Type 23 Frigate (Duke Class) (RN) [News Only]

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Digger22
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Re: Type 23 Frigate (Duke Class) (RN) [News Only]

Post by Digger22 »

Didn't Spot the typo, bloody auto correct.

Should have been 'Surface' fleet.

Anyway a reduction in surface fleet, while aspiring to a bigger fleet shows poor historic planning.

What do we have presently?

10 ish deployable ships, each with its own unique set of issues.

Shocking.

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Re: Type 23 Frigate (Duke Class) (RN) [News Only]

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Digger22
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Re: Type 23 Frigate (Duke Class) (RN) [News Only]

Post by Digger22 »

Checkout Porthminster beach webcam NOW.
Can't make out the name or pennant number, but a T23 is anchored just off St Ives. I think it's Westminster?

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Re: Type 23 Frigate (Duke Class) (RN) [News Only]

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Re: Type 23 Frigate (Duke Class) (RN) [News Only]

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Seen this on Gabs twitter. Nice bit of defence for the Gulf.
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Re: Type 23 Frigate (Duke Class) (RN) [News Only]

Post by SW1 »

A real success for the complex weapons teams working on it. Wonder if the surface to surface capability is also applicable to the land environment?


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Re: Type 23 Frigate (Duke Class) (RN) [News Only]

Post by Tempest414 »

Looks like a great combo a IH AAW frigate and a type 23 ASW frigate working together

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Re: Type 23 Frigate (Duke Class) (RN) [News Only]

Post by Digger22 »

I would like to see Monmouth sent for LIFEX. If we're serious about increased Hull numbers, this would help untill more New builds ramp up.

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Re: Type 23 Frigate (Duke Class) (RN) [News Only]

Post by wargame_insomniac »

Digger22 wrote: 07 Mar 2022, 19:12 I would like to see Monmouth sent for LIFEX. If we're serious about increased Hull numbers, this would help untill more New builds ramp up.
HMS Monmouth has apparently been stripped of weapons and sensors and her crew reallocated to HMS Montrose as part of their split shift advance deployment to Bahrain.

So it might be expensive or difficult to reinstate Monmouth. However I definitely think that Montrose should be kept in service for longer and not retired early. Even if Montrose kept in uk waters after tour to Bahrain has been concluded.

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Re: Type 23 Frigate (Duke Class) (RN) [News Only]

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Re: Type 23 Frigate (Duke Class) (RN) [News Only]

Post by wargame_insomniac »

Looks like HMS Somerset has finished her LIFEX refit:


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Re: Type 23 Frigate (Duke Class) (RN) [News Only]

Post by wargame_insomniac »

Yes - direct confirmation from the ship herself:



Will be great to get another ASW escort back operational once HMS Somerst has finished post-refit trials. By my count just three remaining T23 to finish their LIFEX refits - especially if RN can get the remaining 5*T45 through their PIP Refits, then we should start having increasing escort numbers at a time when we need it most given recent events.

I still hope that HMS Montrose's forthcoming early retirement is postponed / cancelled though, assuming that RN has sufficent crew to keep in active service.

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Re: Type 23 Frigate (Duke Class) (RN) [News Only]

Post by donald_of_tokyo »

Montrose due to return to the UK this year for decommissioning to be replaced in Gulf by HMS LANCASTER


Now the wiki's Type-23 "ship" section's table is impressive and informative (ref 1). It says, HMS Montrose has finished here LIFEX on July 2017. Next year, it is only 6 years after coming back from refit. Still very new. I guess she will be exported.

HMS Argyle has ended her LIFEX on Feb 2017, so if her decommissioned is at 2025 (when both T26hull1 and T31 hull1 to be fully crewed) or 2027 (when both T26hull1 and T31 hull1 to be in service), it is 8 and 10 years from her LIFEX. Much longer than many of the T23GPs, but still young... She will be sold/exported, or kept to be cannibalized to improve availability of other T23s (may be the latter?? Just guess).



ref1: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Type_23_frigate

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Re: Type 23 Frigate (Duke Class) (RN) [News Only]

Post by Poiuytrewq »

donald_of_tokyo wrote: 23 Apr 2022, 02:55 Montrose due to return to the UK this year for decommissioning……Still very new. I guess she will be exported.
To be replaced by what? Absolutely nothing. Yet another cut.

Given the size of the Royal Navy’s escort fleet, the amount of escorts going through deep refit and the timescale before the T31/T26 actually commission this cut is completely indefensible.

What happened to if the security picture changes the budget changes?

On the bright side we can look forward to lots of jam tomorrow….

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Re: Type 23 Frigate (Duke Class) (RN) [News Only]

Post by donald_of_tokyo »

Poiuytrewq wrote: 23 Apr 2022, 10:04
donald_of_tokyo wrote: 23 Apr 2022, 02:55 Montrose due to return to the UK this year for decommissioning……Still very new. I guess she will be exported.
To be replaced by what? Absolutely nothing. Yet another cut.

Given the size of the Royal Navy’s escort fleet, the amount of escorts going through deep refit and the timescale before the T31/T26 actually commission this cut is completely indefensible.

What happened to if the security picture changes the budget changes?

On the bright side we can look forward to lots of jam tomorrow….
I understand your point, but this is not new. HMS Montrose is one of the two Frigates to be retired early, along with HMS Monmouth, to save money/resource. 1st-SL stated this move "does not affect the RN escort fleet's readiness".

I understand it means, there are other reasons which prevent RN, to anyway operate her even if up-keeped next year. I'm afraid it is man-power (of skilled engineer, not new-comers)?. There are 4 T23s now in LIFEX, Iron Duke (From January 2019), Somerset (From November 2018), Sutherland (From December 2020), and St Albans (From July 2019). I guess the manpower of Montrose will move to Somerset or Iron Duke, to re-activate them.

Also, from 2025, both T31-hull1 and T26-hull1 need to be fully manned, requiring ~250 crews in total, even yet to be commissioned.

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Re: Type 23 Frigate (Duke Class) (RN) [News Only]

Post by Poiuytrewq »

donald_of_tokyo wrote: 23 Apr 2022, 13:16 I understand your point, but this is not new.
Completely agree with everything you have written and I fully understand that this was detailed in the integrated review but it’s becoming difficult to see how RN is going to meet its commitments.

Operating two CVF’s concurrently along with two LRG’s, protecting the CASD, fulfilling the UK’s NATO commitments and securing the High North whilst also tilting to the east with only 5 or 6 escorts available at any one time is rapidly looking like a strategy that is as mad as a box of frogs.

Its certainly a strategy with little margin for error and an over reliance on Allies whose participation simply cannot be assured in a serious crisis.
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Re: Type 23 Frigate (Duke Class) (RN) [News Only]

Post by Repulse »

Any dreams of independent frigate escorted LRGs will need to be put on hold for at least a decade. All escorts are needed for CASD, the two CSGs and covering the North Atlantic/ Home waters as best they can.

Personally, I would be looking at adding additional defence weapons to the two Albions and OPVs to minimise the gap.
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Re: Type 23 Frigate (Duke Class) (RN) [News Only]

Post by wargame_insomniac »

donald_of_tokyo wrote: 23 Apr 2022, 13:16
Poiuytrewq wrote: 23 Apr 2022, 10:04
donald_of_tokyo wrote: 23 Apr 2022, 02:55 Montrose due to return to the UK this year for decommissioning……Still very new. I guess she will be exported.
To be replaced by what? Absolutely nothing. Yet another cut.

Given the size of the Royal Navy’s escort fleet, the amount of escorts going through deep refit and the timescale before the T31/T26 actually commission this cut is completely indefensible.

What happened to if the security picture changes the budget changes?

On the bright side we can look forward to lots of jam tomorrow….
I understand your point, but this is not new. HMS Montrose is one of the two Frigates to be retired early, along with HMS Monmouth, to save money/resource. 1st-SL stated this move "does not affect the RN escort fleet's readiness".

I understand it means, there are other reasons which prevent RN, to anyway operate her even if up-keeped next year. I'm afraid it is man-power (of skilled engineer, not new-comers)?. There are 4 T23s now in LIFEX, Iron Duke (From January 2019), Somerset (From November 2018), Sutherland (From December 2020), and St Albans (From July 2019). I guess the manpower of Montrose will move to Somerset or Iron Duke, to re-activate them.

Also, from 2025, both T31-hull1 and T26-hull1 need to be fully manned, requiring ~250 crews in total, even yet to be commissioned.
The difference between Monmouth and Montrose is that the former had been taken out of actice service in 2019 and has since been decommissioned and apparently stripped of weapons and sensors and laid up, whilst the latter is still in active service. Plus Monmouth's crew had been mainly transferred to Montrose as her staboard crew whilst forward deployed to the Persian Gulf. So of the two ships, it should be a lot cheaper to keep Montrose operational and MOD would get smaller "cost savings" from scrapping Montrose in 2022.

So if you need to transfer the crews in 2025, assuming that ither Glasgow and/or Venturer even get finished on time, then IMO should keep Montrose operational for a further 3 years and decommission her once and only once her replacement was ready for service.

We have enjoyed the peace dividend from end of Cold War with capability cuts for 3 decades since the fall of the Soviet Union. We should nt be accepting of any further capability custs now defence once more should be a priority.
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Re: Type 23 Frigate (Duke Class) (RN) [News Only]

Post by donald_of_tokyo »

wargame_insomniac wrote: 23 Apr 2022, 18:00
donald_of_tokyo wrote: 23 Apr 2022, 13:16 ... I understand it means, there are other reasons which prevent RN, to anyway operate her even if up-keeped next year. I'm afraid it is man-power (of skilled engineer, not new-comers)?. There are 4 T23s now in LIFEX, Iron Duke (From January 2019), Somerset (From November 2018), Sutherland (From December 2020), and St Albans (From July 2019). I guess the manpower of Montrose will move to Somerset or Iron Duke, to re-activate them.

Also, from 2025, both T31-hull1 and T26-hull1 need to be fully manned, requiring ~250 crews in total, even yet to be commissioned.
... So if you need to transfer the crews in 2025, assuming that ither Glasgow and/or Venturer even get finished on time, then IMO should keep Montrose operational for a further 3 years and decommission her once and only once her replacement was ready for service.

We have enjoyed the peace dividend from end of Cold War with capability cuts for 3 decades since the fall of the Soviet Union. We should nt be accepting of any further capability custs now defence once more should be a priority.
I guess it is NOT the T31-hull1 and T26-hull1 needing full crew by 2025, but the "4 more T23's coming back from LIFEX soon". What if keeping Montrose just means pushing Iron Duke or Somerset or Sutherland or St Albans kept in extended-readiness?

Another idea will be to keep Montrose in mothball, as a "parts reserve" = cannibalize. As stated in Save the Royal Navy article, lack of spare parts is a big problem now, and is increasing the maintenance period length of escorts. Having a one full-set of spare-parts might significantly contribute to improving the effectiveness of remaining escorts.

Looking from "keeping 19-escorts", cutting 2 looks like a big drow-back. But, I have another point of view that, RN after 2010 NEVER HAD escorts availability as expected from "19 escorts saga". "Improving the efficiency of assets currently ready" might be more important than "increasing the apparent number of escorts".

At least, having less than 19 escorts, whiles stating now RN has better escort availability than a few years ago (1st SL comment, as I understand) is much better than having 19 escorts on paper even with less availability. At least, people notices the shortage of escorts. Apparent cut is better than Stealth cut, I think.

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Re: Type 23 Frigate (Duke Class) (RN) [News Only]

Post by Repulse »

donald_of_tokyo wrote: 24 Apr 2022, 07:49 At least, having less than 19 escorts, whiles stating now RN has better escort availability than a few years ago (1st SL comment, as I understand) is much better than having 19 escorts on paper even with less availability. At least, people notices the shortage of escorts. Apparent cut is better than Stealth cut, I think.
I would agree, plus let’s not forget we have four OPVs deployed globally that weren’t there a few years ago (I’m excluding FIPS).

Numbers are important, but as you point out wall chart numbers (number of hulls) are pretty, but the number of serviceable/trained/equipped ships are more important. What’s more Ukraine has been a timely reminder that the unsexy world of logistics are equally important.

Given that at sea the biggest threat to the UK from Russia is from below the sea, I would even top a further T23 if it meant that the other two GP ships got tails.

Longer term I also believe we should get carried away with GP ships, we need ships that can fight tier one foes, and that means tier one AAW, ASW and ASuW; we should focus on this and if needed keep using OPVs for GP roles.
”We have no eternal allies, and we have no perpetual enemies. Our interests are eternal and perpetual, and those interests it is our duty to follow." - Lord Palmerston

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Re: Type 23 Frigate (Duke Class) (RN) [News Only]

Post by wargame_insomniac »

donald_of_tokyo wrote: 24 Apr 2022, 07:49
wargame_insomniac wrote: 23 Apr 2022, 18:00
donald_of_tokyo wrote: 23 Apr 2022, 13:16 ... I understand it means, there are other reasons which prevent RN, to anyway operate her even if up-keeped next year. I'm afraid it is man-power (of skilled engineer, not new-comers)?. There are 4 T23s now in LIFEX, Iron Duke (From January 2019), Somerset (From November 2018), Sutherland (From December 2020), and St Albans (From July 2019). I guess the manpower of Montrose will move to Somerset or Iron Duke, to re-activate them.

Also, from 2025, both T31-hull1 and T26-hull1 need to be fully manned, requiring ~250 crews in total, even yet to be commissioned.
... So if you need to transfer the crews in 2025, assuming that ither Glasgow and/or Venturer even get finished on time, then IMO should keep Montrose operational for a further 3 years and decommission her once and only once her replacement was ready for service.

We have enjoyed the peace dividend from end of Cold War with capability cuts for 3 decades since the fall of the Soviet Union. We should nt be accepting of any further capability custs now defence once more should be a priority.
I guess it is NOT the T31-hull1 and T26-hull1 needing full crew by 2025, but the "4 more T23's coming back from LIFEX soon". What if keeping Montrose just means pushing Iron Duke or Somerset or Sutherland or St Albans kept in extended-readiness?

Another idea will be to keep Montrose in mothball, as a "parts reserve" = cannibalize. As stated in Save the Royal Navy article, lack of spare parts is a big problem now, and is increasing the maintenance period length of escorts. Having a one full-set of spare-parts might significantly contribute to improving the effectiveness of remaining escorts.

Looking from "keeping 19-escorts", cutting 2 looks like a big drow-back. But, I have another point of view that, RN after 2010 NEVER HAD escorts availability as expected from "19 escorts saga". "Improving the efficiency of assets currently ready" might be more important than "increasing the apparent number of escorts".

At least, having less than 19 escorts, whiles stating now RN has better escort availability than a few years ago (1st SL comment, as I understand) is much better than having 19 escorts on paper even with less availability. At least, people notices the shortage of escorts. Apparent cut is better than Stealth cut, I think.
Fair point re 4 T23's finishing LIFEX.

Re spare parts, have you got a link to that Save the Royal Navy article, as could do with learning more on that subject.

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Re: Type 23 Frigate (Duke Class) (RN) [News Only]

Post by donald_of_tokyo »

wargame_insomniac wrote: 24 Apr 2022, 08:50Fair point re 4 T23's finishing LIFEX.

Re spare parts, have you got a link to that Save the Royal Navy article, as could do with learning more on that subject.
Thanks. This is the article.

https://www.navylookout.com/how-can-few ... avy-fleet/
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Re: Type 23 Frigate (Duke Class) (RN) [News Only]

Post by donald_of_tokyo »

HMS Argyll going into refit, while her crew will be moving to Iron duke, just coming out of LIFEX.

"Hand to mouth", looks like.



Looking this article, it looks like HMS Argyll is virtually "replacing" HMS Montrose's position. And, HMS Montose's crew will move to HMS St Albans in due course, when she decommissions next year? (not sure).

https://www.navylookout.com/progress-re ... -frigates/
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Re: Type 23 Frigate (Duke Class) (RN) [News Only]

Post by wargame_insomniac »

donald_of_tokyo wrote: 17 May 2022, 15:50 HMS Argyll going into refit, while her crew will be moving to Iron duke, just coming out of LIFEX.

"Hand to mouth", looks like.



Looking this article, it looks like HMS Argyll is virtually "replacing" HMS Montrose's position. And, HMS Montose's crew will move to HMS St Albans in due course, when she decommissions next year? (not sure).

https://www.navylookout.com/progress-re ... -frigates/
Good to see another T23 finishing LIFEX. As well as St Albans that you mentioned, I think that will just leave Sutherland as the last two remaining T23's in LIFEX.

I presume Argyll's refit is a shorter time out of water. It would make sense if Argyll post refit replaces Montrose in the Persian Gulf, keeping the T23 ASW frigates for CASD / TAPS / FRE / CSG.
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