F-35B Lightning (RAF & RN)

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Re: F-35B Lightning (RAF & RN)

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Re: F-35B Lightning (RAF & RN)

Post by Tempest414 »

I can only think that the 3 sqns she is talking about are 17 , 207 & 617 + 809 what a load of crap

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Re: F-35B Lightning (RAF & RN)

Post by wargame_insomniac »

Tempest414 wrote: 12 Jul 2022, 09:45 I can only think that the 3 sqns she is talking about are 17 , 207 & 617 + 809 what a load of crap
yes you are right.

From Navy Lookout:
"617 Squadron RAF - Frontline

809 Squadron RN - Frontline (not yet stood up)

207 Squadron RAF - OCU (Training)

17 Squadron RAF - OEU (Trials)"

So that is currently 1 frontline F35B squadron, 1 evaluation squadron in US and 1 training squadron in UK.
With no date announced when 809 Squadron will re-commission
:(

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Re: F-35B Lightning (RAF & RN)

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Aviation Week:
UK Eyes Increased F-35 Numbers Amid Advances On Capabilities, Capacity by Tony Osborne

On July 19, it will be a decade since Lockheed Martin delivered the UK’s first F-35 Joint Strike Fighter. Today, the aircraft is beginning to make its mark on the UK’s Royal Air Force (RAF) and Royal Navy.

British F-35s have made operational debuts from land and sea in the skies over Syria and Iraq, embarked and completed a transoceanic deployment aboard the UK’s new Queen Elizabeth-class aircraft carrier and advanced cooperation with other F-35 operators.
However, the program remains controversial in the UK because of its perceived high operating costs and the apparently glacial pace of the fleet buildup. Budget cutbacks have slowed the delivery rate, preventing a second front-line squadron from forming, and the Lightning Force—the joint Royal Air Force and Royal Navy construct that operates the aircraft—has struggled to hang on to personnel, in particular engineers.
Yet, officers remain positive about the outlook for the fighter. Even though 2022 was seen as a period of reset for the force after the eight-month Carrier Strike Group (CSG) 21 cruise to the Indo-Pacific region, the UK’s training system is delivering trained personnel, and the F-35 force has thrown itself into operations in Eastern Europe as part of reassurance initiatives and combat air patrols following Russia’s invasion of Ukraine.

“The original plan was this would be a reset year to regenerate capability,” Group Capt. Philip Marr, station commander of RAF Marham, the UK’s main F-35 operating base, tells Aviation Week. “They were literally straight back in [from the carrier deployment] supporting NATO partners.”

As well as flying combat air patrol sorties over Poland in conjunction with RAF Eurofighter Typhoons, the UK F-35s also conducted operations from Amari, Estonia, in deployments that were set up over days rather than weeks and months.
“The jet performed very well,” says Stewart Campbell, executive officer for 617 Sqdn., the UK front-line F-35 unit. “We were working seamlessly together [with Typhoon pilots], speaking to them, sharing information and sharing the same tanker even though we were operating out of a different country.”

Commanders are also continuing to absorb some 600 lessons learned from the CSG 21 deployment ahead of additional plans for F-35s to embark on the UK’s aircraft carriers later this year.

The UK dispatched eight F-35s on HMS Queen Elizabeth for the deployment, which were joined by 10 F-35Bs from the U.S. Marine Corps as well as Leonardo Merlin support helicopters. The deployment allowed the UK and Marine Corps F-35s to train with several international air forces and navies in Europe, the Middle East and Asia, despite the challenges of the COVID-19 pandemic. And the cruise was largely trouble-free until the loss of one UK F-35 during takeoff in the final weeks of the deployment. An accident report has yet to be published but is expected to attribute the loss to foreign object damage.

The UK dispatched eight F-35s on HMS Queen Elizabeth for the deployment, which were joined by 10 F-35Bs from the U.S. Marine Corps as well as Leonardo Merlin support helicopters. The deployment allowed the UK and Marine Corps F-35s to train with several international air forces and navies in Europe, the Middle East and Asia, despite the challenges of the COVID-19 pandemic. And the cruise was largely trouble-free until the loss of one UK F-35 during takeoff in the final weeks of the deployment. An accident report has yet to be published but is expected to attribute the loss to foreign object damage.

Among the outcomes from the deployment was the realization that the UK needs to put more personnel on the ship to support flight deck operations, enabling crew to be rotated on and off the hot flight deck more regularly. A significant success was the embarking of two UK Deployable Mission Rehearsal Trainers (DMRT) onto the ship. These ISO containers include mission simulators that allow the pilots to maintain currency of emergency skills while onboard the ship, rather than traveling to their home base to use simulators there. U.S. Marine Corps pilots performed some 550 sorties in the simulators during the CSG voyage, BAE Systems officials say.

Closer to home, the UK Lightning Force is also helping the UK’s other F-35 community to grow. Just 29 mi. down the road from Marham, is RAF Lakenheath, home of the U.S. Air Force’s first F-35 units in Europe. However, the construction of the infrastructure to support Lakenheath’s planned fleet of 54 aircraft is behind schedule, so USAF pilots are using the four full-mission simulators at Marham’s Integrated Training Center to maintain currency (AW&ST Dec. 6-19, 2021, p. 28). Commanders from both sides are hoping to enhance this relationship further in the coming weeks, with Marham- and Lakenheath-based F-35s set to fly together in the Point Blank combined air operations exercises.

The UK and U.S. would like to link Marham’s full-mission simulators with those at Lakenheath RAF so Royal Navy and USAF crews can train together in the virtual world.

In the fall, the second of the UK’s carriers, HMS Prince of Wales, will head to the Eastern Seaboard of the U.S. for the third round of developmental testing (DT). DT-3 will complete the operational envelope for operations from the Queen Elizabeth-class ships, including the Shipborne Rolling Vertical Landing (SRVL) capability that helps avoid the need to jettison expensive, heavy weapons before carrier landings. It will also enable carrier operations with external stores, allow the F-35s to begin operating in higher sea states and confirm the use of Power Nozzle Braking to provide additional braking action after an SRVL. HMS Prince of Wales will be used for the trials because it is the only one of the two ships fitted with the Bedford Array approach glideslope lighting system.

The Lightning Force hopes to establish a second front-line squadron during the next two years as more F-35s are delivered.

The UK so far has taken delivery of 23 of the 48 F-35Bs it has on order. Three of those aircraft are based in the U.S. to support operational test and evaluation. Deliveries of the first tranche of aircraft are due to be complete in 2026-27.

Commitments made in 2015 for the UK to purchase a full complement of 138 aircraft were softened in last year’s Integrated Review of Security, Defense, Development and Foreign Policy, which stated that the UK would be committed to the F-35 platform for the life of the Queen Elizabeth-class aircraft carriers. Negotiations are underway for the delivery of a second tranche of 26 aircraft, which would take the fleet to 76 aircraft overall, allowing the formation of three front-line squadrons equipped with between 12 and 16 aircraft at a time. Buys beyond that are likely to depend on the outcome of the business case submission for the UK’s Tempest Future Combat Air System, which will be decided at the end of 2024 and will help determine whether the UK and its partners pursue development of a new-generation combat aircraft or if more F-35s are the fallback option.

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Re: F-35B Lightning (RAF & RN)

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Ron5 wrote: 19 Jul 2022, 17:38 The UK so far has taken delivery of 23 of the 48 F-35Bs it has on order. Three of those aircraft are based in the U.S. to support operational test and evaluation. Deliveries of the first tranche of aircraft are due to be complete in 2026-27.
2028 a year to look forward to: both carriers can have an airwing, their premier escorts are all likely to have been PIP'ped, upgraded as for swarm-attack defences and the £ 2 bn for ABM defences having fielded something (IOC?) by then.
- now, when will we be hearing about anti-ship weapons for our F-35Bs? Attack may be the best (but not the only) form of defence... assuming 8-) that one has the 'means' for it
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Re: F-35B Lightning (RAF & RN)

Post by Timmymagic »

For anyone who still thinks JSM is arriving in the next couple of years on F-35..., not that long ago some were predicting it would be operational in 2022/23. They're just starting to do some fit tests...there will be reviews following this, then environmental tests, followed by reviews, then carriage tests, followed by reviews, then drop tests of inert shapes, followed by reviews, then some early firing trials, followed by reviews, more complex firing trials, followed by reviews...etc etc. Its early days...and its a complex networked munition. Not sure if it will actually be available this side of 2026...


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Re: F-35B Lightning (RAF & RN)

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While I agree the JSM will not be appearing on the F-35 no time soon, i remember them doing separation tests.

https://www.navalnews.com/naval-news/20 ... rom-f-35a/

Is the JSM now in production is that a production model they are now testing?

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Re: F-35B Lightning (RAF & RN)

Post by Timmymagic »

Some good news...at least you'd think it is....but I'm not so sure...

The report says....

"48 F-35B Lightning aircraft are on contract. We have made provision to buy additional aircraft, and our planning assumption is that we will purchase additional F-35B Lightning aircraft, but this remains subject to negotiation. One of these is a replacement of the one lost during CSG 21. The approvals for the advanced electronically scanned array radar programme are complete and will see a prototype radar, ready for integration and flight trials on Typhoon, in 2023.”

That doesn't actually state that it is an additional F-35 to the already existing plans to increase the number...just that one of the aircraft ordered will be considered a replacement....

Think UKDJ has fallen for some Ministry obfuscation.....it might turn out that there is in fact an additional one added into the plans, but I don't think we can be certain of that from this release.


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Re: F-35B Lightning (RAF & RN)

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47 (+1 crashed ZM152/BK-18) then

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Re: F-35B Lightning (RAF & RN)

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SKB wrote: 02 Aug 2022, 12:19 47 (+1 crashed ZM152/BK-18) then
At present even the use of 'contracted' is debateable. We've actually only contracted 35 F-35B (including the crashed aircraft). The final order for 13 of the initial 48 has not been made.

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Re: F-35B Lightning (RAF & RN)

Post by Zeno »

Would it be feasible for some CH-47s to be equipped as an aerial refuelling service to extend the range of the f35bs ?

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Re: F-35B Lightning (RAF & RN)

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Not fast enough!
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Re: F-35B Lightning (RAF & RN)

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Not enough Range AND Not enough fuel capacity AND Insufficient “Marinisation” AND Lack of Power Folding Rotor Heads (Necessary for use on a “Strike” Carrier if they were not to have detrimental effects on Flight Deck (and Hangar) Operations and Movements. :mrgreen:

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Re: F-35B Lightning (RAF & RN)

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Zeno wrote: 07 Aug 2022, 10:35 Would it be feasible for some CH-47s to be equipped as an aerial refuelling service to extend the range of the f35bs ?
No.

The speed that the F-35 would have to drop to to maintain station behind a CH-47 loaded with fuel and a refuelling kit would require the F-35 to be running with its engine and fan at full power. You'd be burning more fuel that you were actually managing to get onboard....

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Re: F-35B Lightning (RAF & RN)

Post by Little J »

Would the hose even be stable at whatever low speed the Chinook could maintain???

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Re: F-35B Lightning (RAF & RN)

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Little J wrote: 08 Aug 2022, 11:31 Would the hose even be stable at whatever low speed the Chinook could maintain???
Yes, after all MH-47 can refuel from KC-130. But F-35 refuelling from MC-130 are going as slow as they can, with the KC-130 going as fast as it can. With a CH-47 refuelling from an KC-130 the situation would be exactly reversed...total non-starter.

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Re: F-35B Lightning (RAF & RN)

Post by Little J »

I know they can receive, I meant to give...



*should have made that clearer, sorry.

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Re: F-35B Lightning (RAF & RN)

Post by Timmymagic »

Little J wrote: 08 Aug 2022, 15:43 I know they can receive, I meant to give...
Not sure if there have ever been any real attempts at helo to helo AAR. But the drogues seem to remain stable when a CH-53 approaches one. I expect the interactions between 2 helos would be something no-one would be too keen to test though...

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Re: F-35B Lightning (RAF & RN)

Post by Zeno »

The reason I asked about Chinooks refuelling the f35b is because of hearing Singapore would be doing such, equipping its new Chinooks with "fatcow" tanks

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Re: F-35B Lightning (RAF & RN)

Post by Little J »

If that's so, then it will probably be ground refuelling, not air-air.

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Re: F-35B Lightning (RAF & RN)

Post by Timmymagic »

Zeno wrote: 09 Aug 2022, 13:13 The reason I asked about Chinooks refuelling the f35b is because of hearing Singapore would be doing such, equipping its new Chinooks with "fatcow" tanks
That will be a ground basd FARP. A significant number of the UK's Chinook fleet also have the larger sponson fuel tanks. But it wouldn't be ahuge amount of offload to an F-35B...you'd still want some rubber fuel bladders underslung.

Chinook was originally purchased specifically to support the RAF's Harrier GR fleet in W Germany in the late 70's...

But the only convincing FARP I've seen to date with F-35B has been USMC KC-130J.

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Re: F-35B Lightning (RAF & RN)

Post by mrclark303 »

Timmymagic wrote: 08 Aug 2022, 17:56
Little J wrote: 08 Aug 2022, 15:43 I know they can receive, I meant to give...
Not sure if there have ever been any real attempts at helo to helo AAR. But the drogues seem to remain stable when a CH-53 approaches one. I expect the interactions between 2 helos would be something no-one would be too keen to test though...
I would think the retreating blade drag turbulence of the Tanker helicopter, would make Helo to Helo AAR 'rather dicey' unless it's carried out in the most benign of conditions.

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Re: F-35B Lightning (RAF & RN)

Post by mrclark303 »

Timmymagic wrote: 09 Aug 2022, 17:12
Zeno wrote: 09 Aug 2022, 13:13 The reason I asked about Chinooks refuelling the f35b is because of hearing Singapore would be doing such, equipping its new Chinooks with "fatcow" tanks
That will be a ground basd FARP. A significant number of the UK's Chinook fleet also have the larger sponson fuel tanks. But it wouldn't be ahuge amount of offload to an F-35B...you'd still want some rubber fuel bladders underslung.

Chinook was originally purchased specifically to support the RAF's Harrier GR fleet in W Germany in the late 70's...

But the only convincing FARP I've seen to date with F-35B has been USMC KC-130J.
I suppose it fits in with the USMC model of operations
I don't think the RN/ RAF have any intention of risking our precious few F35B assets at forward operating bases, unless we were facing a dire emergency that required it.

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Re: F-35B Lightning (RAF & RN)

Post by Timmymagic »

Gabrielle has a new thread on UK F-35 deliveries..



Image

Having read it it doesn't change the previous delivery profile that I've worked up. But it needs an update anyway..
As far as I can tell the only potential thing that might change is that the UK's slower pace of deliveries might result in some aircraft getting delivered at a higher standard than if the earlier profile had been followed. It all depends when developments are cut into production.

Here's the delivery timeline again...any changes since last time in Red

So of the UK's '48' here's the status:
Note - Delivery is 'usually' a minimum of 2 years after order.

Delivered to date (N.B. Dates below are order date)

LRIP 1 - April 2007 - No UK Orders, (US F-35A only)
LRIP 2 - July 2007 - No UK Orders (6 F-35B for USMC, first F-35B order)
LRIP 3 - May 2008 - 2 x UK F-35B order - Test aircraft for ITF (not combat capable)
LRIP 4 - Nov 2009 - 1 x UK F-35B order - First 'Combat Capable' aircraft - BK-03
LRIP 5 - Dec 2011 - No UK Orders
LRIP 6 - Sept 2013 - No UK Orders
LRIP 7 - Sept 2013 - 1 x UK F-35B Order - Additional Test aircraft for ITF (not combat capable)
LRIP 8 - Nov 2014 - 4 x UK F-35B Order
LRIP 9 - Nov 2015 - 6 x UK F-35B Order
LRIP 10 - 2016 - 3 x UK F-35B Order
LRIP 11 - 2017 - 1 x UK F-35B Order (ZM-152, written off in accident in the Med operating from QE in Nov 22)
LRIP 12 - Nov 2018 - 3 x UK F-35B Order
LRIP 13 - Nov 2018 - 6 x UK F-35B Order - Part order delivered in Oct 21 consisting of 3 a/c, remaining 3 a/c delivered Feb 22

Total - 27 Delivered - Consisting of 24 'Combat Capable' F-35B and 3 F-35B ITF test aircraft.

On Order, Not delivered - (N.B. LRIP's 12, 13 and 14 were ordered simultaneously as a 'Bulk Buy')

LRIP 14 - Nov 2018 - 8 x UK F-35B Order - 3 a/c from this order likely to be delivered in 2022, the remaining 5 a/c will be delivered in 2023

N.B. - LRIP 13 and 14 were affected by COVID delays. LRIP 14's 3 a/c for delivery in 2022, on the revised schedule, might turn up at the back end of the year in the normal UK delivery rhythm.

Total - 8 contracted, being manufactured

Next Steps
Full Rate Pricing appears to no longer be used to describe future buys. Instead they are using 'Lots', this has been used previously in relation to production, it might be that over time previous 'Lots' that have been referred to as LRIP (Low Rate Initial Production) batches get referred to as 'Lots' as well.

Lot 15 - 2023 - 2 x UK F-35B (2023 deliveries likely to include 5 from LRIP 14 as well, for 7 a/c total)
Lot 16 - 2024 - 4 x UK F-35B
Lot 17 - 2025 - 7 x UK F-35B (These were all previously expected by 2024 at latest)

N.B. - Worth noting that the production timeline appears to be c2 years from order to delivery. It now appears that the aircraft in Lot 15 are being produced even though the full contract has yet to be signed as negotiations are still underway. Presumably the purchasers have given LM some guarantees. All Lot 15, 16 and 17 a/c will still be delivered by December 2025 according to MoD. Important to note that most deliveries to the UK tend to happen at the end of the year. This should be taken into account when standing up of new Sqn's is mentioned. It's hard to see, with the re-scheduling and loss of a recent block aircraft (ZM152), that 809 NAS stand up to operational status will not be affected by up to a year.

Total - 13 Promised/Confirmed will be ordered by MoD (Will the MoD order an additional a/c to replace the lost F-35B?)

Further Notes and Remarks
- UK MoD has confirmed that an additional 26 x F-35B will be ordered following on from Lot 17. This wil mean a total order of 74 aircraft for the UK. This consists of 3, non-combat capable, test aircraft operated out of Edwards AFB with 17 (TES) and 70, combat capable, aircraft operated by 207 Sqn OCU, 617 Sqn and 809 NAS (when formed) out of RAF Marham. This would have been 71 a/c if ZM152 had not been lost off HMS Queen Elizabeth in Nov. 2022 in an accident on take-off.
- UK MoD have mentioned a 'replacement' for ZM152. However it is unclear if this is an additional aircraft (27 a/c instead of 26 ordered) or if in classic MoD Doublespeak 1 of the, to be ordered, 26 aircraft is designated as the 'replacement'....smart money would be on the latter...
- RAF Marham rebuilding is still underway but progressing well, its going to be a tight squeeze with 70 aircraft there though...no funding is available to refurbish another base however, even as a less tailored, alternate location.
- RAF Lakenheath upgrades for the USAF F-35A units is delayed.This might mean that some USAF F-35A are temporarily based at Marham or at the least require use of some of the facilities (maintenance and simulation) until theirs are fully complete.
- Lot 15 a/c onwards will have the TR3 Central Processor Upgrade
- Lot 17 a/c onwards will be the 'full fat' Block IV capable aircraft with enhanced EW capabilities (additional aerials around the aircraft amongst other changes).
- USMC is planning to upgrade all of its F-35B to Lot 17 standard to have a standard block across their combat capable fleet. As the USMC have purchased large numbers of aircraft in earlier batches this will be expensive. A decision has yet to be taken on earlier aircraft where upgrade costs will be significant. These could be retired or relegated to test/training/aggressor roles in order to save funds.
- Pathway for UK upgrades has yet to be revealed, however, given that the other main F-35B user, the USMC, is going to upgrade to Lot 17 across the board it is likely that the UK will follow this path. The USMC will effectively prove and de-risk the approach, the UK following an alternate route would increase risk massively and would be unlikely to save much money. Overall, it is likely to be good news for the UK's F-35B fleet as Lot 17 will have the greatest capabilities. As the UK's delivery profile has been far slower than the USMC's there is only 1 aircraft (ZM137, BK-03) that is potentially in the 'too expensive to upgrade' category. The UK will either bite the bullet and upgrade, retire or move it into a test/training role. Its worth noting that ZM137 is 5 years older than any of the UK's other combat capable aircraft and will be 15 years old when Block IV is complete (2027-28). RAF in particular is desperate to avoid the 'Fleets within Fleets' issue that has plagued other programmes. Huge amounts of work have been done on Typhoon to try and resolve this...
- UK MoD have also contracted a seperate upgrade of the Distributed Aperture System (DAS) for all of its F-35B. This improves capability dramatically and removes obsolescent systems. The upgrade is apparently Plug and Play and can be undertaken in normal maintenance. Its important to note that this does not include the seperate chin-mounted EOTS (Electro-Optical Targeting System, i.e. the laser designation system). It's likely that this will need an upgrade in due course (Advanced EOTS has been developed, but I'm unsure if it is ordered yet or if it is just cut into production later on, or if it is a plug and play upgrade like the new DAS). Its worth noting that some of the newer podded solutions, like Litening V, already exceed the original EOTS capabilities. But every F-35 has EOTS and targeting pods are always a capability that is in short supply for other platforms.
- UK Weapons will continue to be Legacy Asraam, Amraam C-5 and Paveway IV. Amraam D-3 should arrive in 2023 and takeover from C-5. No gun pods will be ordered. This will remain unchanged until 2027/8 when Asraam Blk. VI (formerly called CSP), Meteor, Spear and Paveway IV Penetrator arrive. Spear-EW continues to be mentioned, but no contractual news has been heard since the demonstration contract was awarded (or any hint of results of that). Its unclear if Spear-EW will need further integration works beyond those for Spear. My guess is it will need software work to get the full benefit...
- USMC have also now got external tanks for the B variant on their roadmap. Expect the UK will jump onboard this when it arrives.
- No news on internal baggage pods for the B variant yet.
- Worth noting that of the 3 x UK F-35B in Lot 14 that were expected in November(ish) this year, none have been observed outside of the factory flying yet, usually at least one of the late year deliveries is in the air by now, might be something or nothing... UPDATE 05/09/22 BK-28, ZM182, has been photographed on a test flight in late July 2022 so is finished.
- Also worth remembering that although Block IV capability will arrive (as planned at present) in full by 2027/28 from the manufacturers, the UK's full fleet of F-35B might not be upgraded to that standard until 2030. It will take time to upgrade older aircraft and could impact operations when they are out of action for upgrade. Either way it won't be an overnight move for more than a small number of aircraft. Lot 17 will just be a quick software update, prior to Lot 15 will require the TR3 Processor upgrade, all prior to Lot 17 will require the additional EW antenna as well.
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Re: F-35B Lightning (RAF & RN)

Post by SW1 »

Interim report of the f35 crash in the med

https://assets.publishing.service.gov.u ... Report.pdf

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