Ukrainian Forces

News and discussion threads on defence in other parts of the world.
TheLoneRanger
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Re: Ukrainian Forces

Post by TheLoneRanger »

Given the range and depth of sanctions now on Russia and those coming - it is questionable how much of the terrority it has managed to occupy it will be allowed to hold onto in return for the removal of sanctions.

The sanctions on the Central Bank, and Swift will hurt a lot and the Russians would want to get rid of them asap - but what can they offer in return for them to be removed ?

mr.fred
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Re: Ukrainian Forces

Post by mr.fred »

TheLoneRanger wrote: 27 Feb 2022, 15:33 but what can they offer in return for them to be removed ?
Leave Ukraine, including Crimea, Donetsk and Luhansk?

TheLoneRanger
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Re: Ukrainian Forces

Post by TheLoneRanger »

mr.fred wrote: 27 Feb 2022, 15:38
TheLoneRanger wrote: 27 Feb 2022, 15:33 but what can they offer in return for them to be removed ?
Leave Ukraine, including Crimea, Donetsk and Luhansk?
Honestly - I think that will be it. They will have to leave everything - well the negotiations will start from that position.

wargame_insomniac
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Re: Ukrainian Forces

Post by wargame_insomniac »

TheLoneRanger wrote: 27 Feb 2022, 16:03
mr.fred wrote: 27 Feb 2022, 15:38
TheLoneRanger wrote: 27 Feb 2022, 15:33 but what can they offer in return for them to be removed ?
Leave Ukraine, including Crimea, Donetsk and Luhansk?
Honestly - I think that will be it. They will have to leave everything.
Putin will not like that!! That will be a total climbdown. Normally I would think that would be the end of him, but he has eliminated any potential political opposition.

dmereifield
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Re: Ukrainian Forces

Post by dmereifield »

wargame_insomniac wrote: 27 Feb 2022, 16:15
TheLoneRanger wrote: 27 Feb 2022, 16:03
mr.fred wrote: 27 Feb 2022, 15:38
TheLoneRanger wrote: 27 Feb 2022, 15:33 but what can they offer in return for them to be removed ?
Leave Ukraine, including Crimea, Donetsk and Luhansk?
Honestly - I think that will be it. They will have to leave everything.
Putin will not like that!! That will be a total climbdown. Normally I would think that would be the end of him, but he has eliminated any potential political opposition.
Putin will never accept that, he wants everything up to the Dnipro, and regime change in Kyiv. The best the Ukrainian Government could hope for (and I can't see Putin agreeing to this) is losing only the Doneysk and Luthansk regions (as well as Crimea). What's the landing zone between the two positions?
I can't see one

SW1
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Re: Ukrainian Forces

Post by SW1 »

UN peacekeeping/monitor force in the east another version of Minsk, Ukraine declare neutrality something like Switzerland. Might allow all to back down

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ArmChairCivvy
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Re: Ukrainian Forces

Post by ArmChairCivvy »

Minsk3, anyone?

Control of borders was what made M2 inoperable. Declare the original rebel areas lichtensteins, in full economic union with Russia. But have border control and full customs operated by Ukraine on the other border; and no constitutional veto on anything in the Parliament (proportional representation)
- well, that's them out of the way. Then comes the question about the flavour of neutrality (if any)
Ever-lasting truths: Multi-year budgets/ planning by necessity have to address the painful questions; more often than not the Either-Or prevails over Both-And.
If everyone is thinking the same, then someone is not thinking (attributed to Patton)

dmereifield
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Re: Ukrainian Forces

Post by dmereifield »

ArmChairCivvy wrote: 27 Feb 2022, 17:35 Minsk3, anyone?

Control of borders was what made M2 inoperable. Declare the original rebel areas lichtensteins, in full economic union with Russia. But have border control and full customs operated by Ukraine on the other border; and no constitutional veto on anything in the Parliament (proportional representation)
- well, that's them out of the way. Then comes the question about the flavour of neutrality (if any)
You think Putin would go for that???? No way

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ArmChairCivvy
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Re: Ukrainian Forces

Post by ArmChairCivvy »

It is only a matter of gentle :angel: persuasion.

A measure of Putin’s (lack of confidence+shock at Western opposition=) panic is the announcement of Russia’s nuclear forces having been put on a heightened alert.
Ever-lasting truths: Multi-year budgets/ planning by necessity have to address the painful questions; more often than not the Either-Or prevails over Both-And.
If everyone is thinking the same, then someone is not thinking (attributed to Patton)

Lord Jim
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Re: Ukrainian Forces

Post by Lord Jim »

Ukraine has done the best it can and far better than many thought they could. The bulk of its combat power was deployed in the east in and around the disputed regions. They also had troops opposite the Crimea and this left little frontline strength to cover the north and North eastern borders with both Russia and Belorussia. The strike at Kyiv has been able to advance so rapidly as it happens to be using one of the main motorways in Ukraine. Fighting in the cities is exactly what the Ukrainians should do to bog down the Russians. The latter are bound to get impatient and will start using heavy artillery on residential areas which will unfortunately increase to chance of civilian casualties, bt it will also further isolate Russia in the eyes of the world, even China. It will also most likely push Putin into a corner as he knows if he fails in Ukraine he will lose the support of the Military amongst others and will probably be on the way out, though where he will retire to is anyone's guess. He might even end up having a serious "Accident".

Caribbean
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Re: Ukrainian Forces

Post by Caribbean »

Lord Jim wrote: 28 Feb 2022, 00:05 He might even end up having a serious "Accident".
Maybe a barechested riding accident?
The pessimist sees difficulty in every opportunity. The optimist sees the opportunity in every difficulty.
Winston Churchill

Phil Sayers
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Re: Ukrainian Forces

Post by Phil Sayers »

Phil Sayers wrote: 07 Feb 2022, 17:56 Those drones are proven war-winners in Syria, Libya and Nagorno-Karabakh. However, it is one thing to operate basic, affordable UCAVS in situations where the enemy does not have air supremacy or a strong AD network and entirely another thing to intend to operate them against Russia and / or Russian backed forces in close proximity to Russia itself. I think Ukraine has already used them at least once in the Donbass (triggering protests from Russia) but personally I cannot see them as being a particularly sensible investment in the situation Ukraine now faces.
I will hold up my hands to being completely wrong about this - not only are they using them against the Russian military they are doing so to great effect. I'm still not sure I *should* have been wrong though, I find it difficult to fathom that Russia does not have air supremacy five days into a war on their own doorstep.
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Tempest414
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Re: Ukrainian Forces

Post by Tempest414 »

Phil Sayers wrote: 28 Feb 2022, 17:45
Phil Sayers wrote: 07 Feb 2022, 17:56 Those drones are proven war-winners in Syria, Libya and Nagorno-Karabakh. However, it is one thing to operate basic, affordable UCAVS in situations where the enemy does not have air supremacy or a strong AD network and entirely another thing to intend to operate them against Russia and / or Russian backed forces in close proximity to Russia itself. I think Ukraine has already used them at least once in the Donbass (triggering protests from Russia) but personally I cannot see them as being a particularly sensible investment in the situation Ukraine now faces.
I will hold up my hands to being completely wrong about this - not only are they using them against the Russian military they are doing so to great effect. I'm still not sure I *should* have been wrong though, I find it difficult to fathom that Russia does not have air supremacy five days into a war on their own doorstep.
And one they started
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Lord Jim
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Re: Ukrainian Forces

Post by Lord Jim »

Possibly because like NATO they have not had to fight an opponent with anything like a reasonable GBAD, let alone any form of Air Force, Georgia's doesn't really count yet even it was able to attack Russian Troops on the round with its SU-25s.

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Ian Hall
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Re: Ukrainian Forces

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Re: Ukrainian Forces

Post by TheLoneRanger »

Implies they have done basic training, aswell as advanced jet training on the Hawks ?


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