for the Block 1c Harpooon is. They did get a LEP sometime in the last decade with rounds going to Boeing. Could we put the OSD back 2-3 years and then dovetail a LRASM order due to the commonality of the launcher footprint, consoles, and wiring?

Post Reply