UK Defence Forum

Early days talk (repeated on some renderings) while the Norwegian competition was still running.
- Just to fit two, JSM is slimmer (and longer) than the base missile (NSM).

ArmChairCivvy wrote: ↑03 Mar 2022, 06:31

TSharpe28 wrote: ↑03 Mar 2022, 02:59 SPEAR 1 (Paveway 4) has already been integrated on UK F-35B Lightning aircraft.

It's good to have a 'sovereign' backup when you have put yourself into a position when others make the decisions for you
- clawing back that 'backup' in the form of Tempest (switching one level up; at the a/c level) will cost a pretty penny... but I'm still all for it

I've stopped following what the JPO says (bcz it is not a grea indicator for what will actually happen). On that note, the latest F-35 deal (6o for Finland) was announced with the blurb that deliveries starting in 2025 will come with cruise missiles 'attached'. I just wonder which one will have been integrated?
- even zee Germans will be flashing the cash to have some free-fall! nukes attached to theirs; at least the integration is there

I'm trying to find the US contract for Block 4 shedule

Jdam wrote: ↑02 Mar 2022, 22:17 Is Jdam really that much cheaper than Pw4?

Over a third of the price...PWIV is expensive.

SW1 wrote: ↑02 Mar 2022, 22:18
The constant buy American cause it cheaper narrative.

What does this jdam with a laser nose do that a paveway 4 currently can’t?

If your past early days of war then why bother with putting it on f35 at all.

1) - I'd gladly see a UK developed cheaper munition see service, but we've had years to do so and seem to have failed. I hope Spear goes down that route as part of its spiral developments. As a family of munitions it holds real promise, but only if we really commit to it.

But if you could point out a UK built air launched anti-ship missile or UK built air launched mine system, none of which we have in our armoury at present I'd be grateful...ideally one that could be integrated across F-35, Typhoon and P-8 cheaply and easily though...that's why I'm advocating for this...

2) - It has a fuse that is designed to detonate under a ship...if you really want to sink a ship you put a large hole in it with a torpedo...or break its back. Fusing on current precision munitions that we possess is rather sub-optimal for the task.

3) - If you're past the early days of a war when an enemy's AD system is degraded why keep on lobbing hugely expensive munitions when others will do the same job....and PWIV is only 500lb...we could do with some larger munitions...JDAM will fit on F-35 and P-8 in a 1,000lb guise...

Timmymagic wrote: ↑04 Mar 2022, 11:08

SW1 wrote: ↑02 Mar 2022, 22:18
The constant buy American cause it cheaper narrative.

What does this jdam with a laser nose do that a paveway 4 currently can’t?

If your past early days of war then why bother with putting it on f35 at all.

1) - I'd gladly see a UK developed cheaper munition see service, but we've had years to do so and seem to have failed. I hope Spear goes down that route as part of its spiral developments. As a family of munitions it holds real promise, but only if we really commit to it.

But if you could point out a UK built air launched anti-ship missile or UK built air launched mine system, none of which we have in our armoury at present I'd be grateful...ideally one that could be integrated across F-35, Typhoon and P-8 cheaply and easily though...that's why I'm advocating for this...

2) - It has a fuse that is designed to detonate under a ship...if you really want to sink a ship you put a large hole in it with a torpedo...or break its back. Fusing on current precision munitions that we possess is rather sub-optimal for the task.

3) - If you're past the early days of a war when an enemy's AD system is degraded why keep on lobbing hugely expensive munitions when others will do the same job....and PWIV is only 500lb...we could do with some larger munitions...JDAM will fit on F-35 and P-8 in a 1,000lb guise...

So it is a buy American cause it’s cheaper post. Well paveway IV isn’t expensive for an all weather multi programmable weapon. I would like to know exactly how much this JDAM is for customers outside of the US with the laser nose kit and all, is it the US simply catching up with we’re paveway IV has been for years?. As paveway IV is on both UK F35, typhoon and protector and part of spear 1 development it covers the requirement, if memory severs I think the RAF used it to sink a boat in Libya. If the past few years has taught us anything it is national resilience in expendables and I think munitions fall into that category of vaccines and ppe, you can rely on no one but yourself when everyone needs them what price to you put on outsourcing it?

The UK doesn’t have an air launched anti ship missile because the requirement was retired with tornado and sea eagle. The requirement now sits with the RN and there blue water capability is principal SNN based and littoral is lynx based with sea venom. There’s nothing on p8 because there is beardy any money to run it as is left alone look at weapons integration the folly of buy American.

They keep lobbying paveway and the like because of the legal targeting requirements and a worry of civilian casualties when shooting at things, paveway IV has supposedly a penetrating warhead and of course stormshadow for very hardened targets.

Your probably looking to put these things increasingly on unmanned systems from hear on hence why protector and mosquito will imo have an ever increasing importance especially after the current conflict.

RAF F35s have joined Typhoons on NATO patrols flying from RAF Marham, Coningsby and Akrotiri with Tankers from Brize Norton

https://www.raf.mod.uk/news/articles/ra ... o-mission/

Less chance of the F35B being available on @HMSPWLS / @HMSQNLZ for any deployment soon then. We need more F35B so that can be used more easily by both RN & RAF.

It is important that the F-35s are operating from RAF Marham rather then being forward deployed. That does give the squadron more flexibility on taskings even if it means longer duration sorties.

When was the last confirmed delivery of new F-35B to Marham and how many?

3 delivered in Feb 3 more later this year

Tempest414 wrote: ↑09 Mar 2022, 09:12 3 delivered in Feb 3 more later this year

That should be 3rd of March .

jonas wrote: ↑09 Mar 2022, 14:24

Tempest414 wrote: ↑09 Mar 2022, 09:12 3 delivered in Feb 3 more later this year

That should be 3rd of March .

that was what I was thinking but had a quick look and it said Feb must have looked in the wrong place thanks

(Forces News) 8th March 2022
https://www.forces.net/raf/nato/raf-f-3 ... n-invasion

In case you miss it in the German Armed Forces thread...

https://www.reuters.com/world/europe/ge ... 022-03-14/

https://www.raf.mod.uk/news/articles/ra ... -exercise/

Royal Air Force F-35B Lightning fighter jets and Maritime Reconnaissance Aircraft are participating in Exercise Cold Response. This month-long exercise for land, sea and air forces trains over 30,000 troops from 27 nations to operate together in the largest cold weather exercise since the 1980s.

SW1 wrote: ↑15 Mar 2022, 14:01 https://www.raf.mod.uk/news/articles/ra ... -exercise/

Royal Air Force F-35B Lightning fighter jets and Maritime Reconnaissance Aircraft are participating in Exercise Cold Response. This month-long exercise for land, sea and air forces trains over 30,000 troops from 27 nations to operate together in the largest cold weather exercise since the 1980s.

So the RAF F-35B will be training with but not operating from HMS Prince of Wales.....

Both of which should be FAA assets.

Some good news...likely another 26 F-35B heading our way after 2025.

Enough to fill 2 carriers at least (just).

Part of me feels we shouldn't be giving Lockheed Martin any more money till we start getting our weapons integrated at something better than the current speed that can only be measure with wind erosion, 2027 for Meteor or worse "no definitive date" just isn't good enough.

Jdam wrote: ↑26 Apr 2022, 15:15 Enough to fill 2 carriers at least (just).

Part of me feels we shouldn't be giving Lockheed Martin any more money till we start getting our weapons integrated at something better than the current speed that can only be measure with wind erosion, 2027 for Meteor or worse "no definitive date" just isn't good enough.

To be honest it was looking for a while as if the final total would be 48 or 60, so 74 is a bit of a result. Hopefully, we can find some money as well to replace the lost airframe and add a few attrition reserves. Might even mean we could just about stand up a 4th squadron...5 x Sqn's of 12 is 60 aircraft...(obviously including an OCU). Just another 4-5 could potentially mean enough to do that and all the maintenance requirements.

A potential bit of good news is that these 26 will be from Lot 17 onwards. Thats the full fat Block IV model with all the new EW enhancements. That could also mean the RAF is likely to fund an upgrade of all of the existing fleet to that same standard to avoid the 'Fleet within Fleets' problem that has blighted other programmes. Lot 17 is when the F-35 really starts to exceed its promise...

So about the same size of fleet as the harrier GR was in the 00s

https://www.defensenews.com/air/2022/04 ... -complete/

In Monday’s report, GAO found that the cost of the F-35′s Block 4 modernization effort grew to $15.1 billion in 2021, $741 million more than the estimated cost in 2020.

Much of that increase was due to a $330 million increase in the estimated cost of the Technology Refresh 3 effort, an upgrade to the F-35′s hardware and software that seeks to improve its processing capability, display units and increased memory, GAO said. The development of Tech Refresh 3 has proven to be more complicated than expected, program officials told GAO, and has driven up the price tag.

Another $312 million in cost increases came from modernizing aging test aircraft supporting weapons development, as well as other testing and lab upgrades, the report found. Operational test and evaluation officials told GAO more flight test capacity is needed to ensure several Block 4 capabilities, including weapons integration, work properly.

Multiple problems with software, funding issues that halted software development for eight months in 2021, and the addition of new capabilities has also delayed the delivery of final Block 4 capabilities to 2029, three years later than originally expected.

Lockheed Martin, which builds the F-35, and program officials took several steps to improve its software development, including increased lab testing of software, improved and more consistent monitoring of software development, and lengthening the schedule for developing Block 4 software “drops” from six to 12 months, beginning in 2022.

Seems like more F35B are on order.......

https://ukdefencejournal.org.uk/britain ... f-35-jets/