Ocean Class Helicopter Carrier (LPH) (1998-2018) (ex RN)

[ArmChairCivvy]

Art. 3 Subordinate the “Atlantic” NAM to the Naval Operations Command.

So a flag ship for blue-water operations
- was she originally associated with the Marines, or what is the importance of the change?

[Brasil]

Art. 3 Subordinate the “Atlantic” NAM to the Naval Operations Command.

So a flag ship for blue-water operations
- was she originally associated with the Marines, or what is the importance of the change?

It's just protocol The ship always belonged to the navy.

[ArmChairCivvy]

The ship always belonged to the navy.

Are the Marines not part of the navy?

[Timmymagic]

however it shows what could be achieved on the QEC with its far larger deck area, with regards UAVs and possibly something like a BN Defender....

BN Defender wouldn't need arresting cables. They landed and took off from HMS Hermes in 1968, with the less powerful piston engines.

See page 20..

http://www.ivanberrymandirect.com/BNAPS ... r_2017.pdf

[Jensy]

Time for something like an OV-10 Bronco to make a come back?

There was talk of Boeing reopening the line for new build OV-10X Super Bronco at the height of the war on ISIS, don’t think it was ever really serious proposal, but an OV-10X wouldn’t need arresting wires as the US trialed OV-10 off the USS John F Kennedy in 68 using only the recovery line for take offs/landings, can’t see it having problems using the centre line off the QE’s in need be


I think it would be easier to use an existing aircraft which might not need arresting wires either a AT-6B Wolverine or A-29 Super Tucano

The Bronco was/is a fantastic bit of kit. However I think its niche has been largely overlapped by UAVs. No doubt a half dozen, armed with Martlet, would be deadly against hostile small missile craft in the Gulf or similiar. However you'd have to question how a carrier group had got itself into that situation in the first place, and why other platforms (Wildcat/ Apache) weren't suitable, with their similar speeds and greater ranges.

The Texan II and Super Tucano are both excellent but approaching jet levels of performance and as such have the constraints that go with them (landing distance/speed and weight), without the advantages that go with turbofan powered aircraft (range/efficiency), and would still require heavy arrestor gear.

First off, I've been thinking more along the lines of fixed-wing utility aircraft that could supplement the Merlins in their many roles but doesn't cost what a V-22 or other high-end options do.

There are a few aircraft that are almost able to meet the landing distances of the QEC deck but might need some basic arrestor gear:

- The ancient but rather amazing de Havilland Canada Caribou: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/De_Havill ... -4_Caribou

- Similar to the Caribou, the IAI Arava: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/IAI_Arava



- The Kiwi PAC 750XL is rather impressive for its size and a UK firm is developing a firefighting version: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/PAC_P-750_XSTOL



- Still may favourite, the BN Islander/Defender. Tough little planes, decent payload and straight wings (for perhaps folding) as raised by Timmy above, it's actually landed on HMS Hermes: https://britten-norman.com/products/defender/



- Based on the godfather of them all, the AN-2, the newer but unloved AN-3: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Antonov_An-3

Only the last three are still in production and not exactly in large numbers.

If the appetite was there to fit heavy arrestor gear at the carriers first refit there would be plentiful, far more capable, options both manned and unmanned:

- The Textron Scorpion has a very low stall speed and large wing area/lifting body plus a useful payload bay

- I've always been curious if you could launch a BAE/Boeing T-45 Goshawk off a ramp..?



- Possibly even some of the mini business jets, with short field performance such as the Pilatus PC-24: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pilatus_PC-24

- If it could make it off the ramp, the S-3 Viking (much like the Bronco) has had a few attempts at resurrection and I believe there are still a decent number in dry storage. Would offer a massive increase of the carriers' capabilities with long-range ASW and refuelling.

- Finally, this AW article from 2002 is interesting reading as it talks about Northrop Grumman offering a STOBAR variant of the E-2C Hawkeye, and even back then noting that the V-22 is far too expensive: https://www.flightglobal.com/stobar-con ... 01.article

Returning to the Atlântico, this upgrade appears to propose giving the ship the capability to extend its reach far beyond the range and endurance of its helicopters. It seems a shame not to do the same with our considerably larger, newer and more expensive carriers that are expected to serve into the 2060s at least.

however it shows what could be achieved on the QEC with its far larger deck area, with regards UAVs and possibly something like a BN Defender....

BN Defender wouldn't need arresting cables. They landed and took off from HMS Hermes in 1968, with the less powerful piston engines.

See page 20..

http://www.ivanberrymandirect.com/BNAPS ... r_2017.pdf

Thanks for sharing that article. Really fascinating. Had read on other forums that it could probably do it with a substantial headwind. Didn't realise it had actually been done at only 10 knots. I particularly like this bit:

The only problem was that taxying on deck was difficult, as ‘UB had the standard nose-wheel steering system with a large radius of turn. This was solved in the time-honoured way by 20 or so deck-handlers pushing on the wing leading edge, to roll the aircraft back for each take-off.

I'm sure we could find a solution now! Also rather pertinent at the time:

just think what use could have been made of the Islander during the Falklands War. It could have been used for the missing AEW role, and for COD and delivery of commandos ashore. It could have been kept on the flight-deck in the deck park except for
hangar maintenance, and so cheap to buy that it could have been pushed over the side if emergency deck-space was required).

Think a lot of that still rings true.

Apologies for the long reply. It's a topic that's been running through my head for a while!

[ArmChairCivvy]

The Bronco was/is a fantastic bit of kit. However I think its niche has been largely overlapped by UAVs.

+

extend its reach far beyond the range and endurance of its helicopters. It seems a shame not to do the same with our considerably larger, newer and more expensive carriers that are expected to serve into the 2060s at least.

Check out the IISS blog. In the piece about carrier aviation they say that PoW will be a platform for unpecified trials (on the above lines)
- have not seen that elsewhere

[Brasil]

The ship always belonged to the navy.

Are the Marines not part of the navy?

They are a branch of the Brazilian Navy.

[Ron5]

Great read Jensy. Thanks!

[SW1]

Littoral strike ship going from strength to strength

[ArmChairCivvy]

We have to have new ships
... so new that they are still on the drawing board; or the metal has only just been cut

[Poiuytrewq]

Littoral strike ship going from strength to strength

It is highly embarrassing for HMG that we had this capability, decided to bin it for a pittance and are now trying to require it at substantial cost. Not to mention that it will take at least another decade to arrive.

We have to have new ships
... so new that they are still on the drawing board; or the metal has only just been cut

How long will it take for the bean-counters to realise that credible Littoral Strike will require two Ocean-like vessels?

Perhaps modified and with a slightly lower capacity than Ocean but IMO it's a fair bet that RN will end up with two LPH's to provide Littoral Strike with the FCF.

[donald_of_tokyo]

Bay LSD with hangar is nothing wrong for LRG, because I think up to a company level insertion is the most UK can afford without carrier air wings' help. If a full commando (battalion) is to be landed, it is better to be associated with impressive strike capability = just call a carrier.

Requiring "Carrier Strike" AND "large surge LRG" at the same time but at different locations, is very very difficult task, I think. Concentration of power is important in war time. Solve one theater, and then go to the other one. In this case, CV's huge (as compared to Ocean LPH) capability is important.

By the way, Ocean was nearing its useful life, and selling her is NOT a big issue, I think. Brazil using her is not much different from Pakistan navy using T21 frigates. Yes you can do it, but, is it really efficient? If needed (= LRG vessel turned out to be "must be" LPH-like), just build new one. For example, banning 6 Multi Role Support Ships, to build 2 LPH and 4 Multi Role Support Ships is one solution.

[Brasil]

Now she is Helping Brazil in the landslides.

Context:
https://www.bbc.com/news/world-latin-america-64701062

Videos:

[shark bait]

She looks brand new in the video. Very nice!

[Brasil]

She looks brand new in the video. Very nice!

Yes sir!

[shark bait]

That second video is great! Particularly like the tour of the vehicle ramps. I always tried to find good details of the vehicle ramp when she was in RN service but never did.

[Brasil]

That second video is great! Particularly like the tour of the vehicle ramps. I always tried to find good details of the vehicle ramp when she was in RN service but never did.

There is a lot of content on Youtube about her. The Brazilian navy always holds naval exercises, and when they are over, the ships are always open for visitation.