French Armed Forces

News and discussion threads on defence in other parts of the world.
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ArmChairCivvy
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Re: French Armed Forces

Post by ArmChairCivvy »

Jensy wrote:before R&D.

Any belief that this project is going to come in at €5bn seems like fantasy. I'd imagine at least €10-12bn, in 2020 prices for one ship. Were it not for the the five Mistral Class coming in at reasonable prices, I'd guess even higher.
As for the Mistrals, they are not good evidence. We built something similar: an extra Invincible hull and put a 'box' on top... voi la, out comes HMS Ocean, at a v reasonable price.

I still agree with your price range (hence the R&D bit included in the quote). One of the big questions in the nuclear vs. conventional was that of their existing reactors, three would have been needed for the size that the new carrier needed to be.
- well. now it will have two of K-22s
- what did it/ will it cost before the build of the first unit is ready to commence :?: Probably not included in the estimate
Ever-lasting truths: Multi-year budgets/ planning by necessity have to address the painful questions; more often than not the Either-Or prevails over Both-And.
If everyone is thinking the same, then someone is not thinking (attributed to Patton)

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xav
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Re: French Armed Forces

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abc123
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Re: French Armed Forces

Post by abc123 »

xav wrote:
Only one. :thumbdown:
Fortune favors brave sir, said Carrot cheerfully.
What's her position about heavily armed, well prepared and overmanned armies?
Oh, noone's ever heard of Fortune favoring them, sir.
According to General Tacticus, it's because they favor themselves…

abc123
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Re: French Armed Forces

Post by abc123 »

Jensy wrote:
Any belief that this project is going to come in at €5bn seems like fantasy. I'd imagine at least €10-12bn, in 2020 prices for one ship.
Yeah, 5 bln. is fantasy. More like 7-8-9 bln. if everything goes fine.
Fortune favors brave sir, said Carrot cheerfully.
What's her position about heavily armed, well prepared and overmanned armies?
Oh, noone's ever heard of Fortune favoring them, sir.
According to General Tacticus, it's because they favor themselves…

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SKB
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Re: French Armed Forces

Post by SKB »

Will this steam-boiler powered PANG ship be named EUS Macron by 2038?! :mrgreen: :lol:

Scimitar54
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Re: French Armed Forces

Post by Scimitar54 »

It may of course, still be in the Build Dock! :mrgreen:

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Jensy
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Re: French Armed Forces

Post by Jensy »

SKB wrote:Will this steam-boiler powered PANG ship be named EUS Macron by 2038?! :mrgreen: :lol:
FS Jacques Chirac! Though I'd expect Richelieu is more likely.
ArmChairCivvy wrote: As for the Mistrals, they are not good evidence. We built something similar: an extra Invincible hull and put a 'box' on top... voi la, out comes HMS Ocean, at a v reasonable price.

I still agree with your price range (hence the R&D bit included in the quote). One of the big questions in the nuclear vs. conventional was that of their existing reactors, three would have been needed for the size that the new carrier needed to be.
Ocean was a bargain (would have been more so if we'd built two as planned) but the Mistrals are far more impressive little flat tops and hopefully will serve much longer than 20 years.

Didn't mention it, but the cost that India has faced for the new INS Vikrant implies even a non-nuclear first of class is within the scope of what we paid for 'Big Lizzie and Leaky Charlie'.. :P

I once felt we made the wrong choice on nuclear propulsion but all evidence I've seen since suggests we made the right judgement call. Especially as our own next gen reactor was still decades off. France obviously has a far better developed and broader capability in this area but it does seem a bit excessive for a Forestal sized ship.

Still any future European carriers are welcome news. If for no other reason than to keep the Max Hastings of this world from their anti-carrier crusades!

serge750
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Re: French Armed Forces

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Jensy wrote:I once felt we made the wrong choice on nuclear propulsion but all evidence I've seen since suggests we made the right judgement call. Especially as our own next gen reactor was still decades off. France obviously has a far better developed and broader capability in this area but it does seem a bit excessive for a Forestal sized ship

Definatly see the advantages of nuclear power

It does seem as though costs for carriers has shot up if not controlled properly, ford class our own QEC & IAC 1, but I do hope the French can get it right & build 2.....even a decade apart would be good for them to spread the massive cost

abc123
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Re: French Armed Forces

Post by abc123 »

serge750 wrote:even a decade apart would be good for them to spread the massive cost

How massive is that, exactly? Or at least the ballpark? :?:
Fortune favors brave sir, said Carrot cheerfully.
What's her position about heavily armed, well prepared and overmanned armies?
Oh, noone's ever heard of Fortune favoring them, sir.
According to General Tacticus, it's because they favor themselves…

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SKB
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Re: French Armed Forces

Post by SKB »

Image
Image
Image
Image
Image

3 propellors, 2 reactors, a top speed of 27 kts, no bulbous bow and some dodgy EMAL catapults supplied by General Dynamics.... :lol: :mrgreen:
https://news.usni.org/2020/12/08/presid ... er-program

Scimitar54
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Re: French Armed Forces

Post by Scimitar54 »

Depending on which CGI you look at, it could be either 2, 3 or even 4 x Catapults. In any case, they will need to acquire considerably more aircraft. :mrgreen:

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Pseudo
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Re: French Armed Forces

Post by Pseudo »

If the nuclear reactors are as maintenance hungry as CdG's then they're just going to end up with the same problem of having no carrier for a year or more every decade.

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ArmChairCivvy
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Re: French Armed Forces

Post by ArmChairCivvy »

Pseudo wrote:If the nuclear reactors are as maintenance hungry as CdG's
We've gone up one 'PW' since
Ever-lasting truths: Multi-year budgets/ planning by necessity have to address the painful questions; more often than not the Either-Or prevails over Both-And.
If everyone is thinking the same, then someone is not thinking (attributed to Patton)

serge750
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Re: French Armed Forces

Post by serge750 »

abc123 wrote:
serge750 wrote:even a decade apart would be good for them to spread the massive cost

How massive is that, exactly? Or at least the ballpark? :?:
Allowing for cost overruns it could be ….your guess is as good as mine, ford class cost more than projected, IAC 1, QEC so who knows maybe 50% more ? maybe not ? also what's inflation going to look like in the late 2030's/40

I really do hope their projections are right though, they do sound like a good capability to have :D

abc123
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Re: French Armed Forces

Post by abc123 »

serge750 wrote:
abc123 wrote:
serge750 wrote:even a decade apart would be good for them to spread the massive cost

How massive is that, exactly? Or at least the ballpark? :?:
Allowing for cost overruns it could be ….your guess is as good as mine, ford class cost more than projected, IAC 1, QEC so who knows maybe 50% more ? maybe not ? also what's inflation going to look like in the late 2030's/40

I really do hope their projections are right though, they do sound like a good capability to have :D
I meant the cost of development of a new nuclear reactor?
Fortune favors brave sir, said Carrot cheerfully.
What's her position about heavily armed, well prepared and overmanned armies?
Oh, noone's ever heard of Fortune favoring them, sir.
According to General Tacticus, it's because they favor themselves…

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ArmChairCivvy
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Re: French Armed Forces

Post by ArmChairCivvy »

ArmChairCivvy wrote:it will have two of K-22s
- what did it/ will it cost before the build of the first unit is ready to commence :?: Probably not included in the estimate
abc123 wrote: I meant the cost of development of a new nuclear reactor?
Me too (no hash# :) )
Ever-lasting truths: Multi-year budgets/ planning by necessity have to address the painful questions; more often than not the Either-Or prevails over Both-And.
If everyone is thinking the same, then someone is not thinking (attributed to Patton)

J. Tattersall

Re: French Armed Forces

Post by J. Tattersall »

I expect the French will try to get the EU to pay for it by claiming it's in reality a European aircraft carrier, and potentially naming it the Europa.

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ArmChairCivvy
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Re: French Armed Forces

Post by ArmChairCivvy »

J. Tattersall wrote:naming it the Europa
A folly; we know about renaming 'Deutschland' and how it was a clever move (as the ship was sunk)
Ever-lasting truths: Multi-year budgets/ planning by necessity have to address the painful questions; more often than not the Either-Or prevails over Both-And.
If everyone is thinking the same, then someone is not thinking (attributed to Patton)

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SKB
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Re: French Armed Forces

Post by SKB »

So does Brazil get to buy the CdG like they did with the Foch/São Paulo ?

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Pseudo
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Re: French Armed Forces

Post by Pseudo »

SKB wrote:So does Brazil get to buy the CdG like they did with the Foch/São Paulo ?
I suspect that the answer to that question can easily be found in CdG's propulsion system. ;)

Scimitar54
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Re: French Armed Forces

Post by Scimitar54 »

I think the truth is that the lesson of CAVEAT EMPTOR has been well and truly learned by the Brazilians with regard to buying from the French. Note how they went for HMS Ocean (returning to a British Built Ship) rather than something like a “Mistrale”.
I do not think that the Brazilians would touch CDG with a barge pole. :mrgreen:

abc123
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Re: French Armed Forces

Post by abc123 »

Scimitar54 wrote:I think the truth is that the lesson of CAVEAT EMPTOR has been well and truly learned by the Brazilians with regard to buying from the French. Note how they went for HMS Ocean (returning to a British Built Ship) rather than something like a “Mistrale”.
I do not think that the Brazilians would touch CDG with a barge pole. :mrgreen:

Don't see what the French have done to wrong them there, buying aicraft carrier after the end of his life and wanting to last forever? Without being too expensive?
Fortune favors brave sir, said Carrot cheerfully.
What's her position about heavily armed, well prepared and overmanned armies?
Oh, noone's ever heard of Fortune favoring them, sir.
According to General Tacticus, it's because they favor themselves…

abc123
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Posts: 2900
Joined: 10 May 2015, 18:15
United Kingdom

Re: French Armed Forces

Post by abc123 »

J. Tattersall wrote:I expect the French will try to get the EU to pay for it by claiming it's in reality a European aircraft carrier, and potentially naming it the Europa.

Napoleon? :lol:
Fortune favors brave sir, said Carrot cheerfully.
What's her position about heavily armed, well prepared and overmanned armies?
Oh, noone's ever heard of Fortune favoring them, sir.
According to General Tacticus, it's because they favor themselves…

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SKB
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Re: French Armed Forces

Post by SKB »

Jensy wrote:FS Jacques Chirac! Though I'd expect Richelieu is more likely.
Image
^ Cardinal Richelieu, the baddie character from "Dogtanian And The Three Muskehounds". :mrgreen:

serge750
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Re: French Armed Forces

Post by serge750 »

I have no clue
abc123 wrote:
serge750 wrote:
abc123 wrote:
serge750 wrote:even a decade apart would be good for them to spread the massive cost

How massive is that, exactly? Or at least the ballpark? :?:
Allowing for cost overruns it could be ….your guess is as good as mine, ford class cost more than projected, IAC 1, QEC so who knows maybe 50% more ? maybe not ? also what's inflation going to look like in the late 2030's/40

I really do hope their projections are right though, they do sound like a good capability to have :D
I meant the cost of development of a new nuclear reactor?
I Seriously have no clue :problem: but if it keeps the french nuclear reactor design team going, well done to them thinking long term :thumbup:

Will be interesting to know the costs in a couple of decades, or even nearer the time ( 10yrs ? ) the projected costs & hopefully some early build pictures....

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