F-35B Lightning (RAF & RN)

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Tiny Toy
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Re: F-35B Lightning II (RN & RAF)

Post by Tiny Toy »

bobp wrote:I can remember reading about the F35 back in the 1990's its now 2015, due to be in service with the RAF in 2018. That makes it at least 25 years old design wise. Thinking how computers and mobile phones have evolved in the last 25 years I wonder what is being thought of today. Some of the electronic parts used in the F35 will be obsolete soon surely.
Becoming obsolete before even being certified has to be a new level of military procurement incompetence. From Jane's:
"...fusion deficiencies sometimes result in an inaccurate battlefield picture being presented to pilots. The USMC has created workarounds that allow pilots to safely fly the aircraft by making manual adjustments..."
"...certification of all 10 aircraft, a prerequisite for IOC, remains incomplete. Certification requires all the jets to carry the same mission software configuration. Also, the digital logistics and maintenance system - the Autonomic Logistics Information System (ALIS) - must be working satisfactorily. For now, mechanics have created a workaround using a laptop."
"...even after IOC, the F-35B will be limited to escort, armed reconnaissance, close air support (CAS), and interdiction missions. The aircraft will also be lacking wing pylons that would allow it to carry thousands of pounds of extra ordnance and a gun pod. It will also be unable to carry the full complement of air-launched weapons or to stream video, Lt Gen Davis said."

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CR4ZYHOR5E
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Re: F-35B Lightning II (RN & RAF)

Post by CR4ZYHOR5E »

Is there an example of a military procurement programme that has been better (faster, cheaper, exceeding expectations) than that of the preceding procurement programme for any given mission requirement? For every one example cited, countless examples of protracted, late, expensive, underwhelming, compromised programmes can be offered.

Military procurement is a job creation scheme. Long, delayed and expensive appears to be the mission statement of most defence contractors.

Of course the F-35 isn't obsolete; that would require a superior alternative to be available (from an indigenous supplier). Thus, whilst one can theoretically speculate how technologies have matured since the the JSF design was originally conceived, I'm not sure that makes the case for obsolescence (of design).

The counter arguement is that military assets have become increasingly complex, have to do more (requirements) for less (money) - try saying the latter with a straight face - and that such programmes maintain key skills. I can understand that and have great admiration for the skill and effort that goes into developing something like the F-35.

Frustrations over the procurement process aside, the F-35 will be a great bit of kit.

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Re: F-35B Lightning II (RN & RAF)

Post by IrishT »

Tiny Toy wrote: Becoming obsolete before even being certified has to be a new level of military procurement incompetence. From Jane's:
"...fusion deficiencies sometimes result in an inaccurate battlefield picture being presented to pilots. The USMC has created workarounds that allow pilots to safely fly the aircraft by making manual adjustments..."
"...certification of all 10 aircraft, a prerequisite for IOC, remains incomplete. Certification requires all the jets to carry the same mission software configuration. Also, the digital logistics and maintenance system - the Autonomic Logistics Information System (ALIS) - must be working satisfactorily. For now, mechanics have created a workaround using a laptop."
"...even after IOC, the F-35B will be limited to escort, armed reconnaissance, close air support (CAS), and interdiction missions. The aircraft will also be lacking wing pylons that would allow it to carry thousands of pounds of extra ordnance and a gun pod. It will also be unable to carry the full complement of air-launched weapons or to stream video, Lt Gen Davis said."
I'm not sure the General understands the idea of stealth (saying nothing of the fact it does have wing pylons, and why he thinks you'd use a stealth-aircraft for armed escorts as opposed to SEAD/DEAd).

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Re: F-35B Lightning II (RN & RAF)

Post by Gabriele »

IrishT wrote:
Tiny Toy wrote: Becoming obsolete before even being certified has to be a new level of military procurement incompetence. From Jane's:
"...fusion deficiencies sometimes result in an inaccurate battlefield picture being presented to pilots. The USMC has created workarounds that allow pilots to safely fly the aircraft by making manual adjustments..."
"...certification of all 10 aircraft, a prerequisite for IOC, remains incomplete. Certification requires all the jets to carry the same mission software configuration. Also, the digital logistics and maintenance system - the Autonomic Logistics Information System (ALIS) - must be working satisfactorily. For now, mechanics have created a workaround using a laptop."
"...even after IOC, the F-35B will be limited to escort, armed reconnaissance, close air support (CAS), and interdiction missions. The aircraft will also be lacking wing pylons that would allow it to carry thousands of pounds of extra ordnance and a gun pod. It will also be unable to carry the full complement of air-launched weapons or to stream video, Lt Gen Davis said."
I'm not sure the General understands the idea of stealth (saying nothing of the fact it does have wing pylons, and why he thinks you'd use a stealth-aircraft for armed escorts as opposed to SEAD/DEAd).

It can have pylons, but external pylons and weapons carriage will only be released with Block 3F, as will gun employment. Block 2B and 3I only allow internal weapons. 2B and 3I were not originally intended to be used operationally.
As for the streaming video bit, the problem is that since ROVER did not even exist when the F-35 design was frozen, there currently isn't a video downlink capability planned (expected to be added with Block IV, unless an interim solution is adopted if requirement is assessed as urgent enough) but the aircraft can exchange still EOTS imagery with the JTAC. Not quite the same as full motion video, but it shouldn't be too dramatic. Even with 2B, for the USMC it'll be a marked step forwards in many ways from Harrier and Hornet. USN and USAF can mitigate the limitations considering that plenty of F-16s, Super Hornets and F-15s will be around for a long while still.
For the UK it is more of an issue, since mitigation will be wholly dependent on the Typhoon finally learning to mud move properly.
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Re: F-35B Lightning II (RN & RAF)

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The F35B is not just about stealth, sure its useful in early stages of a conflict, but later the mission will be to deliver weapons onto the battlefield. This is where the pylons come in useful allowing the plane to carry more bombs than the Harrier ever could. Also the impressive array of sensors the F35B carries gives the pilot a 360 degree view of the battlefield and the ability to locate enemy radars, SAM sites etcetera. Yes the plane has problems as its still in development but once they are ironed out and fixes found for the early production examples the RAF will have a good aeroplane.
I hope that the penny pinching politicians will find sufficient money to fully equip several squadrons of these aircraft. Because our armed forces have been depleted to the bone.

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Re: F-35B Lightning II (RN & RAF)

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bobp wrote:The F35B is not just about stealth, sure its useful in early stages of a conflict, but later the mission will be to deliver weapons onto the battlefield. This is where the pylons come in useful allowing the plane to carry more bombs than the Harrier ever could. Also the impressive array of sensors the F35B carries gives the pilot a 360 degree view of the battlefield and the ability to locate enemy radars, SAM sites etcetera. Yes the plane has problems as its still in development but once they are ironed out and fixes found for the early production examples the RAF will have a good aeroplane.
I hope that the penny pinching politicians will find sufficient money to fully equip several squadrons of these aircraft. Because our armed forces have been depleted to the bone.
Could not agree more.

I'm particularly interested in how the RN/RAF does at F-35 air combat. I think they will take the aircraft further in that direction than any other service and with Meteor and an upgraded ASRAAM, they'll have the weapons to do it.

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Re: F-35B Lightning II (RN & RAF)

Post by bobp »

I too would like to see the Meteor integrated onto the RAF and RN jets. Though I suspect that it will be a while before that happens as with other uk specific weapons it will depend on Software Block revisions.

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Re: F-35B Lightning II (RN & RAF)

Post by Jdam »

I think it will be Block 4 software at the earliest, so that's 2020 and since we still haven't heard anything from the MOD yet it might be even further away.

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Re: F-35B Lightning II (RN & RAF)

Post by RetroSicotte »

What I'd expect to see is the Typhoons swapping over to Meteor and transferring the Typhoon fleet AMRAAMs to the F-35's until Meteor enters service on it too. We already have the existing stock, after all.

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Re: F-35B Lightning II (RN & RAF)

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RetroSicotte wrote:What I'd expect to see is the Typhoons swapping over to Meteor and transferring the Typhoon fleet AMRAAMs to the F-35's until Meteor enters service on it too. We already have the existing stock, after all.
Something like that. Tiffies will be underutilised as an asset until Meteor is in service (BVR and all that).

The first sqdrn of F-35s will be a "first day of war" asset, i.e. a bomber. For self-defence these bombers will carry ASRAAM on stealth pylons, and the rest of the loadout internally. For other uses the AMRAAM would come in handy (bearing in mind that the current versions are inferior to Meteor). However, the clipped wings Meteor, to fit into the F-35B internal bay, is still an unfunded (though realistic) development.
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Re: F-35B Lightning II (RN & RAF)

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has the performance of the F35 been improved yet?

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Re: F-35B Lightning II (RN & RAF)

Post by Jdam »

U.S. Marines Partner with UK Allies in F-35B Operational Test Aboard USS Wasp
Sixteen Royal Navy and Royal Air Force members embedded aboard the ship during the operational tests. They serve as F-35 operational assessors, ship integration team members, aircraft technicians and maintenance crews.
https://www.f35.com/news/detail/u.s.-ma ... f9531342=1

Nothing really shocking in the article but its nice to know we are there.

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Re: F-35B Lightning II (RN & RAF)

Post by jonas »

Another article on the aircrafts deployement on Wasp.

http://www.defensenews.com/story/milita ... /27983193/

Some info on future block enhancements block 4 etc.

http://www.flightglobal.com/news/articl ... on-412762/

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Re: F-35B Lightning II (RN & RAF)

Post by Gabriele »

Bad news start early: a decision on whether to use MBDA Spear for SPEAR 3 or downgrade to US SDB II is being pushed out possibly to 2018. After such late decision, they also have to secure a place in the queue of weapons to integrate on the F-35.
We'll see SPEAR 3 on british F-35s, if we do see it, in the second half of the 2020s, not before, i'm afraid. http://www.defensenews.com/story/defens ... /28009331/
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Re: F-35B Lightning II (RN & RAF)

Post by Jdam »

Instead of settling for the SDB I wonder if they are trying to delay it a bit in order to work up the funds for the spear 3, anyway does that just leave Meteor decision for block 4 software?

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Re: F-35B Lightning II (RN & RAF)

Post by ArmChairCivvy »

jonas wrote:Another article on the aircrafts deployement on Wasp.

http://www.defensenews.com/story/milita ... /27983193/

Some info on future block enhancements block 4 etc.

http://www.flightglobal.com/news/articl ... on-412762/
""Other weapons being considered for Block 4 include Raytheon’s Small Diameter Bomb II and Kongsberg’s Joint Strike Missile"
- my recollection is that the Norgies said we ain't buying the plane if JSM is not going to be part of Block 4 (they became the first to confirm a proper order, rather than just tipping in the toe with some test planes)... how is that vote of ours doing as to which missile should be fitted onto RN vessels for strike (land or anti-ship)?
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Re: F-35B Lightning II (RN & RAF)

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A great video of the F-35 at sea, I'm surprised how little deck space they are using to get the F-35 into the air also nice and smooth when it comes in to land :)

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Re: F-35B Lightning II (RN & RAF)

Post by CR4ZYHOR5E »

Some nice close ups...


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Re: F-35B Lightning II (RN & RAF)

Post by CR4ZYHOR5E »

There was a short piece on last nights BBC1 News @ 10pm where the BBC reporter was reporting from Wasp/OT-1. The story was the usual 'can the U.K afford the troubled stealth fighter' piece. Couple of nice shots but nothing of any real interest (other than the U.S. General expressing concern about the level of U.K def spending which is well known).

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Re: F-35B Lightning II (RN & RAF)

Post by Ron5 »

Jdam wrote:

A great video of the F-35 at sea, I'm surprised how little deck space they are using to get the F-35 into the air also nice and smooth when it comes in to land :)
I doubt if they are carrying any stores.

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Re: F-35B Lightning II (RN & RAF)

Post by Gabriele »

Ron5 wrote:
Jdam wrote:

A great video of the F-35 at sea, I'm surprised how little deck space they are using to get the F-35 into the air also nice and smooth when it comes in to land :)
I doubt if they are carrying any stores.
They should be carrying standard internal load (2x 1000 lbs bombs, 2x AMRAAM). They started with 550 feet take off runs, and eventually ended up doing it in as few as 400 when they saw it worked comfortably.
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Re: F-35B Lightning II (RN & RAF)

Post by SKB »

The pilot, surprisingly, seems to have got some information wrong. F-35B only has one engine, not two. The lift fan is not an engine, its a fan driven by a drive-shaft and gearbox directly connected to the sole main engine. The lift fan exhaust is air taken from above the aircraft and vectored out beneath the plane. This cooler air exhaust also helps to disperse and dilute the hot exhaust gasses from the main engine when the plane is performing a vertical landing.

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Re: F-35B Lightning II (RN & RAF)

Post by downsizer »

Ah, nothing like an internet pedant nit picking. :P

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Re: F-35B Lightning II (RN & RAF)

Post by shark bait »

I also thought the same thing when watching. perhaps hes dumming it down for general consumption.
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Re: F-35B Lightning II (RN & RAF)

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The sound of pennies dropping... ;)

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