Joint Helicopter Force

Contains threads on Joint Service equipment of the past, present and future.
Little J
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Re: Joint Helicopter Force

Post by Little J »

Does anyone happen to know why we dropped out of the NH90? The TTH (and more so the new MTT) would have been an obvious Puma replacement... And maybe if we was in, we could have fixed some of the issues early (like how stupidly low it sits)?

P. S. I can guess why we didn't want the NFH... :D

Ron5
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Re: Joint Helicopter Force

Post by Ron5 »

Little J wrote:Does anyone happen to know why we dropped out of the NH90? The TTH (and more so the new MTT) would have been an obvious Puma replacement... And maybe if we was in, we could have fixed some of the issues early (like how stupidly low it sits)?

P. S. I can guess why we didn't want the NFH... :D
It was a clusterF from the getgo. Well avoided.

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Tempest414
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Re: Joint Helicopter Force

Post by Tempest414 »

So just to give some idea of price for AW169M Italy have a order signed in 2018 for 22 AW169m at 280 million Euros including complete support and training package so if the AAC were to go for say 40 we could be looking at about 500 million with complete support and training package

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ArmChairCivvy
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Re: Joint Helicopter Force

Post by ArmChairCivvy »

Tempest414 wrote:in 2018 for 22 AW169m at 280 million Euros
Same in pounds for a slightly higher number of refurbed Pumas (no inflation adjustment; and the defensive aids I guess were not cheap)
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Little J
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Re: Joint Helicopter Force

Post by Little J »

Ron5 wrote: It was a clusterF from the getgo. Well avoided.
Oh I agree it was well avoided, but the question I'm asking is, could they see (even in those early years) how much of a cluster it would be, or were there other reason's?

Lord Jim
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Re: Joint Helicopter Force

Post by Lord Jim »

I think we wanted a larger platform and wanted a UK manufactured solution. The results speak for themselves, the Merlin HM1/2 were expensive but have done everything asked of them very well and are probably the best ASW Helos in the world right now because they are specialised in that role, have a high endurance, excellent avionics and sensors, safety margin of three engines yet can still operate of a Frigate or Destroyer. How many full capability NFH-90s are actually in service one asks even after all this time?

seaspear
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Re: Joint Helicopter Force

Post by seaspear »

i dont know if this has been posted previously but this suggests a possible upgade in asw capabilities for the Merlins
https://www.janes.com/article/95357/rn- ... merlin-hm2

seaspear
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Re: Joint Helicopter Force

Post by seaspear »

This is of course an article from last year concerning the U.S.N seeking remote launched U.A.v capable of detecting magnetic anomalys in detection of submarines only the Indian navies Poseidon operate with the magnetic anomay detector boom as per the contract it was thought by other nations that the operating heights of the aircraft that it would not be effective ,of course the Merlins operating in this role will be at a much lower altitude and slower there may be a case that the Merlins are also able to deploy uav,s as a support
https://www.militaryaerospace.com/unman ... tector-mad

Lord Jim
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Re: Joint Helicopter Force

Post by Lord Jim »

Reading a recent article in one of this months aviation magazines, it appears the retirement of the Puma is likely to be brought forward from 2025 and is linked to the final withdrawal of British Troops from Afghanistan next year. This together with next years retirement of the Sentinels and early retirement of the Sentries over the next couple of years are most likely to be the RAF's sacrifices for the next Defence Review.

abc123
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Re: Joint Helicopter Force

Post by abc123 »

Lord Jim wrote:Reading a recent article in one of this months aviation magazines, it appears the retirement of the Puma is likely to be brought forward from 2025 and is linked to the final withdrawal of British Troops from Afghanistan next year. This together with next years retirement of the Sentinels and early retirement of the Sentries over the next couple of years are most likely to be the RAF's sacrifices for the next Defence Review.
About Pumas, no big harm IMHO. As for Sentinel, well, that's really a painful cut. But considering that they wanted to retire them 10 years ago, I'm surprised they stayed in service this long. Still :thumbdown:

Sentries will be replaced with Wedgetails, right?

About AAC, they might retire Gazellas right away?
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ArmChairCivvy
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Re: Joint Helicopter Force

Post by ArmChairCivvy »

Funnily enough, RE:
"only the Indian navies Poseidon operate with the magnetic anomay detector boom as per the contract it was thought by other nations that the operating heights of the aircraft that it would not be effective ,of course the Merlins operating in this role will be at a much lower altitude and slower there may be a case that the Merlins are also able to deploy uav,s as a support
https://www.militaryaerospace.com/unman ... tector-mad

the Argentine navy flying Trackers off the carrier (er, singular) would then deploy Seakings with MAD to pinpoint anything that the sonobuoys (with a limited life and range) may have detected; like one, or the two, of our S-class that were stalking them ... or rather, it (the carrier)

So, what's new?
except proliferation; in this case the numbers that can be deployed at the target area
... and, sadly, the proliferation goes for nuclear (the whole NBC alphabet)
Ever-lasting truths: Multi-year budgets/ planning by necessity have to address the painful questions; more often than not the Either-Or prevails over Both-And.
If everyone is thinking the same, then someone is not thinking (attributed to Patton)

Ron5
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Re: Joint Helicopter Force

Post by Ron5 »

The RAF stated recently they and the USN were still flying low in their P-8's. The higher flying ops aren't ready yet.

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ArmChairCivvy
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Re: Joint Helicopter Force

Post by ArmChairCivvy »

Ron5 wrote: The higher flying ops aren't ready yet.
Whereas the Indian MAD rqrmnt comes comes from their overall C2; bought from the Russians, where the MAD is a factor
Ever-lasting truths: Multi-year budgets/ planning by necessity have to address the painful questions; more often than not the Either-Or prevails over Both-And.
If everyone is thinking the same, then someone is not thinking (attributed to Patton)

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Tempest414
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Re: Joint Helicopter Force

Post by Tempest414 »

Lord Jim wrote:Reading a recent article in one of this months aviation magazines, it appears the retirement of the Puma is likely to be brought forward from 2025
wasn't it said by the chief of the general staff a few weeks ago that they looking push back Puma OSD back to 2030

Lord Jim
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Re: Joint Helicopter Force

Post by Lord Jim »

That maybe what the RAF would like to do, but the service is gong to have to find savings over the next few years and the Puma is an obvious choice. At present there is a detachment in Kabul supporting the UK Army there and its return is seen as possible retirement point. But this is still only an option, but is possibly less painful than other reductions in the RAF fleet. The Sentinel is already going next year and the Sentry is going before the E-7 arrived with currently a one year gap but their could be greater is if the sentry went earlier. If the Pumas go the RAF could also consolidate operational rotary flying at RAF Odiham.

For example money is needed to fund additional training aircraft as the numbers of Hawk T2s, Texans etc are insufficient to train the number of personnel going through the training system and this is causing major hold ups for example, but this is currently not funded. They have already roped in the Hawk T-1s of 100 Squadrons as a temporary fix, but there is no equivalent to supplement the Texans as the last Tucano has been retired.

That other new equipment and capabilities are going to be identified as needed by the RAF during the on going Review is highly likely whereas the MoD actually getting any significant new money is the exact opposite so saving are going to have to be made on top of filling in the existing hole in the Equipment Programme. Add to that the hit GDP and therefore the 2% minimum that is guaranteed for the Defence Budget, falling inflation so the inflation +1% increase is worth less, and there will be less money for everyone.

So as stated at the beginning sacrifices are going to be made and the Puma Force if a very soft target.

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ArmChairCivvy
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Re: Joint Helicopter Force

Post by ArmChairCivvy »

Recent stats show that only 7 were in fwrd fleet and the rest in sustainment. But you could also read that pointing to the opposite: husbanding the hours (though rotary fleets do not have same kind of fatigue problems as other types) to make them last out to 2030.
- however, factor in the big order for new Chinooks and...
Ever-lasting truths: Multi-year budgets/ planning by necessity have to address the painful questions; more often than not the Either-Or prevails over Both-And.
If everyone is thinking the same, then someone is not thinking (attributed to Patton)

jonas
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Re: Joint Helicopter Force

Post by jonas »

Leonardo investing heavily in AW149 for UK NMH prog :-

https://helihub.com/2021/07/01/leonardo ... r-program/

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Jensy
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Re: Joint Helicopter Force

Post by Jensy »

Couldn't quite decide where to post this article (but felt this thread was closest):

Bell Unveils VTOL Aircraft Concepts That All Feature Fold-Away Rotors For Jet-Speed Flight

Image

https://www.thedrive.com/the-war-zone/4 ... eed-flight
Three different, but similar, HSVTOL concepts were unveiled by Bell today, one of which is apparently unmanned. All of them utilize a propulsion concept in which wingtip rotors are used for vertical lift, then these rotors fold away to reduce drag while turbofans provide thrust for the high-speed, forward flight. The same concept is something that we have seen before in earlier Bell patents for a new-generation "convertiplane."
Image
Bell says that its HSVTOL aircraft are planned to have gross weights ranging from 4,000 pounds to over 100,000 pounds, suggesting that there are other, similar, designs in the works, in addition to these three. By way of contrast, the CV-22B tilt-rotor has a gross weight of 60,500 pounds.
This is the sort of step-change I feel the UK should be seeking for the next generation of rotorcraft, post 2040, with the proposed Puma replacement being as simple and affordable as possible. We should be buying our last "petrol car" not trying to bridge the technological gap with a half hearted "hybrid", to twist a metaphor.

Yes I know The Drive is not exactly a source of record, and have myself been less than complimentary about their editorial standards but it's still an interesting article, albeit with a fair bit of fluff...

Same story in Forbes: https://www.forbes.com/sites/erictegler ... -real/amp/

Also the suggestion that the uninhabited variant might be first to enter development.

serge750
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Re: Joint Helicopter Force

Post by serge750 »

Awsome concepts - very Thunderbird ish !!! 8-)

Would love to see something like this in the UK military - but if HMG wouldn't fork out for ( expensive compared to helicopters ) the V22 cant really see any being bought even though the idea of a faster V22 delivering troops to the beach head ( amongst other things ) would be a useful capability

Ps i did really like the look of the bigger version of the V22 with Quad rotors aswell

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