F-35B Lightning (RAF & RN)

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R686
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Re: F-35B Lightning (RAF & RN)

Post by R686 »

Jensy wrote: 09 Dec 2023, 23:50 The U.S. Military Industrial Complex strikes back:



If true IMHO that’s good more aircraft for the £ current F35B should be navy owned and operated but maintenance costs shared between RAF/RN

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Re: F-35B Lightning (RAF & RN)

Post by mr.fred »

R686 wrote: 10 Dec 2023, 09:38 If true IMHO that’s good more aircraft for the £ current F35B should be navy owned and operated but maintenance costs shared between RAF/RN
I'd expect any cost savings in the purchase to be eaten up by running two* maintenance/training pipelines, plus it provides a wedge between disparate forces for inter-service rivalries to exploit. More B's if anything, else put the funds into proper engineering support to avoid embarrassing take-off failures.

*maybe not two due to the similarities between aircraft, but more than one.

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Re: F-35B Lightning (RAF & RN)

Post by wargame_insomniac »

Jensy wrote: 09 Dec 2023, 23:50 The U.S. Military Industrial Complex strikes back:

Is this the same Nicholas Drumond who was ecently advocating "gifting" all of UK Challenger MBT to Ukraine and UK then buying Leopard II to replace them? Whilst being employed by IIRC KNDS!!

I wonder if he also has a consultancy agrement with LM.....
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Re: F-35B Lightning (RAF & RN)

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he almost certainly has...

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Jensy
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Re: F-35B Lightning (RAF & RN)

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wargame_insomniac wrote: 10 Dec 2023, 21:38 Is this the same Nicholas Drumond who was ecently advocating "gifting" all of UK Challenger MBT to Ukraine and UK then buying Leopard II to replace them? Whilst being employed by IIRC KNDS!!

I wonder if he also has a consultancy agrement with LM.....
Suspect more a case of helping out a fellow 'advisor'. The commentariat is something of a closed circle.

Although I still broadly think JSF was the right choice, we've hardly done well out of it. As soon as F136 went south the UK's value proposition got weaker and weaker. More so with LiftFan production being offshored.

If we want more FJs before GCAP we have a Typhoon production line about to end.
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Re: F-35B Lightning (RAF & RN)

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Jensy wrote: 10 Dec 2023, 23:40
wargame_insomniac wrote: 10 Dec 2023, 21:38 Is this the same Nicholas Drumond who was ecently advocating "gifting" all of UK Challenger MBT to Ukraine and UK then buying Leopard II to replace them? Whilst being employed by IIRC KNDS!!

I wonder if he also has a consultancy agrement with LM.....
Suspect more a case of helping out a fellow 'advisor'. The commentariat is something of a closed circle.

Although I still broadly think JSF was the right choice, we've hardly done well out of it. As soon as F136 went south the UK's value proposition got weaker and weaker. More so with LiftFan production being offshored.

If we want more FJs before GCAP we have a Typhoon production line about to end.
It's weird how no-one else in the Defence Aerospace world seems to be in contact with these 'RAF sources' apart from Nicholas....they're always baffled....
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Re: F-35B Lightning (RAF & RN)

Post by mrclark303 »

Timmymagic wrote: 11 Dec 2023, 08:06
Jensy wrote: 10 Dec 2023, 23:40
wargame_insomniac wrote: 10 Dec 2023, 21:38 Is this the same Nicholas Drumond who was ecently advocating "gifting" all of UK Challenger MBT to Ukraine and UK then buying Leopard II to replace them? Whilst being employed by IIRC KNDS!!

I wonder if he also has a consultancy agrement with LM.....
Suspect more a case of helping out a fellow 'advisor'. The commentariat is something of a closed circle.

Although I still broadly think JSF was the right choice, we've hardly done well out of it. As soon as F136 went south the UK's value proposition got weaker and weaker. More so with LiftFan production being offshored.

If we want more FJs before GCAP we have a Typhoon production line about to end.
It's weird how no-one else in the Defence Aerospace world seems to be in contact with these 'RAF sources' apart from Nicholas....they're always baffled....
Well quite, theres only two ways the RAF is getting the A, one a collapse of GCAP, F35A would without any doubt fill the gap.

B, an unlikely Cold War 2.0 expansion of the RAF, were F35A serves alongside Tempest in an enlarged fast jet force.

A is always a possibility, B is highly unlikely.
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Re: F-35B Lightning (RAF & RN)

Post by Jensy »

Timmymagic wrote: 11 Dec 2023, 08:06
Jensy wrote: 10 Dec 2023, 23:40
wargame_insomniac wrote: 10 Dec 2023, 21:38 Is this the same Nicholas Drumond who was ecently advocating "gifting" all of UK Challenger MBT to Ukraine and UK then buying Leopard II to replace them? Whilst being employed by IIRC KNDS!!

I wonder if he also has a consultancy agrement with LM.....
Suspect more a case of helping out a fellow 'advisor'. The commentariat is something of a closed circle.

Although I still broadly think JSF was the right choice, we've hardly done well out of it. As soon as F136 went south the UK's value proposition got weaker and weaker. More so with LiftFan production being offshored.

If we want more FJs before GCAP we have a Typhoon production line about to end.
It's weird how no-one else in the Defence Aerospace world seems to be in contact with these 'RAF sources' apart from Nicholas....they're always baffled....
"You don't know them. They went to a different Cranwell...."

mrclark303 wrote: 11 Dec 2023, 08:35 Well quite, theres only two ways the RAF is getting the A, one a collapse of GCAP, F35A would without any doubt fill the gap.

B, an unlikely Cold War 2.0 expansion of the RAF, were F35A serves alongside Tempest in an enlarged fast jet force.

A is always a possibility, B is highly unlikely.
Even if, by some miracle, 'B' came to pass we'd probably be waiting till the late 2040s (at a minimum) to get FC/ASW or anything else integrated.
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Re: F-35B Lightning (RAF & RN)

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(Forces News) 11th December 2023
The rebirth of the unit comes 82 years after the squadron was first stood up in 1941, since when it has operated the likes of the Fulmar, Sea Venom, Harrier and Buccaneer. 809 NAS becomes the first Royal Navy unit to fly the new stealth aircraft, operating alongside 617 Squadron, The Dambusters.
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Re: F-35B Lightning (RAF & RN)

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F-35 PEO USAF Lt. Gen. Michael Schmidt warning Congress future upgrades at risk and a possible production shutdown due to concurrency problems with the TR-3/Block 4 upgrade intended to bring the F-35 up to FOC standard by ability to carry more weapons (incl. Meteor), better recognise targets, and improve its electronic warfare capabilities.

The Block 4 programme cost estimated at $16.5 billion, includes 80 new capabilities and isn’t expected to be completed until 2029.

PS The US government is currently not accepting newly built F-35s intended to have TR-3 installed, because it cannot carry out the necessary check flights.

https://www.defensenews.com/air/2023/12 ... -possible/

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Re: F-35B Lightning (RAF & RN)

Post by inch »

Better get on building that GCAP fighter asap with sufficient numbers for RAF

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Re: F-35B Lightning (RAF & RN)

Post by leonard »

Please watched till the end their only love for the F35B !!!!
Feel free to comment your opinion especially on the scamming part ??????
https://x.com/AeroBuzzfr/status/1739599 ... 45898?s=20
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Re: F-35B Lightning (RAF & RN)

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leonard wrote: 27 Dec 2023, 15:00 Please watched till the end their only love for the F35B !!!!
Feel free to comment your opinion especially on the scamming part ??????
https://x.com/AeroBuzzfr/status/1739599 ... 45898?s=20
Anyone able to translate 😅
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Re: F-35B Lightning (RAF & RN)

Post by Timmymagic »

Timmymagic wrote: 27 Sep 2023, 18:00 It's approaching that time of year when another delivery happens...

Should be another flying shortly (BK-35/ZM169). Probably delivered together in late October/early November based on previous delivery cycles. The only question is if BK-31 which has been at Edwards AFB also comes over at the same time. If the 2 are delivered we'll be up to 30 aircraft at Marham. If all 3 then up to 31...

Just an update on the above as there hasn't been one for a while (last full delivery schedule write-up can be seen on my post from the 25th August 23 (Page 236 of the thread).

BK-35/ZM169 was flying in October 2023. But has not yet been delivered with the usual delivery timeframe missed. There are currently 3 x UK F-35B in the US (that we know of) awaiting delivery to the UK. Whether or not the UK has put a halt on deliveries in solidarity with the USAF over TR-3 is unknown. One of the 3 aircraft had its first flight 9 months ago in April 23 but has yet to fly to the UK...there may also be a further 2 x F-35B that have been manufactured but either haven't flown (or haven't been spotted doing so) or have been parked up with other TR-3 affected aircraft.

If they have been parked up, based on the current TR-3 delays and predicted resolution, we might not see them until much later this year....we could get a bumper delivery....

At present we have 3 x F-35B in the US awaiting delivery flights to the UK (and possibly TR-3), and Lot 15 and 16 aircraft due this year (2 and 4 a/c respectively) for 9 x F-35B scheduled to be deivered to the RAF this year. By the sounds of it the TR-3 delays are causing a log jam....we might end up with aircraft getting pushed into 2025....or a large delivery to the UK, of near a full squadrons worth, at the back end of the year...

The last 7 of the '48' are due in 2025..
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Re: F-35B Lightning (RAF & RN)

Post by Ron5 »

F-35 value to UK ‘significantly higher' than before says Lockheed Martin

https://www.janes.com/defence-news/news ... eed-martin

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Re: F-35B Lightning (RAF & RN)

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Ron5 wrote: 30 Jan 2024, 15:00 F-35 value to UK ‘significantly higher' than before says Lockheed Martin

https://www.janes.com/defence-news/news ... eed-martin
I'd love to see their workings....bet they don't provide them to anyone....if MoD try and make the claim again the Defence Committee will demand proof...

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Re: F-35B Lightning (RAF & RN)

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Timmymagic wrote: 31 Jan 2024, 12:32
Ron5 wrote: 30 Jan 2024, 15:00 F-35 value to UK ‘significantly higher' than before says Lockheed Martin

https://www.janes.com/defence-news/news ... eed-martin
I'd love to see their workings....bet they don't provide them to anyone....if MoD try and make the claim again the Defence Committee will demand proof...
We do know they include money spent in the US with British owned companies. I'm sure some of that money gets back to the UK but how much I haven't a clue. I suspect most of the increase mentioned is such spending.

However put me on the side that says F-35 has had, and will continue to have, a huge positive influence on UK financials. But I do see the loss in industrial benefits. Afterall the dominance of F-35 in the fighter market has a lot to do with it's lack of competitors. That's a deliberate outcome of the F-35 program in hoovering up potential competitors as program partners.

Tempest promises to break that monopoly if it's done correctly. F-35 sets a high bar in combat capability and friendly financials, but I think that program has enough weaknesses to be exploited, not the least being the millstone of having to support three not very common variants. Anyhoo the competition, F-35 vs Tempest, will be fun to watch.

Right now I see the next Labour government being the biggest Tempest problem. Tossers would delight in cancelling. Next biggest threat would be the next Tory government, I'm sure they have another Geo Osborne waiting in the wings.

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Re: F-35B Lightning (RAF & RN)

Post by Gtal »

If the F35 is such a good deal financially then why has either the MOD or LM or *somebody* managed to answer, on several occasions in person, the Defence Committees ask to be given just a rough ballpark guesstimate of the likely costs to the UK taxpayer, wether up until this point or through life or even just the buy itself + upgrade to block 4?
Why would they literally outright refuse to offer any figures save the fata morgana projected out of LM's marketing brochure...


By the way, some nerdy journos have pointed out that funds allocated by congress as one-offs specifically for the procurement of F35s covering several years already add up to a low 8 figure overshoot to what LMs still claims today as the unit costs..

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Re: F-35B Lightning (RAF & RN)

Post by Ron5 »

Gtal wrote: 05 Feb 2024, 02:32 If the F35 is such a good deal financially then why has either the MOD or LM or *somebody* managed to answer, on several occasions in person, the Defence Committees ask to be given just a rough ballpark guesstimate of the likely costs to the UK taxpayer, wether up until this point or through life or even just the buy itself + upgrade to block 4?
Why would they literally outright refuse to offer any figures save the fata morgana projected out of LM's marketing brochure...


By the way, some nerdy journos have pointed out that funds allocated by congress as one-offs specifically for the procurement of F35s covering several years already add up to a low 8 figure overshoot to what LMs still claims today as the unit costs..
In all the recent international fighter competitions, the F-35 has had the lowest initial costs and the lowest lifetime costs. Currently 18 countries have purchased F-35 with another 4 close.
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Re: F-35B Lightning (RAF & RN)

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Means practically nothing
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Re: F-35B Lightning (RAF & RN)

Post by new guy »

Maybe we all misinterpreted the Batch 2 order as batch 1+ batch 2 = 74. a.k.a batch 2 = 26/27 when it is actually batch 2 = 74.

:lol: :lol:

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Re: F-35B Lightning (RAF & RN)

Post by Scimitar54 »

So batch three would need to be 13 then ??? Total Tosh!

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Re: F-35B Lightning (RAF & RN)

Post by Jdam »

So going back to the 138 number (press x for doubt), I wonder if this is connected to Lockheed Martin saying how good the F-35 was for the UK?

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Re: F-35B Lightning (RAF & RN)

Post by topman »

Plenty of time to order, 3 years from signing to arrival gives time to sort everything else out first.

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Re: F-35B Lightning (RAF & RN)

Post by topman »

Jdam wrote: 06 Feb 2024, 17:39 So going back to the 138 number (press x for doubt), I wonder if this is connected to Lockheed Martin saying how good the F-35 was for the UK?
I doubt it. The long and the short we can't afford 138 but the gov doesn't want to admit it. So it plays games with words.
We'd need at least one other base and hundreds of people for this fleet alone to hit 138.

We're short of bases people and money.

LM can release as many press statements as they like. Unless they had out f35s for free, their PR is bog roll.

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