UK Defence Forum

I think the uk should let them sell them but put a code in that makes the ejector seat activate if it gets to close to the Falklands maybe a 100 mile exclusion zone this time..

That's my entertainment for the day sorted.

To be fair we are really just doing them a favour. Argentina really doesn't need to worry about its military at the moment and could put that money to far better use.

The Armchair Soldier wrote:Meirda... UK says no to the export of the Korean KA-50 to Argentina. The aircraft has UK components, including MB ejection seats.

Oh go on gov let them have em just restrict the number a weapons

Where to next:

Huh, I wasn't aware JF-17 used MB ejector seats. From memory, the last Sino offering to Argentina was shot down (so to speak) as the Argentine Air Force desires Western avionics.

Spanish Mirages. Israeli Kfirs. Korean half-fighter/ half-trainer. Pakistani whatever they are called [the designation is just a tad upthread; the Thunder as for exports... like to Nigeria; do they have anyone around there to shoot down]. The 'real-thing' Chinese fighters... everything has fallen through
- but they do maintain the squadrons; if one would have to start from scratch - with no pilots - how long would that take? No planes to fly... in the bigger picture, is that important. When there is a will; there is a way

ArmChairCivvy wrote:Spanish Mirages. Israeli Kfirs. Korean half-fighter/ half-trainer. Pakistani whatever they are called [the designation is just a tad upthread; the Thunder as for exports... like to Nigeria; do they have anyone around there to shoot down]. The 'real-thing' Chinese fighters... everything has fallen through
- but they do maintain the squadrons; if one would have to start from scratch - with no pilots - how long would that take? No planes to fly... in the bigger picture, is that important. When there is a will; there is a way

If the UK wanted to be a real prick about blocking Argentine attempts to buy new fighters we could offer a couple of dozen Hawk T1's to them.

Pseudo wrote: we could offer a couple of dozen Hawk T1's to them

I think they would prefer those versions from Malesia that carry anti-ship missiles

If Argentina really wanted the Thunders I am pretty sure China/Pakistan could fir a Chinese seat as an alternative to the MB. But unless Argentina is gifted a fleet of new Jets including a support package, there Air Force is going to remain in quite a sorry state.

Lord Jim wrote:there Air Force is going to remain in quite a sorry state.

I think (not sure) it is the naval air(arm) sqdrns they've kept stood up (for fast jets)
... the planes being talked about do not have much to do with the navy, but (as we know) they were the elite and have the best pilots (though not the same as in the days of the Falklands)

ArmChairCivvy wrote:

Pseudo wrote: we could offer a couple of dozen Hawk T1's to them

I think they would prefer those versions from Malesia that carry anti-ship missiles

I'm sure that they'd prefer any variant more capable, but we'd obviously block them from purchasing them even second hand. What I'm suggesting is a T1's or nothing proposition.

ArmChairCivvy wrote: - but they do maintain the squadrons; if one would have to start from scratch - with no pilots - how long would that take?

I presume about 3-5 years...
But yes, if they really have the will...

When discussing the Thunder, it is important that people realise that there are two variants of the Thunder jet. Not many people have picked up on this fact..

FC1 - All Chinese systems including Chinese ejection seats, ecm systems and communication gear. (The Thunder prototype flew with Chinese ejection seats btw - Martin Baker was added later for Pakistan ... )

JF17 - Pakistani version combining a number of select western systems including ejection seats(British), ECM(Spanish), communication, targetting pods(Turkish), anti-SAM munitions(Brazi), inbuilt decoys(Spanish-indra) as well as Pakistani made munitions such as SOW/REK/Cruise missiles etc ..

The terms FC1 and JF17 are used to differentiate between the two and even the military press make the mistake of not differentating on this basis.

If Argentina is going to purchase the Thunder, it will be the FC1 variant and not the JF17 that is Pakistan specific and contains customisations that can be sold to countries that have friendly relations with the west, etc.

The Mynamar purchase was for the FC-1 and contains only Chinese systems. Nigeria purchased the JF17 variant.

The aircraft is designed to be modular, allowing for the integration of systems for each client. eg. Pakistan has setup a weapons integration facility at PAC/Kamra specifically to integrate systems that can only be provided to Pakistan only and not China. Since Pakistan has all of the source code, it can integrate and modify at its discretion. eg Turkish AAMs for WVR and BVRs will be integrated into the JF17, and the ASELPOD has been pretty much done now( Pakistan will if suitable, integrate other Turkish products onto the JF17 when they are available etc).

That's great detail, thx.
Indeed, when the base version dvlmnt was started, China looked like a cuddly Koala and Grumman provided design assistance. Tianmen Sq changed all that.
- I think the modlarity comes from it being the new F-5 ( a budget fighter) that could be sold to developing countries whether they were leaning to the West or East (as China; rather than the more grizzly-like Russia and any satellites on its orbit).

https://ukdefencejournal.org.uk/argenti ... -pakistan/

Treat this as any other reported Argentine procurement - wait till they stump up the money before thinking! They were always going to go this sort of direction sooner or later considering we use our political strength to block the alternatives.

Defiance wrote:https://ukdefencejournal.org.uk/argenti ... -pakistan/

Treat this as any other reported Argentine procurement - wait till they stump up the money before thinking! They were always going to go this sort of direction sooner or later considering we use our political strength to block the alternatives.

It is the FC1 Block III that may be sold and not the JF17 Block III ( difference being some western systems are in JF17, whereas FC1 is a pure chinese implementation ). Also, it is China who has the lead on this sale as they have been working on this deal and not Pakistan (though Pakistan will benefit to the tune of 58% of the airframe only, the rest + weapons will be from China only etc).

China and Pakistan take the lead on which clients to go after and if China is in the lead, it is always for the FC1 variant and if Pakistan takes the lead, then it is the JF17 variant. For Nigeria, Pakistan took the lead for the sale but for Mynamar - China took the lead for the sale.

The Block III's will come with KJ-7A AESA radars and the PL15 BVR missile which will bring it close to what the Typhoons can manage with the meteor.

Pedantic difference - but context is always important.

I had thought that Martin Martin Baker provided the ejector seats for the JF-17? If so these could be replaced for another make of course, however I wonder if there's any more UK content on this jet?

The jets sold to Mynamar have Chinese Ejection seats - but those sold to Pakistan and Nigeria have Martin Baker seats.

All of the non-chinese/pakistani elements eg Western or Russian components in the Pakistani version(JF17 version)s have backups that are pure chinese(ie FC-1) if required, eg engines(ie WS-13 which is chinese versus the RD-93), ew systems, etc.

It is designed to be and ITAR free and and sanctions free platform from the outset. A unique appleal of the platform on top of the new AESA radars and PL15 and PL10 missiles which are significant capability upgrades. The aircraft has undergone significant upgrades in its EW capabilities and has very significan network centric warfare concepts built into it.

If any of you have DCS - you should try the JF17 module in it, gives you an idea of what the platform looks like ..

Note, the version that Argentina is buying will also have the RD93-MA which as an extra 10kn of thrust giving it a T/W ratio that is comfortably ahead of 1:1 - so it will be an agile WVR fighter aswell. The Block III is the one everyone has been waiting for and there will be other announcements of the procurement of this type soon aswell.

TheLoneRanger wrote:The jets sold to Mynamar have Chinese Ejection seats - but those sold to Pakistan and Nigeria have Martin Baker seats.

All of the non-chinese/pakistani elements eg Western or Russian components in the Pakistani version(JF17 version)s have backups that are pure chinese(ie FC-1) if required, eg engines(ie WS-13 which is chinese versus the RD-93), ew systems, etc.

It is designed to be and ITAR free and and sanctions free platform from the outset. A unique appleal of the platform on top of the new AESA radars and PL15 and PL10 missiles which are significant capability upgrades. The aircraft has undergone significant upgrades in its EW capabilities and has very significan network centric warfare concepts built into it.

If any of you have DCS - you should try the JF17 module in it, gives you an idea of what the platform looks like ..

Note, the version that Argentina is buying will also have the RD93-MA which as an extra 10kn of thrust giving it a T/W ratio that is comfortably ahead of 1:1 - so it will be an agile WVR fighter aswell. The Block III is the one everyone has been waiting for and there will be other announcements of the procurement of this type soon aswell.

Naturally thoughts will turn to the Falklands. But I do ask myself 1)where will they be based? 2) will Argentina be able to afford anything more than an air-to -air fit? 3) even if the could afford a multi-role fit how many combat ready crew would they be able to generate skilled in this? 4) how many combat ready jets could they generate out of 12, 2 steady-state for QRA, 4 to 5 for a surge? I do also note that they're going 4th Gen when the rest of the world is going 5th and developing 6th.

J. Tattersall wrote: I do also note that they're going 4th Gen when the rest of the world is going 5th and developing 6th.

Fundamentally South America is a peaceful continent* so the need for 5th/6th generation isn't really as critical as it is for other regions. Venezuela is belligerent but the only country with the $$$ to advance to 5th gen (Brazil) has about 1500+ miles between anywhere important and the Venezuelan border.

That generational leap will likely only really come if they want to start playing in other parts of the world, IMO

*peaceful as far as state-on-state warfare is concerned, they still have lower level security issues

Which ever version they end up getting it would be a leap in capability for the Argentinian Air Force, though the numbers involved and the availability of tanker assets should mean that the threat level to the Falklands should remain unchanged.

The twitter feed that kicked this off has a correction:

"Argentinian statement w.r.t the JF-17:
"Likewise, this ministry clarifies that it has not been issued regarding the purchase of supersonic aircraft of any origin and is in the technical-economic and financial evaluation stage of five alternatives."["]

Argentina claims disproportionate military presence (I wonder why ) in the S. Atlantic and is also putting three companies under sanctions for allegedly exploiting 'their' hydrocarbons:
"The oil companies are Chrysaor Holdings Limited and Harbor Energy Plc, which are based in Britain, and the Israeli company Navitas Petroleum LP"
... the good news, then, is that this time around Israel is unlikely to send technical assistance teams for the Argie forces

It would appear that China and Argentina have signed an agreement for a nuclear power reactor that increases Argentinas international debt China has previously created debt traps for countries struggling to repay loans so it might be of interest what China may get out of this , certainly, Argentina has recently backed Chinas claims to Taiwan as at the same time China-backed Argentinas claims to the Falklands certainly Russia and China made similar mutual claims to seizures of territories
https://www.world-nuclear-news.org/Arti ... hal-tejas/