UK Defence Forum

Repulse wrote: ↑30 Oct 2022, 18:59

tomuk wrote: ↑30 Oct 2022, 17:48

Repulse wrote: ↑30 Oct 2022, 17:24 Perhaps not a River design, but there is definitely legs in a MHPC class to be built in numbers to ultimately take on the UK and Global Patrol roles also from the B1/B2s. A class of @12 should do it.

Yes there was a rational for a combined class combining mine hunting, hydrographic and patrol but it would need to be focused on the specialist requirements of the mine hunting and hydrographic roles. Patrol would be secondary. However by buying the B2s the patrol element is fulfilled.

The three B1 Rivers need replacing them I’d argue 4 at least to compliment the other unmanned MCM capable platforms. We’d be towards 2035 by then on a one per year drum beat so just in time for B2 replacements.

Not disagreeing with you. But do we have clarity on what their expected role would be?

If fishery protection and policing UK's maritime EEZ, then don't need to be as big as even River B1's and be armed with anything heavier than 12.7mm HMG.

If shadowing Russian warships and protecting UK's North Sea oil & gas platforms then arguably want something bigger and better armed.

The former could be maybe 1500t OPV whilst the latter could be around 3,000t Sloop / Corvette.

Repulse wrote: ↑30 Oct 2022, 17:24 Perhaps not a River design, but there is definitely legs in a MHPC class to be built in numbers to ultimately take on the UK and Global Patrol roles also from the B1/B2s. A class of @12 should do it.

As there are 8 River OPVs now, and 3 MCM support ship mentioned, I think your proposal matches very well with just what RN is doing now?

Don't forget the two echos and the 12? hunt and sandown minhunters

Repulse wrote: ↑30 Oct 2022, 18:59 The three B1 Rivers need replacing them I’d argue 4 at least to compliment the other unmanned MCM capable platforms. We’d be towards 2035 by then on a one per year drum beat so just in time for B2 replacements.

Current planning has the Three RB1s being replaced by three RB2s. The other two RB2s would be forward based in the Falklands and possibly Gibraltar.

The T31s would take over from the RB2s with 3 operating in the Gulf, Indian Ocean and the Asia Pacific. The remaining two would conduct FRE and APT(N) and APT(S).

MCM will be conducted via commercially purchased and/or leased PSVs augmented by the Auxiliaries.

They is no prospect of a class of MCMVs without additional funding. None.

IMO we are rapidly returning to the days of having to cut something to make something else happen.

tomuk wrote: ↑30 Oct 2022, 23:26 Don't forget the two echos and the 12? hunt and sandown minhunters

There is only one Enterprise left, but the Scott replacement looks like to be 2 vessels.

Six Sandown MCMVs are to be replaced via 6 USV-MCM systems purchased by MCH blk1, six Hunt MCMVs are to be replaced via another 6 USV-MCM systems and 3 Motherships.

Even though it looks like decreasing, but the 3 mother ships can replace at least 6 MCMVs, I think.

In addition, 8 OPVs are there. Before 2019, there were only 4 OPVs. Four more. And, OPV's sea-going days are much much longer than that of MCMV's. Also, OPV are much faster = optimized for patrol.

So, even if 12 MCMVs are replaced only by 12 USV-MCM kits and 3 mother ships, if we include the "more than doubled" OPV fleet's capability, I think "patrol" aspects of RN is not so much decreasing.

Poiuytrewq wrote: ↑31 Oct 2022, 00:03

Repulse wrote: ↑30 Oct 2022, 18:59 The three B1 Rivers need replacing them I’d argue 4 at least to compliment the other unmanned MCM capable platforms. We’d be towards 2035 by then on a one per year drum beat so just in time for B2 replacements.

Current planning has the Three RB1s being replaced by three RB2s. The other two RB2s would be forward based in the Falklands and possibly Gibraltar.

The T31s would take over from the RB2s with 3 operating in the Gulf, Indian Ocean and the Asia Pacific. The remaining two would conduct FRE and APT(N) and APT(S).

MCM will be conducted via commercially purchased and/or leased PSVs augmented by the Auxiliaries.

They is no prospect of a class of MCMVs without additional funding. None.

IMO we are rapidly returning to the days of having to cut something to make something else happen.

Selling the first 2 T31s should go a long way towards funding it, allowing the B2s to remain in their global role longer, which they seem to be doing rather well at. There is zero reason IMO to replace them with more expensive (but limited capability) warships when money is short.

From "the defense Equipment Plan 2022-2023" https://assets.publishing.service.gov.u ... o_2032.pdf

The MHC programme is procuring up to 6 Mine Countermeasures (MCM) Maritime Autonomous Mission Systems (MAS), up to 4 MCM (LSV) and a UK MCM (OSV) from the spot market.....The Mission Systems can be deployed at pace by air, land and sea and will eventually be capability of operating from a number of RN, RFA or suitable commercial vessels; including T26 and T32 frigates and the Multi- Role Support Ship (MRSS).
....

Despite challenges with supplier performance, MHC will deploy the first Operational Evaluation Unit to the Gulf before the end of the year, maintaining the schedule through proactive risk mitigation measures taken at programme level. Work is ongoing to stabilise and, DE&S are holding suppliers to account to ensure schedule adherence in accordance with contractual agreements.
The initial Operational Evaluation systems will commence operations in the UK in 2022 and overseas by the summer of 2023.
The UK OSV is scheduled to enter RFA service in April 2023. UK Sweep has already achieved export success and there is significant Global interest in the FR/UK Maritime MCM mine hunting capability.

So, up to 4 LSV (littoral support vessel?) and one OSV Offshore Support Vessel?

donald_of_tokyo wrote: ↑29 Nov 2022, 15:21
So, up to 4 LSV (littoral support vessel?) and one OSV Offshore Support Vessel?

The OSV should be an Offshore Support Vessel.

I was hoping the LSV was a Littoral Strike Vessel but I suspect it’s more likely a low-cost Lidl Support Vessel

UK Seeks Commercial OSV To Act As Blue-Water Mine Warfare Mothership

The UK is bolstering its mine warfare capability with the acquisition of a commercial vessel that will be used to deploy autonomous underwater vehicles (AUVs).

Using a commercial vessel will provide an available platform to support mine-hunting operations in UK waters and further afield, Naval News understands.

The vessel will be operated by the UK Royal Fleet Auxiliary (RFA).

The ship, reported to be an offshore support vessel (OSV), is likely to be similar in capability to OSVs operating in the North Sea, for example having a flight deck.

https://www.navalnews.com/naval-news/20 ... othership/

xav wrote: ↑20 Dec 2022, 09:19 UK Seeks Commercial OSV To Act As Blue-Water Mine Warfare Mothership

The UK is bolstering its mine warfare capability with the acquisition of a commercial vessel that will be used to deploy autonomous underwater vehicles (AUVs).

Using a commercial vessel will provide an available platform to support mine-hunting operations in UK waters and further afield, Naval News understands.

The vessel will be operated by the UK Royal Fleet Auxiliary (RFA).

The ship, reported to be an offshore support vessel (OSV), is likely to be similar in capability to OSVs operating in the North Sea, for example having a flight deck.

https://www.navalnews.com/naval-news/20 ... othership/

The attached article does go on to clarify:
"However, Naval News understands that the OSV acquisition to support deep-water AUV MCM operations is separate from the UK’s multi-role ocean surveillance ship (MROSS) programme, which is looking to acquire platforms and develop capabilities specifically to deal with seabed security challenges such as risks to cables and pipelines."

It will be interesting to see how the MROSS and MHC vessels will differ if both are based on OSV.

I would assume that unlike the already purchased MROSS with its moon pool and organic support for AUVs the OSV for MHC will be a lot simpler PSV style ship with a crane and deck space to host the ARCIMS and get it in the water.

The future UK MCMV support ship.



https://www.navylookout.com/uk-purchase ... ance-ship/

Video of the MV Island Crown from 2013

RichardIC wrote: ↑17 Jan 2023, 10:34The future UK MCMV support ship.

MAIN DIMENSIONS
Length over all = 96.8 m
Breadth moulded = 20.0 m
DW = 4.600 T

ref: https://www.islandoffshore.com/vessel/mv-island-crown

Some details from the owners...

Ynr 784 MV Island CrownW2W/ Accommodation vessel – DP II

GENERAL

Owner Island Offshore Management AS
Type W2W/ Accommodation vessel – DP II
Design UT 776 CD
Yard Vard Brevik
Ynr784
Delivery 2013
Class1A1 Offshore service vessel(Supply) Clean(Design) COMF(V-3) DK(+) DYNPOS(AUTR) E0 HELDK HL(2.8) Ice(C) NAUT(OSV(A)) SF SPS

MAIN DIMENSIONS

Length over all 96.8 m
Breadth moulded 20.0 m
DW 4.600 T

PERFORMANCE & CAPACITIES

Subsea crane SWL 50t/15m - 5t/37m ahc
Cargo deck area 561 m2
Accommodation 100

SPECIAL FEATURES

Equipped with a gang way system, subsea crane, a helideck and large tank capacity

TYPICAL WORK

Walk-to-work duties at oil-, gas and wind installations. May also perform crane work, subsea construction, ROV / RIB operations, survey work, IMR work and supply work.

https://www.islandoffshore.com/vessel/mv-island-crown

From NavyLookOut

A second ship, the MV Island Crown, (currently in Norway) has also been purchased by the MoD and is also due to be converted later this year into a mother ship for RN autonomous mine warfare boats. She will also serve in the RFA although her new name has yet to be decided upon. She is likely to be based at Faslane and will operate in support of mine countermeasures tasks around the UK and in European waters.

Island Crown is considerably smaller than the Topaz Tangaroa, designed primarily as an accommodation and ‘walk to work’ (WTW) vessel to safely deliver personnel to and from offshore energy installations. She was also designed and built by VARD in Norway and was completed in 2013. She has a 561 sq metre working deck, helideck and accommodation for up to 100 people. More details on this project to follow as they become available.

https://www.navylookout.com/uk-purchase ... ance-ship/

Looks like another good choice. A little reconfiguration on the back and she'll make a great mine clearer.

Could do with another to release the bay class sat in the gulf. Heck, could do with 5 more!

shark bait wrote: ↑17 Jan 2023, 19:46 Looks like another good choice. A little reconfiguration on the back and she'll make a great mine clearer.

Could do with another to release the bay class sat in the gulf. Heck, could do with 5 more!

Agree, looks great



Wouldn’t argue with a few more

My only comment for a future batch that's going to be based abroad, would be the addition of a hangar.

Royal Navy’s Mine-Hunting ‘Mother Ship’ Arrives In Plymouth

A specialist ship bought to support Royal Navy mine-hunting operations – a mother ship to launch drones to find and destroy undersea threats – has arrived in Plymouth.

...
Note that, as previously reported by Naval News , the OSV acquisition to support deep-water AUV MCM operations is separate from the UK’s multi-role ocean surveillance ship (MROSS) programme, which is looking to acquire platforms and develop capabilities specifically to deal with seabed security challenges such as risks to cables and pipelines. In both cases commercial vessels will be used, but for different tasks.

https://www.navalnews.com/naval-news/20 ... -plymouth/

USV MCM kits now start operating (although just trial) on KIPION LSD, RFA CardiganBay. Great step forward!!

Nice photo of her from above. Didn't realise how deep her hold was.

Good news. ARCIMS MCM USV deploying the Persian Gulf on Cardigan bay. Good, the program is moving forward!