Strike Brigades (SDSR 15)

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ArmChairCivvy
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Re: Strike Brigades (SDSR 15)

Post by ArmChairCivvy »

benny14 wrote: Nothing is new about it.
Except men and kit in different countries; rather than moved together?
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Lord Jim
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Re: Strike Brigades (SDSR 15)

Post by Lord Jim »

Moving the Strike Brigades to where they are need quickly is the main reason including the Ajax wrecks the whole concept. Even moving by rail has issues when trying to get to the Baltics as Russia has a very large fortified enclave making this far from simple. The only way NATO can effectively defend its eastern borders is to have formations deployed from members on site and the equipment for any reinforcements already there for the troops to flying and mount up. However NATO countries like Germany will not really support this idea as they see it as too provocative. In fact Germany is going to be the biggest hurdle to NATO being able to react to a threat to the Baltics as since their border is no longer the front line they seem to only want to use diplomacy regardless of what happens and if Germany doesn't allow troops, equipment and supplies to move from and though it, NATO cannot function.

Returning to the Strike Brigade, the default for the UK should be to literally copy the US Army's Striker Brigade. Even if we only end up with one and have two Mechanised Brigades equipped with MRV(P) it would be far better that what is currently planned on paper. And that is the key, nothing is set in stone at present so the MoD can still realise its error and do things the right way.

james k
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Re: Strike Brigades (SDSR 15)

Post by james k »

Two things are, firstly we won't have any bases in Germany and secondly we won't be a part of their eu. That creates a whole new political and diplomatic environment in which these things take place.
benny14 wrote:
james k wrote:If the men are here and their equipment in Germany what are they going to train on? Are the Germans going to let us have our vehicles if needed for a non eu/NATO task? Are they then going to allow our ships to use european ports to load equipment for a conflict they might not agree with? Who is going to care for and maintain the vehicles in Germany? How much will the germans demand from us?
We have been doing this since the coldwar. Nothing is new about it.

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Re: Strike Brigades (SDSR 15)

Post by ArmChairCivvy »

james k wrote: firstly we won't have any bases in Germany
Admittedly :) Gen. Carter told us about studying whether to retain "infrastructure" and "facilities" in Germany, so slightly down on the scale from "bases"
Ever-lasting truths: Multi-year budgets/ planning by necessity have to address the painful questions; more often than not the Either-Or prevails over Both-And.
If everyone is thinking the same, then someone is not thinking (attributed to Patton)

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Re: Strike Brigades (SDSR 15)

Post by dmereifield »

ArmChairCivvy wrote:
james k wrote: firstly we won't have any bases in Germany
Admittedly :) Gen. Carter told us about studying whether to retain "infrastructure" and "facilities" in Germany, so slightly down on the scale from "bases"
Does anyone know what facilities have been retained (i.e. Not yet disposed of) at this point?

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Re: Strike Brigades (SDSR 15)

Post by james k »

And we won't be a part of the EU. From my perspective that's good, very good, but it does complicate the idea of having our equipment in a country with which we have no ties.

Imagine it's 1982 again and John Nott has decided to base our submarines in France and do simulator training in the UK, are the French going to give us access to our subs when Argentina attacked? Not a chance! Back to today I can see the Germans being really obliging when it's a european threat, we're trying to respond to BUT outside of the eu on a UK specific interest? Brussels will hold that up forever and a day, just because we have given them to the power to do so.

Defiance
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Re: Strike Brigades (SDSR 15)

Post by Defiance »

While you might mistrust the EU that scenario is absolutely bonkers.

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Re: Strike Brigades (SDSR 15)

Post by Caribbean »

Have to agree with@Defiance, @jamesf, the discussion was about keeping heavy armour forward deployed in Europe, to shorten transit times in the event of a Russian invasion - don't see much of that sort of equipment being used in the Falklands. We currently have the heavy transport capability to move approximately half our heavy armour by road - keeping the other half close to where it is most likely to be used is actually quite a sensible idea (as long as we can react fast enough to prevent "little green men" getting to the sites before us, of course). I don't think anyone is advocating basing any RN resources in Europe (or anything more than the current RAF commitment to NATO air policing)
The pessimist sees difficulty in every opportunity. The optimist sees the opportunity in every difficulty.
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Lord Jim
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Re: Strike Brigades (SDSR 15)

Post by Lord Jim »

We have had some problems in the past with some European NATO members not willing to support us on non NATO operation, by refusing to sell us spares and ammunition. Never had that problem with the US except for Suez which was a real stab in the back.

Back to the Strike Brigades, in my mind I see a formation that can drive to the Baltics in and have is lead elements in place within 48hrs. Quire possible if the formation is all wheeled AFVs and support vehicles. It would be even better if we had the equipment for a battalion based battlegroup prepositioned in eastern Poland. The current plans for the MIV don't facilitate this though as the planned variants are too lightly armed and the Ajax unless prepositioned will take as long as an MBT and I would rather send those. The Army has the principal behind the "Strike" Brigades pretty much on the money they just haven't a clue how to implement it nor the funding, the main reason why any extra money that goes to the MoD need to finally go to the Army. Having AFVs that three generations of soldiers from the same family could have driven is not a good advertisement for the state of the Army.

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Re: Strike Brigades (SDSR 15)

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Lord Jim wrote:We have had some problems in the past with some European NATO members not willing to support us on non NATO operation, by refusing to sell us spares and ammunition. Never had that problem with the US except for Suez which was a real stab in the back
Non-cooperation, certainly. Obstruction or denying us the use of our own equipment - can't think of when that has happened.
I agree with you that an all-wheeled formation makes the most sense for fast deployment, which is perhaps why the Army is looking at forward-basing certain assets. Perhaps we could move the 70 C2 in storage to Germany, along with sufficient Ajax and Warrior (since it seems we will have a surplus of them) and initial supplies to build a pre-positioned "ghost" brigade. Deploy the crews by air and follow-up logistic etc by road alongside the wheeled elements of the strike brigades and light infantry
The pessimist sees difficulty in every opportunity. The optimist sees the opportunity in every difficulty.
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Re: Strike Brigades (SDSR 15)

Post by ArmChairCivvy »

Lord Jim wrote: Never had that problem with the US except for Suez which was a real stab in the back.
More like a big boot, sending us "flying" and well away from the heart of "oil politics". So, having lost out on the potential benefits of that state of the affairs, we later took on to share the costs of it :think: anyway?
Ever-lasting truths: Multi-year budgets/ planning by necessity have to address the painful questions; more often than not the Either-Or prevails over Both-And.
If everyone is thinking the same, then someone is not thinking (attributed to Patton)

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Re: Strike Brigades (SDSR 15)

Post by ArmChairCivvy »

Caribbean wrote: Perhaps we could move the 70 C2 in storage to Germany
Aren't they there already? In humidity controlled (=A/C) premises :)

If we want to save the "drive" here and back in the upgrading context, then (217-70) = 147 is awfully close to the number rumoured to be upgraded :silent:
- even if the Germans win the contract, I think their consortium had secured some heavy-metal bashing facilities for use in the UK.
Ever-lasting truths: Multi-year budgets/ planning by necessity have to address the painful questions; more often than not the Either-Or prevails over Both-And.
If everyone is thinking the same, then someone is not thinking (attributed to Patton)

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Re: Strike Brigades (SDSR 15)

Post by Caribbean »

Did they close Ashchurch? I know it was being talked about (2012??), but I thought the plan was for a temporary move, before bringing them back to the UK. Makes you wonder why it's an issue worth mention if they are already there
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Re: Strike Brigades (SDSR 15)

Post by benny14 »

It has already been confirmed that the UK's vehicle storage depot at Ayrshire Barracks in Germany will remain open for at least four years after the last troops withdraw in 2019. We still apparently have over 1000 vehicles stored there and most likely will for years to come. Would be interested to know what is actually stored there in terms of tanks.

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Re: Strike Brigades (SDSR 15)

Post by Caribbean »

Thanks @benny - yes - it would be good to know what's held there. Didn't Ashchurch hold around 6000 vehicles? (Can't remember where I read that). If it did, then what happened to the rest of them. Witham SV haven't sold them all, have they?
The pessimist sees difficulty in every opportunity. The optimist sees the opportunity in every difficulty.
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james k
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Re: Strike Brigades (SDSR 15)

Post by james k »

Hard to believe that I was so unclear. The hypothetical example of our submarines being in French hands in 1982 was only made to show the folly of letting any other nation control your military assets. As for not needing the vehicles in the Falklands how does that work, if in 1982 we deployed CVR(T) why would't we deploy it's replacement? In addition I was discussing non european British interests, be they in the Falklands, a Commonwealth nation, the Far East or anywhere where British and eu interests are not necessarily the same.

As I said this plan makes a little sense in the context of a Russian threat to the eu (I'm not convinced that letting the Russians do their thing whilst we watch from the sidelines, would be unwise as I see the eu as a threat to our national interest as well), anywhere else and it becomes a bad plan. Emden the port we would have to use is a very poor substitute for Marchwood and then who is going to provide security for our equipment when it isn't in our care? And in the case of little green [Russian] men attacking our equipment we might also find the Russians can use a single conventional missile or an airstrike for the same effect. Having everything as one large tempting target might not be prudent.
Caribbean wrote:Have to agree with@Defiance, @jamesf, the discussion was about keeping heavy armour forward deployed in Europe, to shorten transit times in the event of a Russian invasion - don't see much of that sort of equipment being used in the Falklands. We currently have the heavy transport capability to move approximately half our heavy armour by road - keeping the other half close to where it is most likely to be used is actually quite a sensible idea (as long as we can react fast enough to prevent "little green men" getting to the sites before us, of course). I don't think anyone is advocating basing any RN resources in Europe (or anything more than the current RAF commitment to NATO air policing)

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Re: Strike Brigades (SDSR 15)

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We still have all the Challenger 2's, mostly in storage and a small number of Challenger 1 (as gate guards and training aids). Last time I was at Ashchurch in 2007 only a few sheds were occupied some being used for commercial car storage.
benny14 wrote:It has already been confirmed that the UK's vehicle storage depot at Ayrshire Barracks in Germany will remain open for at least four years after the last troops withdraw in 2019. We still apparently have over 1000 vehicles stored there and most likely will for years to come. Would be interested to know what is actually stored there in terms of tanks.

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Re: Strike Brigades (SDSR 15)

Post by Caribbean »

@james k - we may well be talking at cross-purposes, and if so I apologise, however, even if we kept an entire ghost brigade's worth of C2, Ajax and Warrior forward deployed in Europe, I think it's quite clear that we would still have sufficient heavy armour resources in the UK to handle virtually any expeditionary situation outside of Europe without recourse to the forward-deployed resources in Europe.
As for "letting another nation control our assets" - definitely a valid point. However, (and I confess that I don't have the same view of the EU as you do), I do feel that there is virtually no likelihood of the scenario that you describe happening, particularly as the scenario is quite likely to be addressed in any agreement with the host country.
The pessimist sees difficulty in every opportunity. The optimist sees the opportunity in every difficulty.
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Re: Strike Brigades (SDSR 15)

Post by Defiance »

james k wrote:Hard to believe that I was so unclear. The hypothetical example of our submarines being in French hands in 1982 was only made to show the folly of letting any other nation control your military assets.
Because it's a poor example. The UK would never permanently base such a strategic and sensitive system within the borders of another nation, why would we do that, ever?

I get what you're trying to say, but you've not done it credit by using that as an example regardless how hypothetical it was supposed to be. It's like trying to justify a commute using air travel because I might encounter a lava-flow were I to use my car instead.

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Re: Strike Brigades (SDSR 15)

Post by james k »

But I believe that basing assets in a foreign country with which we have no formal relationship, a country which in the fullness of time is likely to be fully subsumed into a larger Federal nation, and has some political hostility to the UK is also pretty damned stupid!
Defiance wrote:
james k wrote:Hard to believe that I was so unclear. The hypothetical example of our submarines being in French hands in 1982 was only made to show the folly of letting any other nation control your military assets.
Because it's a poor example. The UK would never permanently base such a strategic and sensitive system within the borders of another nation, why would we do that, ever?

I get what you're trying to say, but you've not done it credit by using that as an example regardless how hypothetical it was supposed to be. It's like trying to justify a commute using air travel because I might encounter a lava-flow were I to use my car instead.

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Re: Strike Brigades (SDSR 15)

Post by benny14 »

Quick question if anyone knows. Will the two remaining armoured brigades still have heavy protected mobility battalions? or are they going to be only 1 armoured regiment and 2 armoured infantry battalions?

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Re: Strike Brigades (SDSR 15)

Post by abc123 »

benny14 wrote:It has already been confirmed that the UK's vehicle storage depot at Ayrshire Barracks in Germany will remain open for at least four years after the last troops withdraw in 2019. We still apparently have over 1000 vehicles stored there and most likely will for years to come. Would be interested to know what is actually stored there in terms of tanks.

If forvard deployed, then why not in say Poland, Romania or Baltic? That's where you can realisticly expect the action against Russians, not anymore in Fulda gap.
Fortune favors brave sir, said Carrot cheerfully.
What's her position about heavily armed, well prepared and overmanned armies?
Oh, noone's ever heard of Fortune favoring them, sir.
According to General Tacticus, it's because they favor themselves…

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Re: Strike Brigades (SDSR 15)

Post by benny14 »

abc123 wrote:If forvard deployed, then why not in say Poland, Romania or Baltic? That's where you can realisticly expect the action against Russians, not anymore in Fulda gap.
Putting them in Poland would be preferable, but the costs of setting up a new facility would be high.

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Re: Strike Brigades (SDSR 15)

Post by abc123 »

benny14 wrote:
abc123 wrote:If forvard deployed, then why not in say Poland, Romania or Baltic? That's where you can realisticly expect the action against Russians, not anymore in Fulda gap.
Putting them in Poland would be preferable, but the costs of setting up a new facility would be high.
I'm sure that the Poles would be glad to cover at least part of the costs.
Fortune favors brave sir, said Carrot cheerfully.
What's her position about heavily armed, well prepared and overmanned armies?
Oh, noone's ever heard of Fortune favoring them, sir.
According to General Tacticus, it's because they favor themselves…

Lord Jim
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Re: Strike Brigades (SDSR 15)

Post by Lord Jim »

You could probably get NATO funding to set up a preposition storage site in eastern Europe. The deal done with Russia not to move troops east is null and void, and NATO cannot be labelled as provocative as the Russian have moved so much kit into Kaliningrad just for starters.

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