Type 23 Frigate (Duke Class) (RN) [News Only]

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Re: Type 23 Frigate (Duke Class) (RN) [News Only]

Post by Poiuytrewq »

Repulse wrote: 06 Nov 2022, 08:12
donald_of_tokyo wrote: 06 Nov 2022, 02:48 As the crew of Montrose will fill the T23 coming back fromLIFEX, your argument also states number of active escorts will not decrease. As such I think RN priority is more on man power, especially the retention rate.

Buying ammo comes the next.

T32 discussion must be terminated, I think. Priority is far far below.
Whilst I agree that manpower and stockpiles need to be a focus, it cannot be at the expense of brining on the T32.

Why? Because it is designed to play a needed and unique role in MCM and amphibious operations, plus could alleviate manpower issues with a lower crew requirement. If you want to focus funds and manpower kill the “make up numbers” T31, but not the T32.
If HMG/MoD/RN want or need more escorts then HMG will have to fund the crews to operate them.

I don’t think anyone is suggesting that another 5 Frigates are going to be commissioned without identifying beforehand what the crews are coming from.
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Re: Type 23 Frigate (Duke Class) (RN) [News Only]

Post by donald_of_tokyo »

Repulse wrote: 06 Nov 2022, 08:12...
Whilst I agree that manpower and stockpiles need to be a focus, it cannot be at the expense of brining on the T32.

Why? Because it is designed to play a needed and unique role in MCM and amphibious operations, plus could alleviate manpower issues with a lower crew requirement. If you want to focus funds and manpower kill the “make up numbers” T31, but not the T32.
Not convinced. If it is MCM and amphibious operations, PSV-like cheap ship with low crew can do it, escorted by T31. There is not much need to make it an escort.

Up-arming T31 to "NATO light frigate level" is easy. Say, as much as Nansen-class and PPA-class. Or, as much as Halifax-class, and Dutch M-class (in Dutch, Belgium and Portogal navies) in the past, or European Patrol Corvette in future.

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Re: Type 23 Frigate (Duke Class) (RN) [News Only]

Post by donald_of_tokyo »

Poiuytrewq wrote: 06 Nov 2022, 09:55If HMG/MoD/RN want or need more escorts then HMG will have to fund the crews to operate them.

I don’t think anyone is suggesting that another 5 Frigates are going to be commissioned without identifying beforehand what the crews are coming from.
Then, why not do it from now? How about much higher salary for higher retention rate? Of course, it costs a lot and money must be found. If there is no such money for a moment, there is of course zero money for T32. This is what I am saying.

By replacing T23s, the frigate fleet made of T31 and T26 will have a very high availability rate, thanks to its "newness". This will eat-out whole crew available now. Very good, because RN will have more escorts available than now. But, there will be not redundant crew there. If there be some more man-power, some of T31 and T26 can be double-crewed, as now done with KIPION T23s, to further increase the availability.

Not sure from where need for "more T32" can come...

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Re: Type 23 Frigate (Duke Class) (RN) [News Only]

Post by Poiuytrewq »

Moved across

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Re: Type 23 Frigate (Duke Class) (RN) [News Only]

Post by donald_of_tokyo »

HMS Montrose, intensive 4 years of operation KIPION.

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Re: Type 23 Frigate (Duke Class) (RN) [News Only]

Post by wargame_insomniac »

donald_of_tokyo wrote: 15 Nov 2022, 15:42 HMS Montrose, intensive 4 years of operation KIPION.

From some of the comments in both T26 and T31 threads, it would seem that the considerd opinion is that the RN does not need General Purpose Frigayes in this new era of peer or near-peer level conflict. Apparently the RN no longer needs to assist our allies in patrolling the major Global shipping lanes (upon which the UK depends for both imports & exports), and take part in anti-piracy and drug smuggling interdiction.....

Montrose has been run hard and contributed much in tjose 4 years, with record catches of drug smuggling hauls. I have expressed before that in my opinion it is a shame that RN crew retention / recruitment is so poor that we need Montrose's crew to cover the latest T23 coming out of LIFEX (Iron Duke?), as I beleive it would have been great if we could have used Montrose, even just in UK waters.

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Re: Type 23 Frigate (Duke Class) (RN) [News Only]

Post by Ron5 »

wargame_insomniac wrote: 15 Nov 2022, 21:51 RN crew retention / recruitment is so poor
Ya think that might have something to do with running on ships way past their sell by date?

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Re: Type 23 Frigate (Duke Class) (RN) [News Only]

Post by tomuk »

Ron5 wrote: 17 Nov 2022, 14:06
wargame_insomniac wrote: 15 Nov 2022, 21:51 RN crew retention / recruitment is so poor
Ya think that might have something to do with running on ships way past their sell by date?
Not really the conditions on board current ships isn't terrible by any means. I think a more important factor is the long and unpredictable deployments due to the lack of ships. The long deployments like Montrose with a regular rotated crew are an antidote to that.
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Re: Type 23 Frigate (Duke Class) (RN) [News Only]

Post by danialgill »

excellent !!

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Re: Type 23 Frigate (Duke Class) (RN) [News Only]

Post by donald_of_tokyo »

Very nice shot!

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Re: Type 23 Frigate (Duke Class) (RN) [News Only]

Post by SKB »


(Forces News) 2nd December 2022
HMS Kent has arrived back at Portsmouth, her home port after a deployment that saw her part of the Carrier Strike Group alongside HMS Queen Elizabeth. Tim Cooper joined families of the crew to see her arrive home in time for Christmas.

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Re: Type 23 Frigate (Duke Class) (RN) [News Only]

Post by donald_of_tokyo »

So, HMS Montrose is coming back, to be decommissioned next year. What will be the fate of her?

Shall she better be used as "parts provider"?
- will her 2x SeaCeptor datalink, 4x Launch Management Boxes will be reused for T31? (It will provide datalink for 1 T31 hull, and LMS for 4 (with 12 CAMM) or 2 (with 24 CAMM) T31 hulls.)
- all the other "parts" shall provide important "parts reserve" for remaining T23, which will improve their availability.

Shall she better be sold for export?
- Brazil? Chili?
- increasing the "remaining T23 numbers active world-wide" will improve the availability of the remaining T23ASWs in RN.

Are there any information?


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Re: Type 23 Frigate (Duke Class) (RN) [News Only]

Post by Tempest414 »

much better over the next 2 years that she is held in extended readiness to cover off any unforeseen hick ups and then her CAMM LMS's and DL's used to give type 31 24 CAMM plus her Radar system taken and made ready for Type 26 No-4 if that is what is going to happen

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Re: Type 23 Frigate (Duke Class) (RN) [News Only]

Post by donald_of_tokyo »

Tempest414 wrote: 11 Dec 2022, 09:29 much better over the next 2 years that she is held in extended readiness to cover off any unforeseen hick ups and then her CAMM LMS's and DL's used to give type 31 24 CAMM plus her Radar system taken and made ready for Type 26 No-4 if that is what is going to happen
That's true only if both the T26 hull4 and all T31 are not "waiting for" HMS Montroses' equipment gears. Also, once put in extended readiness, it will require a few tens - a hundred million GBP and nearly an year to re-activate her. As there will be T23 GP decommissioning every year from now, may be putting one in extended readiness for 1 year each could be an option. But, it will negate the export probability (which I agree is not so high), and also degrade the equipment gears onboard, and could cost more to refurbish them.

As HMS Montrose is the first LIFEX-T23GP to be decommissioned, anyway her fate is interesting.
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Re: Type 23 Frigate (Duke Class) (RN) [News Only]

Post by Tempest414 »

The way I see it is the CAMM kit from the first 2 Type 23's to go can go to the first 4 type 31's as type 26 No-4 is 6 years away however the radar system can be taken and refurbished ready for ship T-26 No-4 as type 31 has another system

However this being said the same CAMM system could also go to the first 4 T-45's to get CAMM

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Re: Type 23 Frigate (Duke Class) (RN) [News Only]

Post by wargame_insomniac »

We are going to be playing some maritime pass the parcel as remaining T23 finish LIFEX and the various T45 go into and out of PIP. I have seen it described as "Operation Baton (T23)".
-When Monmouth was decommissioned much of her crew were moved to Somerset when she finished LIFEX.
-When Argyll went in refit, her crew were moved to Iron Duke when she finished LIFEX.
-So presumably when Montrose is decommissioned, her crew will move to St Albans when she finshes LIFEX.

Which is a shame because I would love Montrose to be retained for service even in home waters. With the increasing number of Russian ships in North Sea and English Channel, we need ships to be able to shadow them and I would rather a Frigate does that than say a River Batch 1.

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Re: Type 23 Frigate (Duke Class) (RN) [News Only]

Post by serge750 »

donald_of_tokyo wrote: 11 Dec 2022, 11:27
Tempest414 wrote: 11 Dec 2022, 09:29 much better over the next 2 years that she is held in extended readiness to cover off any unforeseen hick ups and then her CAMM LMS's and DL's used to give type 31 24 CAMM plus her Radar system taken and made ready for Type 26 No-4 if that is what is going to happen
That's true only if both the T26 hull4 and all T31 are not "waiting for" HMS Montroses' equipment gears. Also, once put in extended readiness, it will require a few tens - a hundred million GBP and nearly an year to re-activate her. As there will be T23 GP decommissioning every year from now, may be putting one in extended readiness for 1 year each could be an option. But, it will negate the export probability (which I agree is not so high), and also degrade the equipment gears onboard, and could cost more to refurbish them.

As HMS Montrose is the first LIFEX-T23GP to be decommissioned, anyway her fate is interesting.
Maybe if there are no bidders to buy her then keep her till the next T23 decomlsions - then repeat....
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Re: Type 23 Frigate (Duke Class) (RN) [News Only]

Post by Poiuytrewq »

All decommissioned T23s should be gifted to friendly nations for the cost of a refit in a UK yard with the commitment that the same friendly nation will do the friendly thing and purchase a T31 or OPV at a later date :D

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Re: Type 23 Frigate (Duke Class) (RN) [News Only]

Post by tomuk »

Stripping her and the other T23s for SeaCeptor and Artisan parts is just pointless penny pinching. Any recovered equipment will need refurbishing anyway to it bring to as new if not higher current standard i.e. Artisan 300 and you will have a negative effect on the supply chain by not buying more new equipment.

The only benefit I can see for stripping would be for spares of any no longer manufactured\supported items to keep other T23s going in the short term.

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Re: Type 23 Frigate (Duke Class) (RN) [News Only]

Post by Tempest414 »

tomuk wrote: 11 Dec 2022, 23:08 Stripping her and the other T23s for SeaCeptor and Artisan parts is just pointless penny pinching. Any recovered equipment will need refurbishing anyway to it bring to as new if not higher current standard i.e. Artisan 300 and you will have a negative effect on the supply chain by not buying more new equipment.

The only benefit I can see for stripping would be for spares of any no longer manufactured\supported items to keep other T23s going in the short term.
I agree mostly but we still don't know if the last 5 T-26's are getting hand me down radars or not

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Re: Type 23 Frigate (Duke Class) (RN) [News Only]

Post by donald_of_tokyo »

tomuk wrote: 11 Dec 2022, 23:08The only benefit I can see for stripping would be for spares of any no longer manufactured\supported items to keep other T23s going in the short term.
I understand this is exactly what is "one of the most" important things in RN, to continue supporting aging T23s. We all know RN is sometimes "caniballizing" an equipment from other assets. Keeping a hull as a "reserved parts shop" is, I think, very important in RN now.

However, selling her and keep the active T23 hull number as much as possible will also help increasing the "availability" of T23 in mid/far-future, because industry will continue supporting those old equipment.


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Re: Type 23 Frigate (Duke Class) (RN) [News Only]

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Re: Type 23 Frigate (Duke Class) (RN) [News Only]

Post by shark bait »

That is extraordinarily quick by MOD standards!
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Re: Type 23 Frigate (Duke Class) (RN) [News Only]

Post by Jdam »

They did say 2023 for NSM but lets not get our hopes up there is a difference between removing the mounts for Harpoon and installing the NSM.

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