Pakistan

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ArmChairCivvy
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Re: Pakistan

Post by ArmChairCivvy »

Lord Jim wrote:seem to be the current take on the idea Northrop had with the F-5 series.
Well, if you look at the beginning of the project (though the geometry, rather than the idea, was more influenced by the F-20 Tiger Shark):
"In 1994 US Northrop Grumman & China National Aero-Technology Import and Export Corporation (CATIC) ventured to jointly-develop a new lightweight multirole fighter, then known as the Super - 7. PAF joined in as a 3rd partner few years later.

At advanced design stage US Grumman left the project after sanctions were placed on China by the US"
- Tianmen and all that (should be topical today ;) )
Ever-lasting truths: Multi-year budgets/ planning by necessity have to address the painful questions; more often than not the Either-Or prevails over Both-And.
If everyone is thinking the same, then someone is not thinking (attributed to Patton)

Lord Jim
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Re: Pakistan

Post by Lord Jim »

F-20 was one of the best planes never to enter service.

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xav
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Re: Pakistan

Post by xav »

China’s CSTC Starts Construction of 3nd & 4th Type 054 A/P Frigate for Pakistan
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A steel cutting ceremony for the final two Type 054 A/P Frigates for Pakistan Navy was held at Hudong Zhonghua shipyard in China on November 1st.

Naval News understands that this steel cutting was for the third and fourth Type 054A/P frigates on order by Pakistan. A similar ceremony for the second frigate was held in December 2018 at Hudong Zhonghua shipyard.
https://www.navalnews.com/naval-news/20 ... -pakistan/

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xav
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Re: Pakistan

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Chinese Shipyard Launches 1st Type 054 A/P Frigate For Pakistan Navy

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China's Hudong Zhonghua launched the first Type 054 A/P Frigate for Pakistan Navy today. This is the first of four vessels on order by Pakistan.
...
For the record, the same shipyard located near Shanghai recently built two Type 075 LHDs for the Chinese Navy (PLAN) and a third one is rumored to be on the way. Hudong-Zhonghua is also currently building a Type 071E LPD for Thailand.
https://www.navalnews.com/naval-news/20 ... stan-navy/

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Tempest414
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Re: Pakistan

Post by Tempest414 »

They have a good fleet coming together of 10 Frigates and 10 Corvettes

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ArmChairCivvy
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Re: Pakistan

Post by ArmChairCivvy »

Will they send the subs back, though?
"An Islamist group in Pakistan has called off its anti-France protests, saying the Pakistani government has endorsed a boycott of French goods."
Ever-lasting truths: Multi-year budgets/ planning by necessity have to address the painful questions; more often than not the Either-Or prevails over Both-And.
If everyone is thinking the same, then someone is not thinking (attributed to Patton)

TheLoneRanger
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Re: Pakistan

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It is refreshing to see Pakistan procure new ships with state of the art weapon systems, rather than hand me downs from the USA, and the UK with systems well past their self lives. They are going to build more ships at home aswell, so expect to see the PN grow larger over time.

In addition to the above, they are also as follows :

1 - They have purchased some Damen ships aswell, though it seems they were built to commerical standards and not military, so there is a question mark of how long they will last and their ability to absorb battle damage.

https://www.damen.com/en/news/2020/11/p ... in_romania

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2 - Additionally, they are purchasing Milgem derivatives from Turkey

https://www.navalnews.com/naval-news/20 ... -corvette/

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3 - They are ordering 8 Chinese submarines based of the Type 39.

https://www.navyrecognition.com/index.p ... a-ssk.html

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4 - They are looking to develop a custom LRMP based of the Embraer Lineage 1000. They will call it the Sea Sultan and it will replace the P3Cs.

https://www.defensenews.com/naval/2020/ ... -aircraft/

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5 - They have recently purchased ATR-72 equipped with RAS-72-500 “Sea Eagle”

https://theaviationist.com/2020/06/28/p ... sea-eagle/

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In short, the PN is getting a massive facelift.

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2HeadsBetter
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Re: Pakistan

Post by 2HeadsBetter »

Latest round of top trumps:


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Tempest414
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Re: Pakistan

Post by Tempest414 »

Like it or not the PAF getting 25 J-10's is a big step

Lord Jim
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Re: Pakistan

Post by Lord Jim »

IF they are purchasing the latest block variant they are getting a platform roughly the same as a Block 60 F-16, with AEAS radar and Chinese AAMs that are nearly equal to western weapons. This will allow the Thunders to have a more flexible role including air to ground with hte J-10s providing top cover. However they will still be behind the Indian Air Force in numbers and quality even though the latter still operates many upgraded MIG-21 Bisons.

TheLoneRanger
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Re: Pakistan

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PAF is getting 2 squadrons - which works out to 36 fighters - of which they will demo 25 ( and either the others are still to be delivered or they hold them in reserve incase any of the 25 become inoperable). The recent unveiling of the HQ-19P(B) was when all the units were delivered and integrated so they may follow the same design pattern with the J10Cs.

The J10C is effectively the beginning of the end of the PAF operating American fighters, and signals the end of attempting to get to the 110 F16s that they have planned at the start of the F16 procurement and also the end of the PAF operating western fighters as part of its "next" cycle of force structure upgrades. In real terms, the F16 programme has become a humiliating failure for PAF, and one that they will not to look to repeat ever again with the Americans. If you look at all Pakistani procurements in the last 3-4 years, they have been Chinese, Russian, Turkish or some "European" systems eg CAMM-ER missiles and helicopters ( but which most expect european procurements to decline as the european companies fall foul to Indian snake oil of mytical procurements if they "just" dont sell to Pakistan routine ...), etc. With the exception of some TPS-77 radars(mobile variants) that are still outstanding from a delivery perpsective from the USA - there is nothing in the pipleline to buy from the USA.

The PAF also had a closed door unveiling of the JF17 Block III on 31 Dec 2021. The image shows that the JF17 Block III can be configured to deploy 5 x PL15s, so you will also have a BVR beast that fits in well with the network centric warfare concepts that Pakistan is following. PAF will remain the see-first and shoot first advantage with more AEW&Cs and longer range AAM's.

Official Picture
1641127195655.jpg
Render based on image :
Render.jpg
Patches :
PAC JF-17C Block III Patch.jpg
The J10Cs may well be for offensive strikes into India while the JF17 Block III with PL-15s will take on the Rafale. The J10Cs should be viewed in the context of the replacement of the existing Mirage fleet.

The war fighting strategy of Pakistan is also changing from a defensive mindset to one an that allows for selective offensive strikes, as this is seen as the best deterrence against India.

J10Cs, JF17s, HQ-9Bs (P's), HQ-16s are what Pakistan has procured in the last 3 years interms of AD and they create a formiddable wall that the IAF will find hard to break. The PL15s currently outclass everything that India has ( that includes their newly acquired Meteors ) and the SD-10s outclass everything else that the IAF has. India "had" a quantity advantage but that has become somewhat diluted with the increase in tensions on the LAC with China.

PAF normally buys ~(90-110) of any fighter it purchases(with the exception of the F16 programme which was an American made disaster ... ) so the expectation is that there will be further purchases of the J10C until that number is reached. The other advantage that the J10C offers over the locally built JF17 is financing as PAF can get cheap loans to finance the J10Cs whereas the JF17s require the Goverment of Pakistan to find the money(external loans) which is proving to be a problem for them.

India can only respond via the purchase of more Rafales which many expect, though the sale to UAE recently may complicate things for India interms of delivery timelines unless, of course, the French open another manufacturing line.

PS - it is looking like the PAA is dropping the stalled AH-1Z procurement from the Americans and the T-129's from Turkey, and is now moving to standardise on the Z-10ME platform instead for the replacement of the AH-1Fs in Pakistan.
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Lord Jim
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Re: Pakistan

Post by Lord Jim »

If they keep getting closer and closer to China, how long will it be that their Army and Navy start operating the Chinese "Blackhawk" and "Seahawk" look alikes respectively? We should also see their Air Force continue to order the JF-17 with more advanced versions replacing the earlier ones over time, as well as additional J-10s or even the F-35 look a like, uplifting the capability and capacity of the PAF at the same time. With the lowish cost of Chinese equipment and its growing capability, there is little the country needs from Western sources that cannot be supplied by China. This should start to close the capability gap with India, who is still having issues developing indigenous platforms and is having to buy increasingly expensive ones form western sources to maintain its edge.

TheLoneRanger
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Re: Pakistan

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Pakistan has ordered the Z-9 helicopters for the new 054 A/P frigates, so that process is ongoing to having more Chinese origin helicopters in Pakistan.

Pakistan will like to continue its defence relationship with Europe - they are simply removing "USA" from the equation as the Americans are unreliable as far as timely weapons delivery goes. Everything from the Americans is 'toxic' and everything is always used as 'leverage' to 'further American interests' resulting in multple delays and poor cost outcomes for those programmes. The AH-1Zs that Pakistan ordered will have to resold by the Americans to someone else or absorbed into the American military. Pakistan will never take delivery of those AH-1Zs now. The delay to the AH-1Zs is what kicked off the strategic rethink about procurement, and why there are so many programmes where Pakistan is mixing and matching to create its own solutions versus buying off the shelf a shrink wrapped solution.

The order for the T-129's shows a desire from Pakistan to maintain independent procurement pipelines as does CAMM-ER acquisition. Pakistan sees the dangers of being overly reliant on China - but it choices are limited right now interms of its decision making opportunities.

Pakistan is currently looking to procure Bombardier Global 6000's and most seem to suggest this could be to host the Turkish HAVASOJ platform for Pakistan, additionally possibly to using the same platform to host new GlobalEye-ER-Lite's for Pakistan ( ie the GlobalEye ER radar only and not the Leonardo SeaGuardian/SeaSpray(?) radar). SAAB will need to decide if it wants to carry on selling to Pakistan, or not .... Additionally Pakistan is procuring the Embraer Lineage to host the Leonardo SeaGuardian/SeaSpray(?) radar. So once again -mix and matching western solutions into platforms to create its own solution.

Fighter jets have very poor optics and politics associated with them and as you say - the J-21(derivative of the J-35) could well end up in PAF aswell, so fighter jets will all be from China and Turkey going forward. PAF is following the TFX programme closely, though it has engine supply issues that the Turks have not be able to generate a solution for yet.

TheLoneRanger
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Re: Pakistan

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Factory Fresh JF17 Block III's.
1641304455304.jpg
The JF17 Block III's have taken a while in the making to develop the capabilities required to take on the Rafale - but she is here now - Finally..
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Lord Jim
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Re: Pakistan

Post by Lord Jim »

When talking about European suppliers, well France certainly and Italy probably, are willing to sell military equipment without worrying about other issues, though the UK should also be included as well. Turkey could end up being the second biggest provider to Pakistan as its Defence Industry has grown in a similar way to china's though through legitimate technological transfer in the formers case. The T-129 is a case in point, though I am not sure what engines it would use as I thought the Turkish version still used a US sources engine though I could easily be wrong.

Icedragon9
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Re: Pakistan

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TheLoneRanger wrote: 02 Jan 2022, 11:47 he PL15s currently outclass everything that India has ( that includes their newly acquired Meteors ) and the SD-10s outclass everything else that the IAF has.
A dual pulsed solid-propellant missile like the PL15 does not "outclass" a throttleable ramjet missile like the Meteor.
However good you think the Chinese are getting at developing weapons even they still have to follow the laws of Physics.

Defiance
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Re: Pakistan

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Icedragon9 wrote: 04 Jan 2022, 16:05 A dual pulsed solid-propellant missile like the PL15 does not "outclass" a throttleable ramjet missile like the Meteor.
Quite! They might be able to shoot at similar ranges to Meteor but Meteor will have a higher Pk at that extended range compared to PL-15.

Competitive? Sure, but 'outclass' is hyperbole to the extreme. If you were talking R-77 on Su-30MKI (i'm assuming they have R-77) then it's more on target

TheLoneRanger
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Re: Pakistan

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Large HUD display that looks like the same once used in the J10Cs
JF-17 Block 3 front.jpg
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Icedragon9
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Re: Pakistan

Post by Icedragon9 »

Defiance wrote: 04 Jan 2022, 16:22
Icedragon9 wrote: 04 Jan 2022, 16:05 A dual pulsed solid-propellant missile like the PL15 does not "outclass" a throttleable ramjet missile like the Meteor.
If you were talking R-77 on Su-30MKI (i'm assuming they have R-77) then it's more on target
How good are the new versions of the R-77? I'm not that familiar with newer Russian BVR missiles.

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Re: Pakistan

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Icedragon9 wrote: 05 Jan 2022, 18:03 How good are the new versions of the R-77? I'm not that familiar with newer Russian BVR missiles.
My rudimentary understanding is the majority of R-77 variants are still outranged by AMRAAM. That might change with K-77M being developed for Su-57 which has an AESA seeker, cropped fins (binned the old draggy ones) and a dual pulse motor which allegedly is meant to be comparable to later AMRAAM versions. This might be true regarding range/kinematics but I remain unconvinced Russia can match the US when it comes to seeker development. There are also meant to be rumours of a ramjet variant but that's pretty much non-existant at this point

The question is how quickly will it be rolled out to the wider Flanker fleet and available for export

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Re: Pakistan

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And the US is looking to compliment or replace the AMRAAM with weapons of greater speed and range and with even more advanced seekers. If Russia wants to compete it really needs to politely ask the Chinese for some of their weapons as they have overtaken Russia in this area. I can see an even closer engagement between the two countries moving forward as each shares it's knowledge with its partner in the areas it leads in. Pakistan can only benefit form this.

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Re: Pakistan

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First PAF J-10Cs have rolled out in China - C variant confirmed from the photos as the powerplant is identified as WS-10B rather than AL-31F

https://www.thedrive.com/the-war-zone/4 ... tan-emerge

As is tradition, the export designation is unknown. Some call it J-10CE, others have called it FC-20 or FC-20E. For me J-10CE feels more natural.
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Lord Jim
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Re: Pakistan

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Not sure if these match the Rafale, but will worry the Indian SYU-30MKIs. Problem is Pakistan will always lose in the number game, though India is not doing itself any favours by its fragmented replacement programme with many MiG 21 Bison still in service. Pakistan with its purchase of the JF-17 to replace its aging Mirage and Chinese MiG fleets and the J-10 as its high end platform as made a dramatic improvement in its combat capabilities. It now need a modern airborne Radar/ISTAR capability as a force multiplier.

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Re: Pakistan

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Lord Jim wrote: 18 Feb 2022, 07:45 Not sure if these match the Rafale, but will worry the Indian SYU-30MKIs. Problem is Pakistan will always lose in the number game, though India is not doing itself any favours by its fragmented replacement programme with many MiG 21 Bison still in service. Pakistan with its purchase of the JF-17 to replace its aging Mirage and Chinese MiG fleets and the J-10 as its high end platform as made a dramatic improvement in its combat capabilities. It now need a modern airborne Radar/ISTAR capability as a force multiplier.
The PAF have 11 AEW&C aircraft at this time

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Re: Pakistan

Post by Lord Jim »

I wasn't sure if the Hawkeyes were still in service or of they had bought the Chinese aircraft. Thanks for the info.

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