Joint Helicopter Force

Contains threads on Joint Service equipment of the past, present and future.

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ArmChairCivvy
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Re: Joint Helicopter Force

Post by ArmChairCivvy »

V good, thanks. It pays to cut out the middleman, and hear from the original source.

So all models of Lynx will be gone in the course of 2018 and the successor model will have its uses with SF, in due course.

Also, for the AH fleet, 50 seems to be the given number. But have we heard (when will we get to hear AKA Main Gate) whether new or remanufacture is the way to go?
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If everyone is thinking the same, then someone is not thinking (attributed to Patton)

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Re: Joint Helicopter Force

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Tinman
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Re: Joint Helicopter Force

Post by Tinman »

ArmChairCivvy wrote:V good, thanks. It pays to cut out the middleman, and hear from the original source.

So all models of Lynx will be gone in the course of 2018 and the successor model will have its uses with SF, in due course.

Also, for the AH fleet, 50 seems to be the given number. But have we heard (when will we get to hear AKA Main Gate) whether new or remanufacture is the way to go?

Given that re-build zero hours the airframe it matters less, either way the AH64E will be a cost effective piece of kit.

marktigger
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Re: Joint Helicopter Force

Post by marktigger »

still no word about the replacement of the last Gazelles

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shark bait
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Re: Joint Helicopter Force

Post by shark bait »

out of service date pushed back isnt it?
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ArmChairCivvy
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Re: Joint Helicopter Force

Post by ArmChairCivvy »

The NAO report on through-life costs of the Apache fleet came as a surprise to most (do I need to spell out: the grand total was eye-wateringly high). This time, if we get a more standardised (existing) product, it will be not only cheaper to buy, but also cheaper to support and upgrade. Cfr. these findings: Comparison of initial acquisition costs against in-service costs

Equipment type Costs in “CADM” part of acquisition cycle (1st percentage)

Costs in “ID” part of acquisition cycle (2nd percentage)

Surface ship 40% 60%
Maritime electronics 40% 60%
Rotary wing (B) 20% 80%
Submarine 30–40% 60–70%

Based on 25-year life of the system, and includes crew/system
operator/front line command costs.
- (B) Based on a variant of an existing helicopter. If this were a new design, the development costs would be significantly higher
and would push the costs well toward the CADM 40%, ID 60% split.

In the specific Apache fleet case there were substantial bedding in and training costs, some of which had been ignored in the initial business case. This time around, when the capability won't be new and the manning and organisation for it is already in place, such unknowns (that definitely should have been known unknowns, without being unreasonable) aren't likely to surface.
Ever-lasting truths: Multi-year budgets/ planning by necessity have to address the painful questions; more often than not the Either-Or prevails over Both-And.
If everyone is thinking the same, then someone is not thinking (attributed to Patton)

Tinman
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Re: Joint Helicopter Force

Post by Tinman »

ArmChairCivvy wrote:The NAO report on through-life costs of the Apache fleet came as a surprise to most (do I need to spell out: the grand total was eye-wateringly high). This time, if we get a more standardised (existing) product, it will be not only cheaper to buy, but also cheaper to support and upgrade. Cfr. these findings: Comparison of initial acquisition costs against in-service costs

Equipment type Costs in “CADM” part of acquisition cycle (1st percentage)

Costs in “ID” part of acquisition cycle (2nd percentage)

Surface ship 40% 60%
Maritime electronics 40% 60%
Rotary wing (B) 20% 80%
Submarine 30–40% 60–70%

Based on 25-year life of the system, and includes crew/system
operator/front line command costs.
- (B) Based on a variant of an existing helicopter. If this were a new design, the development costs would be significantly higher
and would push the costs well toward the CADM 40%, ID 60% split.

In the specific Apache fleet case there were substantial bedding in and training costs, some of which had been ignored in the initial business case. This time around, when the capability won't be new and the manning and organisation for it is already in place, such unknowns (that definitely should have been known unknowns, without being unreasonable) aren't likely to surface.
Its not the Airframe, it was the introduction of a capability. Most of the costs would have been similar if the Airframe was a AH1-W/Z.

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ArmChairCivvy
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Re: Joint Helicopter Force

Post by ArmChairCivvy »

:mrgreen:
Tinman wrote:Its not the Airframe, it was the introduction of a capability. Most of the costs would have been similar if the Airframe was a AH1-W/Z.
Is that a translation of what I just said?
Ever-lasting truths: Multi-year budgets/ planning by necessity have to address the painful questions; more often than not the Either-Or prevails over Both-And.
If everyone is thinking the same, then someone is not thinking (attributed to Patton)

Tinman
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Re: Joint Helicopter Force

Post by Tinman »

ArmChairCivvy wrote::mrgreen:
Tinman wrote:Its not the Airframe, it was the introduction of a capability. Most of the costs would have been similar if the Airframe was a AH1-W/Z.
Is that a translation of what I just said?
Without the razzle, dazzle :geek:

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Re: Joint Helicopter Force

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SKB
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Re: Joint Helicopter Force

Post by SKB »

Army helicopter pilots quit in overpayment row

Fifteen of the Army's most experienced helicopter pilots quit in a dispute over a demand they repay wages given to them in error, documents have revealed.

A freedom of information request showed £829,000 in overpayments had been made to 210 pilots between 2007 and 2013, because of the administrative mistake.

Some aircrew had queried their rates but been assured they were correct.

The Army said it was considering the debts owed by serving and retired pilots on a "case-by-case basis".

More: http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-35842588

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Re: Joint Helicopter Force

Post by arfah »

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marktigger
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Re: Joint Helicopter Force

Post by marktigger »

makes sense though the ISTAR bde would be another good place for them

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whitelancer
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Re: Joint Helicopter Force

Post by whitelancer »

Wouldn't taking them off the artillery and giving them to the AAC be a sensible option?

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Re: Joint Helicopter Force

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The Armchair Soldier
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Re: Joint Helicopter Force

Post by The Armchair Soldier »

Image

Image

Image
An 18(B) Sqn Chinook leads two Apache helicopters from 4 Regt AAC into the Mojave desert, disappearing off into the bright blue Californian sky.

The serene departure however is a mirage for the demanding nature of the environment that awaits.

Jointly, the capabilities of Royal Air Force, the Army Air Corps and the Royal Marines merge to achieve the comms task ahead.

[...]

Exercise Black Alligator forms part of the multi-environment training package that will see the men of 40 Cdo take over the nation’s high-readiness Lead Commando Group – a contingency force able to deploy anywhere in the world at very short notice.

Photographs by Cpl Rob Travis and SAC Nicholas Egan, RAF Odiham.

marktigger
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Re: Joint Helicopter Force

Post by marktigger »

hmmm planning going somewhere hot and sandy?

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ArmChairCivvy
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Re: Joint Helicopter Force

Post by ArmChairCivvy »

Go and find every Chinook (OK, will have to look in RAF), every Wildcat (by now summing up to 118?) and add in the Merlins for RM.

And what do you get? The Afghan helicopter force:
" The first of a planned 159 U.S.-made UH-60 Black Hawk helicopters arrived on Tuesday to start replacing Russian-made Mi-17 helicopters. Reuters report (Reminder from Defence One: the 2018 NDAA includes some $5 billion in assistance to Afghan security forces, including purchases like these.)
Ever-lasting truths: Multi-year budgets/ planning by necessity have to address the painful questions; more often than not the Either-Or prevails over Both-And.
If everyone is thinking the same, then someone is not thinking (attributed to Patton)

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Halidon
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Re: Joint Helicopter Force

Post by Halidon »

UK trying to kick the European rotary-wing industry into gear, as a senior Army officer floats signing onto the US FVL program as an option if they don't move forward.

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ArmChairCivvy
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Re: Joint Helicopter Force

Post by ArmChairCivvy »

Halidon wrote:a senior Army officer floats signing onto the US FVL program as an option if they don't move forward.
from the linked article
"Bell Helicopter developing its V-280 Valor tiltrotor and a combined Sikorsky-Boeing team working on the SB-1 Defiant compound rotorcraft.

... [could] deliver a new helicopter in the mid-2030s.

But recent statements from the US Army have hinted that a lighter helicopter for the armed scout mission may become the priority."

Funnily enough, we have that faster, lighter helicopter, but do not want to arm it?
- precision guided (cheap!) rockets can be launched from ground platforms and still have an adequate range
- but their precision guidance needs designators
Ever-lasting truths: Multi-year budgets/ planning by necessity have to address the painful questions; more often than not the Either-Or prevails over Both-And.
If everyone is thinking the same, then someone is not thinking (attributed to Patton)

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shark bait
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Re: Joint Helicopter Force

Post by shark bait »

Should definitely sign up to FVL, its a no brainier if the Naval version becomes reality.
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Dahedd
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Re: Joint Helicopter Force

Post by Dahedd »

You have to say that the SB1 Defiant looks amazing.

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Re: Joint Helicopter Force

Post by Lord Jim »

Both US platforms should be definite for at least the SF if not to replace the Wildcats in the AAC and supplement the Apache Guardians. If the keep moving forward and navalised version able to operate of warships to insert SF would be perfect for the FAA and give them a platform able to escort the RM Merlins. Maybe we should enquire if they would like an international partner in the development programme. Another entry in my fantasy MDP list.

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shark bait
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Re: Joint Helicopter Force

Post by shark bait »


Jumping threads......
tempest414 wrote:for me this where the rafs puma replacement comes in it must be able to be deployed aboard a carrier to allow the navy helicopters to be spread across the fleet
Yes. I'll suggest any helicopter purchased in the future should have a maritime requirement in the specification.
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