Section Infantry Weapons

[marktigger]

yes but with SA80 we didn't sacrifice barrel length to get a more compact weapon.

why not just return to 7.62mm x 51 it's a known, already in the logistics chain?

[ArmChairCivvy]

true, effective fire support pinning an enemy and denying him the freedom to properly react to what you are doing goes along way to achieving objectives and having the ability to do this from a distance where you have the advantage and you are restricting his ability to counter is always a bonus.

Made me think of the end summary of flechette rounds (the US ACR project):
"their high cross-sectional energy density and large length-to-diameter ratio make them very effective against all small arms targets. This, together with their flat trajectory and short time of flight, make them attractive for consideration in crew-served and area-fire applications."

[arfah]

...........

[GastonGlocker]

PBI combat weight through the ages.

https://www.gov.uk/government/uploads/s ... s_Load.pdf

Great read. The optimum weight seems to have been found years ago yet there also seems to be an increase these days (note the Milan crew overall load!).

[arfah]

...............

[ArmChairCivvy]

The BA's preferences keep shifting. They acquired the short-barrelled Minimi in Iraq as a short-range bullet-sprayer; close in, volume of fire matters. In the much longer ranges typical of Afghanistan, it was of little use and the L86A2 came back into favour as its long barrel squeezed the most out of the 5.56mm ammo. In addition, the GPMG was often carried at section level, and the L129A1 7.62mm Sharpshooter rifle was adopted.

No we're back in peacetime the focus has shifted back to 5.56mm at section level, but the L86 is no longer in favour because the ballistic advantage it offers over the L85A2 is relatively small, and the L85 is now fitted with a grip pod/bipod, with which it can be fired as accurately as the L86 - so what's the point of the L86? They are accordingly working towards seven L85A2 rifles in the section, plus one belt-fed MG (long-barrelled Minimi, IIRC). The 7.62mm weapons will be held back at a higher level, to be deployed as and when required.

Having the suppression weapon is appropriate, but fitting the other 7 with this



would lower ammo consumption so much that a breaching weapon or a commando mortar could easily be carried again?

[marktigger]

isn't that the role of the DMR rifle which the L86 was used for at times.

[Tinman]

The BA's preferences keep shifting. They acquired the short-barrelled Minimi in Iraq as a short-range bullet-sprayer; close in, volume of fire matters. In the much longer ranges typical of Afghanistan, it was of little use and the L86A2 came back into favour as its long barrel squeezed the most out of the 5.56mm ammo. In addition, the GPMG was often carried at section level, and the L129A1 7.62mm Sharpshooter rifle was adopted.

No we're back in peacetime the focus has shifted back to 5.56mm at section level, but the L86 is no longer in favour because the ballistic advantage it offers over the L85A2 is relatively small, and the L85 is now fitted with a grip pod/bipod, with which it can be fired as accurately as the L86 - so what's the point of the L86? They are accordingly working towards seven L85A2 rifles in the section, plus one belt-fed MG (long-barrelled Minimi, IIRC). The 7.62mm weapons will be held back at a higher level, to be deployed as and when required.

Having the suppression weapon is appropriate, but fitting the other 7 with this



would lower ammo consumption so much that a breaching weapon or a commando mortar could easily be carried again?

The rounds would be replaced with batteries,

[ArmChairCivvy]

5.56mm Minimi was bought as UOR for Iraq.

And in well over a decade it hasn't become part of the Core budget of the Army...? I struggle to believe that, a lot.

When the FT journalist (Mr. Gray) took over at DE&S, he was hinting at the Iraq UORs settlement between the army and the Treasury being imminent. So, there is reason to believe that it did happen, but of course we weren't told what the numbers were (net) and how they had been worked out.
- by that time the Gvmnt had realised what mess they had made of the 2010 SDSR and that was a "legitimate" way to insect some steroid-based substance into an otherwise dying patient

[ArmChairCivvy]

yes and of course the only op theatre that counts is Afghan?

Isn't it nice that little by little section weapons that can be rechambered and re-barrelled as per the needs of the terrain where ever a campaign then happens to be are being brought in, e.g. the Minimi?

[ArmChairCivvy]

There's also AEI Systems: http://aei-systems.com
and Accuracy International: http://www.accuracyinternational.com

and plenty of small bespoke gunmakers.
Not sure if any could tool up to equip the Army, although with the size of the army, would they have to?

I'd like to look at licensing or buying the Polish MSBS

Whereas I (going i.a. by my comment above) would look to do the same with the Beretta AR.

[ArmChairCivvy]

Tinman, a very good point.

However, would the sights draw on batteries in the same way that the already carried ones do:
- for comms, on for most of the time
- for night vision, varies, but must base the capacity on 5-8 hrs/ day

I don't know, but someone here surely does? Luckily we are not the only ones worrying about this. In the FIST context:

"ABSL Power Solutions Limited (formerly AEA Technology Battery Systems) produced a modified power system for the FIST V2 trials, which includes two lithium ion battery packs, each integrated in the SA80 rifle magazine pouch and connected to the power management unit (PMU). The PMU provides power for the GPS receiver, the situation awareness computer, thermal imaging and image intensification sights, and voice/data radios.

The UK MoD is funding the development of a handheld fuel cell for recharging conventional batteries by an industrial team including Black and Decker, Ineos Chlor, Intelligent Energy, and QinetiQ."
- the French FELIN V2 has gone in the same direction, but I presume bigger as that sort of unit is at section level

[marktigger]

yes and of course the only op theatre that counts is Afghan?

Isn't it nice that little by little section weapons that can be rechambered and re-barrelled as per the needs of the terrain where ever a campaign then happens to be are being brought in, e.g. the Minimi?

can't the full length Minimi Barrel be fitted to the Para versions I seam to remember reading something that the Canadians were doing this short barrel for patroling but the longer barrel when going firm. The Swedes took it one stage further doing the same with their GPMG

[ArmChairCivvy]

That little rucksack (from which the belt is fed) looks much better than a recent photo of the RM on arctic manoeuvres, the MG being fed from a sack with no form/ shape, and a poor guy having to stand(! or at least kneel) next to the gunner, to make sure that it feeds through, and the next one can be clipped on.
- I could think that there are at least two belt equivalents in that, already linked?

[LordJim]

A while back a US Army NCO developed an ammo carrying backpack for his 7.62 MAG with a semi rigid ammo feed. It carried over 400 rounds and I think the US Military is taking a serious look at it plus a version in 5.56 for their Minimi gunners

[ArmChairCivvy]

Yep, seen that, a one upper to this kind of primitive attempts:



However, this set is more versatile than what the ANG (no that's not Afghan but Army NG) guy did in his "spare time":

http://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/2014 ... -backpack/

[marktigger]

with the weapon in thats sort of configuration it would work at section level in place of one of the minimi giving a bit of weight to the firepower

[Tinman]

Then what happens to manoeuvre, close with?

Fast aggressive movement with weight of fire wins.

Not static.

[arfah]

.........l,,,

[marktigger]

Then what happens to manoeuvre, close with?

Fast aggressive movement with weight of fire wins.

Not static.

correct and 7.62 gives that weight of fire

[arfah]

...............

[marktigger]

i see the Americans are issuing the Carl Gustav M3 at platoon level.

http://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/2016 ... neral-use/

[ArmChairCivvy]

Good move, the above

""Carl Gustaf launchers, about one per platoon."

Ironman outfit (OK, the one I linked was for PK) for each section, a CG in each platoon, missiles held at company level (together with some Matador or similar)... there's the way to go!

Hold on, that wasn't our army (I just woke up).
- including the "funny" thing that we only have light mortars, because they by definition are man portable - and therefore not artillery!

[ArmChairCivvy]

Hit a target 16 km away with 2 m error, for £10k a shot; value for money?

""The new GPS guided munitions will enable the corps’ M327 rifled 120mm mortar units called ‘Expeditionary Fire Support Systems’ (EFSS) to double the range they can engage targets, and enable those units to hit their intended targets with maximum accuracy and efficiency. EFSS consists of two Internally Transportable-Light Strike Vehicles carrying a mortar tube and ammunition supply that can be moved as a single package in the belly of an MV-22B Osprey or slung under a CH-53E Super Stallion."
- ok, we don't have either of those birds, so take one at a time?

Not exactly a section weapon, but something that can be allocated to companies operating without artillery support? And thereby a continuation of the thought from my post above.

http://defense-update.com/20151210_perm.html

[marktigger]

7.62 gives a heavier weight of fire but not for as long as 5.56.

Same old never ending argument.

yeap it will continue until 5.56 is replaced then it'll be 7.62 vs it