Strike Brigades (SDSR 15)

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Pymes75
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Strike Brigades (SDSR 15)

Post by Pymes75 »

Thought it would be pertinent to start a thread on the forthcoming Strike Brigades (whatever that means in reality!), and what better way than to link to Gabriele's always excellent blog:

http://ukarmedforcescommentary.blogspot ... -deal.html

~UNiOnJaCk~
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Re: Strike Brigades (SDSR 15)

Post by ~UNiOnJaCk~ »

Good idea. One thing of note from Gabby's analysis is however that he suggests the order for Ajax was precisely made with one particular ORBAT arrangement in mind and the new Strike Brigades seem to change the scene somewhat. The conclusion? That there might not be enough vehicles to cover the requirement.

That said, Gabby seems to rather unilaterally state that the Ajax order will not be increased. Surely it's too early to call anything on that? If the ORBAT really has shaken up equipment requirements then i see no way to avoid following through with a second batch, however large or small?

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Re: Strike Brigades (SDSR 15)

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Re: Strike Brigades (SDSR 15)

Post by ~UNiOnJaCk~ »

You're probably right. Still, will be interesting to see how it all pans out. Another order for Ajax certainly wouldn't go amiss numbers wise though - especially if more of the variants found their way in to service (looking at you Striker replacement...).

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ArmChairCivvy
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Re: Strike Brigades (SDSR 15)

Post by ArmChairCivvy »

~UNiOnJaCk~ wrote:Gabby seems to rather unilaterally state that the Ajax order will not be increased. Surely it's too early to call anything on that?
The army (MoD) said that too, when they placed the order. However, before all versions were batched up, there was an option over and above of the confirmed turreted (then "Scout") wagons order quantity (probably meaning that were it to be exercised, there would not be another round of price negotiation).
- those were the times when all recce rgmnts were to get a squadron, and the rest of them, within each rgmnt, were to be "light"
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Re: Strike Brigades (SDSR 15)

Post by ~UNiOnJaCk~ »

ArmChairCivvy wrote:
~UNiOnJaCk~ wrote:Gabby seems to rather unilaterally state that the Ajax order will not be increased. Surely it's too early to call anything on that?
The army (MoD) said that too, when they placed the order. However, before all versions were batched up, there was an option over and above of the confirmed turreted (then "Scout") wagons order quantity (probably meaning that were it to be exercised, there would not be another round of price negotiation).
- those were the times when all recce rgmnts were to get a squadron, and the rest of them, within each rgmnt, were to be "light"
I take it we don't know how that option sits presently? I would have personally thought that as long as the production line remains open, placing top up orders if necessary or exercising the right to buy additional variants would be a simple as writing the cheque. I guess that is why i am hoping the possibility has not yet entirely died off as something of a requirement does seem to be there.

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ArmChairCivvy
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Re: Strike Brigades (SDSR 15)

Post by ArmChairCivvy »

~UNiOnJaCk~ wrote:placing top up orders if necessary or exercising the right to buy additional variants would be a simple as writing the cheque. I guess that is why i am hoping the possibility has not yet entirely died of
Yep, uncertain if the option got buried when all orders were bundled together. It simply meant that the unit price was guaranteed for a certain increment, not beyond.
- logic says, if you order more in one go, then you should get it even cheaper (but components may have shot through the roof in unit price by then, who knows)
Ever-lasting truths: Multi-year budgets/ planning by necessity have to address the painful questions; more often than not the Either-Or prevails over Both-And.
If everyone is thinking the same, then someone is not thinking (attributed to Patton)

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Think Defence
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Re: Strike Brigades (SDSR 15)

Post by Think Defence »

The order to GD did include options for additional options but the wording from the MoD went something like 'but we don't expect to exercise them'

Can't see additional Ajax to be honest but you never know

These Strike Brigades sound very much like the FRES medium weight concept to me.

The Army will reorganise itself, as it always has done, don't see the big fuss and obsession with ORBAT's to be honest
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Re: Strike Brigades (SDSR 15)

Post by ~UNiOnJaCk~ »

Good points guys. Also TD, i agree. First thing i thought was a 'UK' Stryker BCT when the idea was mentioned. Do you know if the alleged clause related to any of the SV variants or only additionally orders of those we already have on contract? The optimist in me is still hoping we see the over-watch variant make a triumphant return ;)

Not sure how they intend to cover all the Army's needs with just 300 MIVs either though...Hopefully some more should come out about that soon. Interesting months ahead - the detail behind the SDSR that is.

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Think Defence
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Re: Strike Brigades (SDSR 15)

Post by Think Defence »

UJ, the after party is always the most interesting!
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Re: Strike Brigades (SDSR 15)

Post by marktigger »

a heavy armour capability both tanks and armoured infantry like the old mech brigades might be a good starting point

Pymes75
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Re: Strike Brigades (SDSR 15)

Post by Pymes75 »

marktigger wrote:a heavy armour capability both tanks and armoured infantry like the old mech brigades might be a good starting point
Seriously doubt that will happen! I'm pretty sure they'll resemble US Stryker Brigades or French Mécanisée Brigades equipped with the MIV (most likely either Piranha or VBCI) but using Ajax in place of Stryker MGS/AMX 10 RC in the cavalry regiments.

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Re: Strike Brigades (SDSR 15)

Post by marktigger »

I think the Challey/warrior combination with Ajax/Wheeled Vehicle replacing Saxon would work with AS90/MLRS regt backing it up.

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Re: Strike Brigades (SDSR 15)

Post by Pymes75 »

marktigger wrote:I think the Challey/warrior combination with Ajax/Wheeled Vehicle replacing Saxon would work with AS90/MLRS regt backing it up.
I'm certain that the Chally/Warrior/AS90 combination will be exclusively employed in the remaining two Armoured Brigades (funny how this matches the French Army!).

The most interesting question is what will the Strike Brigades do for artillery (assuming they have any assigned! :?).

What is frustrating about this SDSR is the total lack of any detail (and therefore the reality) of the reorganisation of the army...

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Re: Strike Brigades (SDSR 15)

Post by ArmChairCivvy »

marktigger wrote:replacing Saxon
The last Saxons seen are those that were taken off storage and sold to Ukraine?
Ever-lasting truths: Multi-year budgets/ planning by necessity have to address the painful questions; more often than not the Either-Or prevails over Both-And.
If everyone is thinking the same, then someone is not thinking (attributed to Patton)

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Re: Strike Brigades (SDSR 15)

Post by ArmChairCivvy »

Pymes75 wrote:lack of any detail (and therefore the reality) of the reorganisation of the army...
- they took an extra round last time around, too

I would think there is something going on re: how to avoid an open competition and take the same MIV (improved!) that the French formations that we would be operating with are getting already.

We could do more one-upmanship with Arty as well as the original Caesar was force-fitted into a C-130. This one
https://defencesummits.files.wordpress. ... nexter.jpg
fits into an Atlas.
Ever-lasting truths: Multi-year budgets/ planning by necessity have to address the painful questions; more often than not the Either-Or prevails over Both-And.
If everyone is thinking the same, then someone is not thinking (attributed to Patton)

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Re: Strike Brigades (SDSR 15)

Post by marktigger »

ArmChairCivvy wrote:
marktigger wrote:replacing Saxon
The last Saxons seen are those that were taken off storage and sold to Ukraine?
more than aware of that but replacing saxon/432 in the rebuilt brigades

Wrekin762
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Re: Strike Brigades (SDSR 15)

Post by Wrekin762 »

Those battalions are currently equipped with Mastiffs returned from Afghanistan though.
So MIV would be replacing those and whatever remains of Bulldog 2, rather than Saxon which hasn't been used by Mech Inf in years (or "Heavy Protected Mobility Infantry" as they're called nowadays).

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Re: Strike Brigades (SDSR 15)

Post by marktigger »

the mechanised infantry has been faffed about for years the original saxon equipped brigades were meant as depth troops in the old BAOR behind the Armoured infantry. Then when Bosnia and Kosovo appeared it was more Politically acceptable to be seen to be patroling in Armoured 4 tonner than an MICV. However Saxon was always the wrong vehicle it was procured to stop GKN sankey going bust after the fall of the shah of iran having been ordered by them as an internal security vehicle which in Northern Ireland and iraq a role it failed in. Shame we hadn't cut our Losses in the 90's and bought into the Canadian ALV/AusLAV and NZLAV program GKN had the lisence to build them and had a more capable Mechanised infantry force.

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Re: Strike Brigades (SDSR 15)

Post by ArmChairCivvy »

marktigger wrote:as depth troops in the old BAOR
That is a nice way of saying that they were meant to drive along roads strafed by the opposing air force and meet up half way with BAOR that would have by then conducted a fighting retreat, as per plan.

The current Mastiff bns can't do very much more. They have better intra-theatre mobility than the main formation they belong to and are therefore a valuable mobile reserve. And in situations where FEBA does not exist in any clear form, they can deliver force protection to the "tail" that otherwise could be harassed at will.
... and that's about it. When was it, again, that the MIVs are due to arrive?
Ever-lasting truths: Multi-year budgets/ planning by necessity have to address the painful questions; more often than not the Either-Or prevails over Both-And.
If everyone is thinking the same, then someone is not thinking (attributed to Patton)

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whitelancer
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Re: Strike Brigades (SDSR 15)

Post by whitelancer »

Will we ever see the Strike Brigade's ?
Given the number of changes that have been made over the last decade in the Army's structure it would be a surprise to see the Strick Brigade's survive to become operational in 2025. Mind with such a lack of detail they could have virtually any composition and be labelled Strike Brigade's.
In truth I suspect nothing was really worked out at the time of the anouncment (a case of the government playing fantasy fleets!) it will be interesting to see what eventually emerges, if anything.

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ArmChairCivvy
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Re: Strike Brigades (SDSR 15)

Post by ArmChairCivvy »

There is a hint of "kit" driving structure, whereas force composition should be determined by other factors.

It is widely recognised that we need wheeled formations. "Medium" then needs a medium tank, too, so a recce vehicle becomes the "tank". So, we will have a hybrid formation that might still be fairly "rapid" but in reality it will have come about
- by the fact that the AJAX order (numbers) was set at a very low level
- that low level becoming lower still would push up the already high unit price to stratospheric heights

So, we trundle along with a minimal investment into the Chally force, to have something to hand and try to make it last until a credible next generation tank comes along (won't be anytime soon!)
- and, create a bridge to that distant future date by creating a force that will be similar in size to the "heavy" component, but much more deployable
- in 2025 we will still (probably) be 10 years away from getting a Chally replacement
Ever-lasting truths: Multi-year budgets/ planning by necessity have to address the painful questions; more often than not the Either-Or prevails over Both-And.
If everyone is thinking the same, then someone is not thinking (attributed to Patton)

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ArmChairCivvy
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Re: Strike Brigades (SDSR 15)

Post by ArmChairCivvy »

But the Defence Committee can be told that a division capable of manoeuvre warfare is in the making, by mixing and matching components of the Heavy and Medium forces
- that is what they requested from the SDSR, and Santa's factory is duly delivering (make believe)
Ever-lasting truths: Multi-year budgets/ planning by necessity have to address the painful questions; more often than not the Either-Or prevails over Both-And.
If everyone is thinking the same, then someone is not thinking (attributed to Patton)

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whitelancer
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Re: Strike Brigades (SDSR 15)

Post by whitelancer »

Given the Strike Brigades are not due to be operational until 2025 will they introduce an interim organisation? Perhaps with CVR(T) then Ajax when it arrives, with Mastiff as an interim MIV.

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Re: Strike Brigades (SDSR 15)

Post by ArmChairCivvy »

I doubt it as Mastiff is practically road-bound, and then it would be stretch of imagination to talk about manoeuvre warfare.

If MIVs come in as slowly as Ajax, I think the heavy protected mobility bns will be converted one by one, and only at the end of that those bns move over to Strike bds.

Now, three existing bdes losing three bns, will it make them 2... just like the number of Strike bdes?
Ever-lasting truths: Multi-year budgets/ planning by necessity have to address the painful questions; more often than not the Either-Or prevails over Both-And.
If everyone is thinking the same, then someone is not thinking (attributed to Patton)

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