UK Defence Forum

SD67 wrote: ↑05 Oct 2022, 09:38 RBSL seem to be subcontracting out much of the Boxer manufacturing to WFEL and Pearson

That is a misunderstanding of the 'ownership' of Boxer. It is split between KMW - Krauss-Maffei Wegmann and Rheinmetall. Generally speaking KMW are responsible for the hull and Rheinmetall the payload modules\turret. Please note the exact relationship is blurred due to work share agreements etc on particular projects. In the UK KMW through their subsidiary company WFEL are building 'half' and Rheinmetall through their subsidiary RBSL are also building 'half'. There are of course further subcontractors involved building components like Pearson.

not specifically a vehicle we would be buying but could see the setup repeated

"60 of the Future All-Terrain Vehicles (FATVs) from 2025 to replace its current fleet of Vikings and the older Bv 206"

All of them?
Does this mean 60x BvS10 (Mk3) replacing:
99 BvS-10 Mk2 and;
293 strong BV206 fleet
Is that it? In which case we're looking at a massive reduction!

For reference, in 2015 Defence News was reporting that the MoD had a requirement for 212 BvS206 replacement vehicles "for use in a supporting role to the Viking" (which itself was a fleet of 100 odd vehicles)!
https://www.defensenews.com/land/2015/0 ... r-marines/

jedibeeftrix wrote: ↑16 Dec 2022, 13:43 "60 of the Future All-Terrain Vehicles (FATVs) from 2025 to replace its current fleet of Vikings and the older Bv 206"

All of them?
Does this mean 60x BvS10 (Mk3) replacing:
99 BvS-10 Mk2 and;
293 strong BV206 fleet
Is that it? In which case we're looking at a massive reduction!

For reference, in 2015 Defence News was reporting that the MoD had a requirement for 212 BvS206 replacement vehicles "for use in a supporting role to the Viking" (which itself was a fleet of 100 odd vehicles)!
https://www.defensenews.com/land/2015/0 ... r-marines/

Does seem a small number hopefully the initial batch. Wouldn’t mind seeing bvs10 adopted more widely across the light forces. Chinook liftable and used across complex terrain from the artic to the desert and everywhere in between

Another stealth cut if the figure is 60, probably one of the most useful go anywhere vehicles the UK forces owned.

jedibeeftrix wrote: ↑16 Dec 2022, 13:43 "60 of the Future All-Terrain Vehicles (FATVs) from 2025 to replace its current fleet of Vikings and the older Bv 206"

All of them?
Does this mean 60x BvS10 (Mk3) replacing:
99 BvS-10 Mk2 and;
293 strong BV206 fleet
Is that it? In which case we're looking at a massive reduction

Does UK still operate a BV206 fleet?

Whilst it could be a cut, it could also be a plan to operate a split fleet of vehicles. Viking didn't get heavy work once Warthog entered service (and retired).

RunningStrong wrote: ↑16 Dec 2022, 20:46

jedibeeftrix wrote: ↑16 Dec 2022, 13:43 "60 of the Future All-Terrain Vehicles (FATVs) from 2025 to replace its current fleet of Vikings and the older Bv 206"

All of them?
Does this mean 60x BvS10 (Mk3) replacing:
99 BvS-10 Mk2 and;
293 strong BV206 fleet
Is that it? In which case we're looking at a massive reduction

Does UK still operate a BV206 fleet?

Whilst it could be a cut, it could also be a plan to operate a split fleet of vehicles. Viking didn't get heavy work once Warthog entered service (and retired).

it had a requirement for 212 replacements vehicles in 2015. in UK procurement terms that probably means their soldiering on manfully despite their venerable age.

This states quite clearly the the 60 ATV's for the UK, are for the use of the UK Commando Force in the littoral response group.

https://www.gov.uk/government/news/brit ... -agreement

Looking at post further up steam it seems the new BVS10 Vikings are replacing the aging BV206s. Such a programme has been on the cards for a while as the BS10 ias a larger and more capable platform. As there will be the latest variant of the BS10 using them in the Littoral Response Groups makes sense but I do not think any of the current BVs10 fleet will be retiring.

Tempest414 wrote: ↑03 Jan 2023, 18:32 I am sure but where do we stop. As it has been said what could be done with the money lets take the funding for the extra 500 Boxers lets say this equals 2.1 Billion should we be looking to buy 200 Boxers , 300 BVs-10's and 700 Bushmasters for the same money

I agree. We need to prioritise the replacement of FV432/CVR(T) and the most effective way of that is by progressing MRV-P part 2.

So just doing some simple sums from quick figures and based on the funding for 500 extra Boxers set at 2 billion

if we give Boxer a unit price in pounds of 4 million and BvS-10 a unit price of 1.5 million and then Bushmaster a unit price of 600,000 this could allow us to buy something like

200 Boxer = 800 million pounds ( total feet size 823 )
500 BvS-10 = 750 million pounds ( total fleet size 660)
800 Bushmaster = 480 million pounds ( total fleet size 800 )

Total cost 2.03 Billion

Tempest414 wrote: ↑04 Jan 2023, 12:03 So just doing some simple sums from quick figures and based on the funding for 500 extra Boxers set at 2 billion

if we give Boxer a unit price in pounds of 4 million and BvS-10 a unit price of 1.5 million and then Bushmaster a unit price of 600,000 this could allow us to buy something like

200 Boxer = 800 million pounds ( total feet size 823 )
500 BvS-10 = 750 million pounds ( total fleet size 660)
800 Bushmaster = 480 million pounds ( total fleet size 800 )

Total cost 2.03 Billion

To replace 880 Bulldog vehicles, 218 Husky, 99 Viking, Pinz (<100?).

Tempest414 wrote: ↑04 Jan 2023, 12:03 ... Bushmaster a unit price of 600,000 ....

800 Bushmaster = 480 million pounds ( total fleet size 800 )

I am not sure how do you get these numbers but this is serious underestimation of the costs for Bushmasters. Wikipedia is using article published in sunrise from last year as a source for vehicle price, which is listed at AUD2.45 million per unit (£1.4 million). Two years ago, in 2020, New Zealand bought 43 Bushmasters for NZD102.9 million ($67 million). I am not sure what was rate than but today it would mean £54 million total or £1.25 million per unit. So £600,000 per vehicle looks unrealistic and price per unit would be almost double that amount.

sol wrote: ↑04 Jan 2023, 15:09

Tempest414 wrote: ↑04 Jan 2023, 12:03 ... Bushmaster a unit price of 600,000 ....

800 Bushmaster = 480 million pounds ( total fleet size 800 )

I am not sure how do you get these numbers but this is serious underestimation of the costs for Bushmasters. Wikipedia is using article published in sunrise from last year as a source for vehicle price, which is listed at AUD2.45 million per unit (£1.4 million). Two years ago, in 2020, New Zealand bought 43 Bushmasters for NZD102.9 million ($67 million). I am not sure what was rate than but today it would mean £54 million total or £1.25 million per unit. So £600,000 per vehicle looks unrealistic and price per unit would be almost double that amount.

OK lets play with those figures and keeping the 4 million per Boxer 500 would = 2 billion pound so it could brake it down like so

150 Boxers @ 4 million each = 600 million
500 BvS-10 @ 1.5 million each = 750 million
500 Bushmaster @ 1.4 million each = 700 million

The other option could be a buy of

175 Boxer = 700 million
1200 Patria 6x6 = 1.3 billion

All very good but these vehicles are getting on for 20 years old now for me we need to move on Keep Jackal and Foxhound and replace Mastiff with 600 Prtria 6x6 at the same time start design of a UK replacement for Jackal & Foxhound with a 1200 vehicle order to start in 2030

is MRV(P) British to be cancelled? or change requirement? or delay as JTLV upgrade A2 Version ?

Package 1 I think we should find a Vehicle with a small flat top or full flat top for Spear 3 / Brimstone 3 / MMP (or Spike LR2) / Martlet / Starstreak / Switchblade 300+600 or supply troop or mortar automatic loading and small smart remote fire 81mm like one Israel use.. Foxhound ? HM400 ? JTLV? or other?

6x6 Patria is the best choice for MRAP for Ambulance / Troop Transport (Package 2) Replacement for Wolfhound / Mastiff / Saxon; might be worth requesting them to become mission modular 6x6 Patria so can use it as a flat top "Truck" style "Stalwart" style \ full cabin \ large Automanic Remote Mortar 120mm \ Missiles Pod ie Brimstone, Spear 3, LPM etc to save cost rather use Boxer ?

Reason: they have swimming kits, the idea for across the river to avoid using bridges so there is less chance of chokepoints, and they also can launch an amphibious suspire mission with less mud on the side of the river. learn the lesson ie the Ukraine war. it is a good idea to bring back the same as what Stalwart used to be.

Another good option for it is an across any Ford with ease or can operate in areas where floods, like some parts of the UK, will flash floods or floods, so they can respond to aid the emergency or navigate around these will less hassle, also can rescue by open top port. even across the water with the ambulance so more quick response.

Package 3 we will look at Supacat HM600 as they are very flexible as we already have lots of service for these vehicles. (Jackals / Exactor Mk2, and more)

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Plus use both 8x8 Boxer and Tracked Boxer to replace Bulldog Mk.3 and Warrior IFV for Mech Infantry as both can use the same modular.

Tracked Boxer focus more on soft ground (Desert) and wet Mud ground (Muddy countryside)
Wheeled Boxer focus on Road and Snow / Ice Ground

Modular will be able to switch depending on operation in the environment will save lots of money.