UK Defence Forum

SW1 wrote:whatever replaces puma replaces merlin

Exhibit #657: why the royal navy own their helicopters and why they should own their fast jets too.

"But Admiral, I thought Russia was our enemy?"

"No son, the RAF is our enemy, Russia is the opposition"

SW1 wrote:whatever replaces puma replaces merlin.

They may both be part of the joint helicopter Forces but they have different roles and the Merlin will meet the needs of the Royal Marines for quite some time and well past that of the Puma OSD.

Providing the AAC with a the AW169W will enable 16 Air Assault to regain its integral battlefield support capability it lost with the retirement of the Lynx AH-9 as I mentioned earlier, but with a more versatile platform able to properly support SF operations as well as many of the duties performed by the Pumas at present. This leaves the RAF with just the Chinooks operating from one RAF base and the economies that brings.

Ron5 wrote:

SW1 wrote:whatever replaces puma replaces merlin

Exhibit #657: why the royal navy own their helicopters and why they should own their fast jets too.

"

Fully agreed.

Just buy more Merlins.

Lord Jim wrote:They may both be part of the joint helicopter Forces but they have different roles and the Merlin will meet the needs of the Royal Marines for quite some time and well past that of the Puma OSD.

Not that different. Merlins OSD is officially 2029, that is likely to push back to 2035 but it’s not as far away as you think. Merlin is overly complex overly expensive and has historically suffered from poor availability. Outside a handful in the Italian navy nobody has really bought merlin for asw work, Seahawk being the most common choice.

Likewise troop transport most versions of merlin have been bought for search and rescue and VIP transport outside of the uk. If you looking long term for both a industrial and service basis then some around the Blackhawk size, weight which is where Leonardo have positioned aw149 as a modern replacement.

Gabriele wrote:Please welcome 1st Combat Aviation Brigade, officially formed today. Finally, after years of hesitations, the restructuring of helicopter elements has started.



And no, in case you are wondering, it is NOT an April's fools.

I wonder how much this changes things inside JHC, duplication or elimination? Or just something to bung on a ojar?

If the Merlin HC4s are doing what they ae supposed to they will probably remain in service as long as the HM2s. It makes shipborne logistics easier as they will use many same support packages, and other similarities. Maintaining them is going to be cheaper than replacing them unless they are no longer capable of doing the job. I do not know the OSD for the ASW Merlin HM2 but that should be seen as the true benchmark for the retirement of the HC4s regardless f current proclaimations.
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As for the Puma, it is vulnerable if the RAF has to save a chunk of money as it is one of the few aircraft it can do without.

Giving any AW169Ms possibly purchased to the AAC would give them a new capability or rather return one. They could, as already mentioned, act as a partial Puma replacement in the latter's role providing battlefield support.

SW1 wrote: Leonardo have positioned aw149 as a modern replacement.

The only issue with the AW149 is how few countries have bought it. But the AW-189 being developed as a civilian version should alleviate those concerns to a degree.

But what needs to be done is industrial. Right now our national capability to manufacture helicopters is on its arse.

To replace Puma and Merlin we have 5 choices, 3 of which are sensible:

1) - Buy whatever wins the US FVL contest and accept that we have lost our manufacturing capability for good, but the capability proffered will be advanced.
2) - Buy an AW149, accept that capability will not be massively enhanced at any point in the next 40 years but insist on full UK production.
3) - Just buy AW-149 off the shelf and accept Yeovil shuts down as a manufacturer.
4) - Buy SH-60 variants, accept a loss of capability and loss of manufacturing and an aged platform, if its still available then.
5) - Look for a European or Collaborative equivalent to FVL with industrial benefits/production in the UK

To me there are only 2 that are acceptable 2) and 5). But we'll probably do 1) or 3)...
We should really be thinking about Chinook replacement soon as well...

Timmymagic wrote:

SW1 wrote: Leonardo have positioned aw149 as a modern replacement.

The only issue with the AW149 is how few countries have bought it. But the AW-189 being developed as a civilian version should alleviate those concerns to a degree.

But what needs to be done is industrial. Right now our national capability to manufacture helicopters is on its arse.

To replace Puma and Merlin we have 5 choices, 3 of which are sensible:

1) - Buy whatever wins the US FVL contest and accept that we have lost our manufacturing capability for good, but the capability proffered will be advanced.
2) - Buy an AW149, accept that capability will not be massively enhanced at any point in the next 40 years but insist on full UK production.
3) - Just buy AW-149 off the shelf and accept Yeovil shuts down as a manufacturer.
4) - Buy SH-60 variants, accept a loss of capability and loss of manufacturing and an aged platform, if its still available then.
5) - Look for a European or Collaborative equivalent to FVL with industrial benefits/production in the UK

To me there are only 2 that are acceptable 2) and 5). But we'll probably do 1) or 3)...
We should really be thinking about Chinook replacement soon as well...

Yes it’s sales have been slow with the civil version more popular but if you want to go the Yeovil route there isn’t really much other options. The rest of Europe have chose the airbus NH-90 and that’s not going to change. The last thing we need to do is have yet more buy American. You get into how the roles will change due to how the army and marines reconfigure and how istar unmanned assets come into the mix.

This maybe a couple of years ago

https://www.defensenews.com/digital-sho ... vice-date/

Britain's Joint Helicopter Command wants to extend the out-of-service date of its Puma helicopter fleet to harmonize with the expected withdrawal of the Merlin, according to Maj. Gen. Richard Felton, the force's commander.

"It would be nice when defense looks at future medium lift if we could right across the piece look at replacing the Puma and Merlin at the same time. We would like to extend the 2025 [out-of-service date] to 2030 or 2035," Felton told reporters following a speech at a rotorcraft conference at London's Excel Centre where the DSEI defense show opens Tuesday.

The British operate medium-lift Pumas alongside a fleet of Merlin helicopters now starting to be converted from a battlefield support role to amphibious lift for Royal Marine commandos. The British also operate a large fleet of Chinooks.

For me if we take the view that what ever we replace Puma with needs be common with another service then we need to look very hard at the gaps that may need plugging. So lets say the Army was to go for 40 AW169m with skids for me the RAF could be given 25 or 30 AW169m with folding rotors which could allow them to support the AAC or RN were needed. however if we are to replace Puma and Merlin with one type then the RN's needs need to come top of the pile and the new type needs to cover ASW , AEW and tactical transport and so maybe something like a bigger AW-609m built at Yeovil may be a good option

The AW169 and AW609 are both far, far too small to replace Puma or Merlin.

AW's current Puma sized replacements are the AW139M and the AW149.

To replace the Merlin in size and capability they need to develop a folding wing variant of the NextGenCTR. If we could hold on until the 2030-35 timeframe it might work...

https://www.leonardocompany.com/en/inno ... tor-ngctr-

Tempest414 wrote:new type needs to cover ASW , AEW

How much of that stays rotary and or manned in the 2030s? How will tethered radar systems, pseudo satellites, fire scout derivatives, persistent usv ect feed into the mix.

Timmymagic wrote:The AW169 and AW609 are both far, far too small to replace Puma or Merlin.

I feel the Puma replacement depends on what gap needs plugging

Timmymagic wrote:To replace the Merlin in size and capability they need to develop a folding wing variant of the NextGenCTR. If we could hold on until the 2030-35 timeframe it might work...

https://www.leonardocompany.com/en/inno ... tor-ngctr-

I did say bigger AW609 which what you have put above is just that. And now there is talk of push back Puma OSD to 2030 it could be in the game

SW1 wrote:How much of that stays rotary and or manned in the 2030s? How will tethered radar systems, pseudo satellites, fire scout derivatives, persistent usv ect feed into the mix.

All good questions however I cant see the carriers having Cat and trap fitted for UAV'a so rotors or tilt rotors will be the way ahead for me

Lord Jim wrote: .
As for the Puma, it is vulnerable if the RAF has to save a chunk of money as it is one of the few aircraft it can do without.

.

Can anyone tell me what's so wrong with just buying let's say 20 new Merlins to replace Pumas? God forbid that HMG would support British industry... What's so fundamentally wrong with Merlins that they can't soldier on for next 30+ years? I mean, yes, it would be nice to buy Ospreys and other such nice things, but let's face it, UK will never have money to do that...

Tempest414 wrote:

SW1 wrote:How much of that stays rotary and or manned in the 2030s? How will tethered radar systems, pseudo satellites, fire scout derivatives, persistent usv ect feed into the mix.

All good questions however I cant see the carriers having Cat and trap fitted for UAV'a so rotors or tilt rotors will be the way ahead for me

You could end up with something that looks a bit like a modern OV-10 bronco especially if unmanned or optionally manned. You could also have something along the lines of the kratos launch and recovery method. The rotors option for an unmanned system maybe very different to what is required for manned missions.

abc123 wrote:

Lord Jim wrote: .
As for the Puma, it is vulnerable if the RAF has to save a chunk of money as it is one of the few aircraft it can do without.

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Can anyone tell me what's so wrong with just buying let's say 20 new Merlins to replace Pumas? God forbid that HMG would support British industry... What's so fundamentally wrong with Merlins that they can't soldier on for next 30+ years? I mean, yes, it would be nice to buy Ospreys and other such nice things, but let's face it, UK will never have money to do that...

Because merlin needs a significantly larger sized area to land in than a Puma. If your going to use something as big as merlin you may as well use a chinook which is by far the superior a/c in that size bracket. A major consideration if your looking at urban operations.

Merlin costs significantly more to operate than Puma 3 engines v 2. Puma mk2 when deployed doesn’t see the same performance drop off that merlin does when temperatures and altitude rise.

Uk government can support British industry purchasing a number of the options discussed. Airbus helicopters have facilities in oxford and Aberdeen and of course Leonardo at Yeovil.

abc123 wrote:Can anyone tell me what's so wrong with just buying let's say 20 new Merlins to replace Pumas? God forbid that HMG would support British industry... What's so fundamentally wrong with Merlins that they can't soldier on for next 30+ years? I mean, yes, it would be nice to buy Ospreys and other such nice things, but let's face it, UK will never have money to do that...

Back in the day when the RAF had Merlin it was found to be not as good as a Chinook and not as portable or as good as Puma in confined spaces like we saw in the NI and the Balkans. at the time many in the RAF said we should of got UH-60 Blackhawks

SW1 wrote:Britain's Joint Helicopter Command wants to extend the out-of-service date of its Puma helicopter fleet to harmonize with the expected withdrawal of the Merlin, according to Maj. Gen. Richard Felton, the force's commander.

He was talking about the RAF Merlins which no longer need replacing.

SW1 wrote:Uk government can support British industry purchasing a number of the options discussed. Airbus helicopters have facilities in oxford and Aberdeen ..

By the same flimsy argument the UK should buy Lockheed or Boeing. And get a superior product too.

Tempest414 wrote:

abc123 wrote:Can anyone tell me what's so wrong with just buying let's say 20 new Merlins to replace Pumas? God forbid that HMG would support British industry... What's so fundamentally wrong with Merlins that they can't soldier on for next 30+ years? I mean, yes, it would be nice to buy Ospreys and other such nice things, but let's face it, UK will never have money to do that...

Back in the day when the RAF had Merlin it was found to be not as good as a Chinook and not as portable or as good as Puma in confined spaces like we saw in the NI and the Balkans. at the time many in the RAF said we should of got UH-60 Blackhawks

Right. Just buy everything from the States and close the whole British defence industry.
I mean, and I know that many will here say: it's Russia. But, Rusians are using their good enough, old and reliable Mi-8/17 for how long? 60 years? And will use them for at least 20 more ( with modernisation and new variants ), without being too much worse for it. Of course, they are stoopid drunk Ruskies, they could have just buy them from Sikorsky or Bell.

SW1 wrote:

abc123 wrote:

Lord Jim wrote: .
As for the Puma, it is vulnerable if the RAF has to save a chunk of money as it is one of the few aircraft it can do without.

.

Can anyone tell me what's so wrong with just buying let's say 20 new Merlins to replace Pumas? God forbid that HMG would support British industry... What's so fundamentally wrong with Merlins that they can't soldier on for next 30+ years? I mean, yes, it would be nice to buy Ospreys and other such nice things, but let's face it, UK will never have money to do that...

Because merlin needs a significantly larger sized area to land in than a Puma. If your going to use something as big as merlin you may as well use a chinook which is by far the superior a/c in that size bracket. A major consideration if your looking at urban operations.

Merlin costs significantly more to operate than Puma 3 engines v 2. Puma mk2 when deployed doesn’t see the same performance drop off that merlin does when temperatures and altitude rise.

Uk government can support British industry purchasing a number of the options discussed. Airbus helicopters have facilities in oxford and Aberdeen and of course Leonardo at Yeovil.

So you want to land it on a postcard? Come on. Less movies please.
3 engines offers greater chance not to loose the helicopter.
And I'm not saying that Merlin has no it's share of problems. But better to invest in a new version of Merlin that might mitigate such problems as much as possible and keep the money in the UK, than buy foreign ( US ) helicopters. I mean, I can maybe understand the need to placate Leonardo so that their factory in the UK stays open, but why buy Italian? Merlin and Wildcat are mostly BRITISH helicopters, while everything else from Leonardo is Italian.

I was avoiding mentioning the UH-60 option, though if we went down that Rabbit hole like the AW169M with skids they should go to the AAC not RAF. Let the RAF concentrate on the Chinook and the heavy lifting and let the AAC handle the Battlefield Utility, light attack, assault roles, using a combination of AH-64E and AW169Ms. A AW169M equipped AAC Regiment would be almost able to list an entire Infantry Battalion in one lift with the RAF Chinooks moving its heavier items and logistics forward.

abc123 wrote:

SW1 wrote:

abc123 wrote:

Lord Jim wrote: .
As for the Puma, it is vulnerable if the RAF has to save a chunk of money as it is one of the few aircraft it can do without.

.

Can anyone tell me what's so wrong with just buying let's say 20 new Merlins to replace Pumas? God forbid that HMG would support British industry... What's so fundamentally wrong with Merlins that they can't soldier on for next 30+ years? I mean, yes, it would be nice to buy Ospreys and other such nice things, but let's face it, UK will never have money to do that...

Because merlin needs a significantly larger sized area to land in than a Puma. If your going to use something as big as merlin you may as well use a chinook which is by far the superior a/c in that size bracket. A major consideration if your looking at urban operations.

Merlin costs significantly more to operate than Puma 3 engines v 2. Puma mk2 when deployed doesn’t see the same performance drop off that merlin does when temperatures and altitude rise.

Uk government can support British industry purchasing a number of the options discussed. Airbus helicopters have facilities in oxford and Aberdeen and of course Leonardo at Yeovil.

So you want to land it on a postcard? Come on. Less movies please.
3 engines offers greater chance not to loose the helicopter.
And I'm not saying that Merlin has no it's share of problems. But better to invest in a new version of Merlin that might mitigate such problems as much as possible and keep the money in the UK, than buy foreign ( US ) helicopters. I mean, I can maybe understand the need to placate Leonardo so that their factory in the UK stays open, but why buy Italian? Merlin and Wildcat are mostly BRITISH helicopters, while everything else from Leonardo is Italian.

Not necessarily, that concept in aviation went out with the ark in about 1970. You don’t need more than 2 engines why they have single engine operating limits margins designed in from the begining.

Don’t know why I think merlin is a mostly British helicopter it was a collaborate program it has a final assembly line in the UK with components coming from around Europe. Similar would be available for any of the leonardo options.

abc123 wrote:Right. Just buy everything from the States and close the whole British defence industry.

Firstly I did not say buy UH-60 from the US I said many at the time in the RAF said they should have got UH-60 if you took some time to read posts up thread I have said the Gazelle or Puma replacement should be built at Yeovil. This can take the form of AW-169m or AW-149m or even NH-90 as Leonardo build or have a hand in all three. But what I will say is Merlin is Not a replacement for Puma as it has already been tried and failed it is just to big.