Joint Helicopter Force

Contains threads on Joint Service equipment of the past, present and future.
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ArmChairCivvy
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Re: Joint Helicopter Force

Post by ArmChairCivvy »

Agree with the points above, but I believe only the ASW ('frigate') version of the NH90 is navalised.
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Tempest414
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Re: Joint Helicopter Force

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The NH-90 program has the MTT (Maritime Tactical Transport ) on its books from Feb 2019

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Re: Joint Helicopter Force

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Tempest414
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Re: Joint Helicopter Force

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How tall is that would it in a carriers hangar if not no good I would say this being said I still think when the CHF Merlin HC-4's need replacing we should look at tilt rotors

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Lord Jim
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Re: Joint Helicopter Force

Post by Lord Jim »

But isn't 16 Air Assault still classified as the Army's early entry formation, but as described it is in pieces all over the workshop show to speak and like other Army formation unable to carry out its assigned role without investment and reorganisation. All the dithering and under investment since 1990s has really come home to bite the service in the arse. The next review almost needs to start with a clean sheet of paper and redo its entire organisation but keeping only 3rd and 6th Divisions but having them properly equipped and manned.

As for helicopter, the Chinook is a great platform for moving large number of troops from A to B but it is not an assault platform. It is a bloody big target and if you lose one you also lose a lot of personnel in one go. The Army needs a platform able to transport and Infantry Section with its equipment of a number of weapons teams around the battle zone. supported by the RAF's Chinooks to move up logistics and heavier equipment behind. Think more of how the Army used to use its lynx to move troops around in a similar role in German back in the BOAR days rather than how we operated in Afghanistan, and why they bought the Lynx AH9 back in the day.

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ArmChairCivvy
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Re: Joint Helicopter Force

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Lord Jim wrote:why they bought the Lynx AH9 back in the day.
Brought back? Was upgraded for rappelling (insertation) and convoy protection (side/ fwrd firing armament)
- why on earth did we retire them
... with the engine commonality and all that?
Ever-lasting truths: Multi-year budgets/ planning by necessity have to address the painful questions; more often than not the Either-Or prevails over Both-And.
If everyone is thinking the same, then someone is not thinking (attributed to Patton)

SW1
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Re: Joint Helicopter Force

Post by SW1 »

That thing is clearly going against the old adage of if it looks right is is right


LJ

The role your describing is akin to the 101st airborne role and the uk has never really done that and will never have the aviations assets to do it. There’s to be a discussion round the Paras heading toward a us rangers type role or switching back to a form of parachute delivery.

I would agree I think there is a need to move small teams about but it will be specialist in nature kind of shows wildcat was the wrong choice. Too expensive and too small.

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Tempest414
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Re: Joint Helicopter Force

Post by Tempest414 »

Maybe the Army should get rid of its Wildcats & Gazelles and replace them with 50 UH-72's would make a nice round number

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Re: Joint Helicopter Force

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Tempest414 wrote:Maybe the Army should get rid of its Wildcats & Gazelles and replace them with 50 UH-72's would make a nice round number
Or actually go with new technology instead of just more of the same decades old designs.

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Re: Joint Helicopter Force

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Tempest414 wrote:Maybe the Army should get rid of its Wildcats & Gazelles and replace them with 50 UH-72's would make a nice round number
Would agree if you wanted something immediate and affordable yep ideal the h145m in european parlance. Specially the new 5 bladed version.

If you wanted to wait for newer technology the racer maybe of interest https://www.ge.com/reports/fast-furious ... ir-travel/

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ArmChairCivvy
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Re: Joint Helicopter Force

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SW1 wrote:The role your describing is akin to the 101st airborne role
biggest US bde (27.000, with all support counted in; 16X was also our biggest bde at one time, @ 8.000 bods)
SW1 wrote: a discussion round the Paras heading toward a us rangers type role or switching back to a form of parachute delivery.
that's the 82nd then
SW1 wrote: wildcat was the wrong choice. Too expensive and too small.
but fast ;)
Tempest414 wrote: get rid of its Wildcats & Gazelles
Gazelles are well on their way
- with them and the Pumas there will be a huge opening in the mid-range (of the fleet)
... I've always held that it is part of "the plan"; cut and paste from SW's link
"long sought [ a] flight “unicorn” that’s simultaneously cost-effective, fast and agile" coming around about by then?
Ever-lasting truths: Multi-year budgets/ planning by necessity have to address the painful questions; more often than not the Either-Or prevails over Both-And.
If everyone is thinking the same, then someone is not thinking (attributed to Patton)

Ron5
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Re: Joint Helicopter Force

Post by Ron5 »

Somehow I don't think it will be one of these ..

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Lord Jim
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Re: Joint Helicopter Force

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Turning 16 Air Assault into a "Ranger" style formation, bringing all three Parachute Battalions together plus the Gurkhas. One Battalion would be allocated in the SFSG role on a rotational basis. the brigade would be trained in both Parachute and Air mobile operations though the latter is its more likely mode.

Specialist vehicles would be provided like 4x4 platforms that can be carried internally within the Chinook if required and UGVs. Light weight indirect fire systems with much greater range, lethality and precision than the existing 105mm Light Guns would be required, as well as similarly mobile and capable units form 6th Division, under which 16 Air Assault together with both regular and reserve SF come under as part of a wider Army re organisation. (The reserve SF already do)

As I said the Chinooks will still be needed to provide support but a helicopter capable of carrying up to ten fully equipped troop, that is readily available and could possibly be built in the UK down in the South West should be acquired to equip a AAC Regiment, and the Leonardo AW169M would fit that role as would the UH-60M, with the Wildcats being retired sold off except eight to ten which could be turned into Armed Recce/Attack platform for the Royal Marines by modifying them in a similar way the Merlin HC3s were to make them suitable for maritime use. In the longer term the winners of the US Army current aviation programmes should also be looked at to replace these
https://www.leonardocompany.com/en/products/aw169m

Little J
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Re: Joint Helicopter Force

Post by Little J »

Think the 169 is to small, "seating up to ten" would be in light order (it's barely any bigger than the Wildcat... It would have made a good basis for the Wildcat rather than the Lynx). The more ideal minimum size would be the 139.

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Re: Joint Helicopter Force

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Ron5 wrote:Or actually go with new technology instead of just more of the same decades old designs.
SW1 wrote:If you wanted to wait for newer technology the racer maybe of interest
Gents I am all for an eye on the future however at this time money is the big problem that we face. For me something like H-145M would fit well into the AAC it is already in service with the MOD can carry 2 + 10 people has a weapons pack if it replaced Wildcat and Gazelle it would lighten the logistics load and training times for crews with say 60 H145m and 50 AH-64E the AAC would be in a good place

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Re: Joint Helicopter Force

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Tempest414 wrote:
Ron5 wrote:Or actually go with new technology instead of just more of the same decades old designs.
SW1 wrote:If you wanted to wait for newer technology the racer maybe of interest
Gents I am all for an eye on the future however at this time money is the big problem that we face. For me something like H-145M would fit well into the AAC it is already in service with the MOD can carry 2 + 10 people has a weapons pack if it replaced Wildcat and Gazelle it would lighten the logistics load and training times for crews with say 60 H145m and 50 AH-64E the AAC would be in a good place
The world and the bad guys don't stand still just because you might choose to.

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Tempest414
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Re: Joint Helicopter Force

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Ron5 wrote:The world and the bad guys don't stand still just because you might choose to.
Easy to say when your armed forces have 748 billion a year to play with and until the new US program is in production it is only a wet dream for the likes of the UK forces Christ even V-22 is a wet dream right now for the UK so as for standing still it is what it is

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Re: Joint Helicopter Force

Post by Ron5 »

Tempest414 wrote:
Ron5 wrote:The world and the bad guys don't stand still just because you might choose to.
Easy to say when your armed forces have 748 billion a year to play with and until the new US program is in production it is only a wet dream for the likes of the UK forces Christ even V-22 is a wet dream right now for the UK so as for standing still it is what it is
There's a shit load of UK kit that leads the world so get off your pity sofa.

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Tempest414
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Re: Joint Helicopter Force

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and I would say get off you high horse it has no F'in legs

bobp
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Re: Joint Helicopter Force

Post by bobp »

Cash for anything new is going to difficult for a couple of years, but ideally a few more Helicopters would be a good thing.

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Tempest414
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Re: Joint Helicopter Force

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Given that at this time the AAC operate 5 types of helicopter and Gazelle is to go out of service in 2025 I think the AAC should replace the 32 Gazelle , 5 Dauphin and 5 Bell 212 with 40 H-145M fitted with the folding 5 bladed rotor. This would allow the AAC to go from 5 to 3 types of helicopter giving the AAC 50 AH-64E , 34 Wildcats and 40 H145M reducing logistics and training

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Re: Joint Helicopter Force

Post by Caribbean »

Could the H145 also replace Wildcat (with the Wildcat being "marinised" and moved over to the RN), or are there features that could not be carried across.
The pessimist sees difficulty in every opportunity. The optimist sees the opportunity in every difficulty.
Winston Churchill

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Tempest414
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Re: Joint Helicopter Force

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I did say up thread maybe 50 AH-64's and 60 or 70 H145m could work for the AAC . Maybe then 15 of the armies 30 wildcats could go to the RN/CHF

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Re: Joint Helicopter Force

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Ron5
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Re: Joint Helicopter Force

Post by Ron5 »

Basically a 50 year old design, that's the ticket.

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