UK Defence Forum

RichardIC wrote: ↑24 Jan 2023, 17:18 This is a promotional CGI so it means nothing. But how many CAMM at 1:32?

Unfortunately that CGI clip inserted in yesterdays video is from way back before the contract was signed. Also shows 4 boat bays which have now been reduced to 3.

RichardIC wrote: ↑24 Jan 2023, 17:01 Team Leader Helga Kitney said:

“The cutting of steel for HMS Active, the second of the Type 31 Frigates, just 16 months after the first ship, is a testament to the continued delivery of this innovative programme by industry and MOD at an unprecedented pace.

"Unprecedented" - no.

RichardIC wrote: ↑24 Jan 2023, 17:01 This will allow this agile frigate fleet to engage in a range of operational roles including Defence engagement, interception and disruption of illegal maritime activity and humanitarian support.

Constabulary & flag waving confirmed yet again.

RichardIC wrote: ↑24 Jan 2023, 17:01 DE&S Director General Ships Vice Admiral Paul Marshall, said:

“The Type 31 programme was the first warship competition for over a decade with DE&S championing a new agile procurement process. This enabled placement of a contract at unparalleled pace, delivering excellent capability to the Royal Navy and value to the taxpayer.

"unparalleled pace" - no.

"excellent capability" - for constabulary & flag waving - yes.

Ron5 wrote: ↑24 Jan 2023, 15:38

wargame_insomniac wrote: ↑23 Jan 2023, 22:47 The fact is that the first batch of 3*T26 were ordered on a non-fixed price contract from BAE, and have ALREADY come in 4.2% over Budget = additional cost of £233m.

My opinion is that that there will be further costs overuns from BAE on the second batch 5*T26. Therefore my opinion / educated guess is that the marginal costs of ordering these 5*T26 Batch 2 will be far in excess of £840m per ship. It is ok if you have a different opinion on that.

The fact is that the 5*T31 were ordered on a fixed price contract with Babcock.

You have to be careful about which £ you are using. And when. Because with inflation and pre-COVID/post COVID differences, they can differ a lot.

For example and simplified, the T31 contract was fixed as you rightly point out, but there are clauses that protect Babcocks from the effects of inflation. So their £1.25 billion contract was in 2019 £. If inflation is 20% until contract is complete, they will get £1.5billion. Not quite right because they get payments in installments but you get the drift.

The other thing is that the T26 contract is much older so inflation & COVID upheavals have had more time and opportunity to interfere.

For my post, you should assume constant 2019 £s.

Fair point - thank you for clarifying what you meant.

You have to remember in MoD contracts - fixed price is not fixed, it can vary with changes in inflation or exchange rates or even some commodity prices. Firm prices mean not subject to variation ie fixed in common usage.

Even profit rates can vary on the efficiency of the supplier or the assumed risk being covered by each party. Babcock were not content so accept certain risks ie significant inflation rate changes so that is why the contract was fixed at £1.25m. MoD are underwriting these risks.

Great view!



https://ukdefencejournal.org.uk/first-t ... -shipyard/

donald_of_tokyo wrote: ↑25 Jan 2023, 12:51 Great view!



https://ukdefencejournal.org.uk/first-t ... -shipyard/

Excellent to see but echoing others, it seems hard to believe it will be in the water this year as scheduled.

PS smart to paint it red so the rust doesn't show

Does anyone know why 40mm mk4 was selected over Millennium Gun.

Fr0sty125 wrote: ↑09 Feb 2023, 17:20 Does anyone know why 40mm mk4 was selected over Millennium Gun.

BAE don't have a subsidiary that manufactures the Millennium Gun.

Jensy wrote: ↑09 Feb 2023, 17:28

Fr0sty125 wrote: ↑09 Feb 2023, 17:20 Does anyone know why 40mm mk4 was selected over Millennium Gun.

BAE don't have a subsidiary that manufactures the Millennium Gun.

Not sure BAE is the key we could have had more DS30 like the other escorts. My question would be why the Danish chose the Millennium Gun? Did they have some workshare?

tomuk wrote: ↑09 Feb 2023, 21:08

Jensy wrote: ↑09 Feb 2023, 17:28

Fr0sty125 wrote: ↑09 Feb 2023, 17:20 Does anyone know why 40mm mk4 was selected over Millennium Gun.

BAE don't have a subsidiary that manufactures the Millennium Gun.

Not sure BAE is the key we could have had more DS30 like the other escorts. My question would be why the Danish chose the Millennium Gun? Did they have some workshare?

I think the fait accompli was the 57mm becoming the lower end British medium calibre naval artillery.

Though, to my knowledge, there's not much commonality between the two, it seemed logical to those in power to source both weapons from a single supplier.

I think the ds30 is a great weapon, and I like the potential for variants with larger calibres, but it's yet to be fitted to either of the QEC. So somewhere in the MoD there's a faction who prefer the Bofors.

More on the reasons for the selection here

https://www.navylookout.com/developing- ... 1-frigate/

It appears that some of the T31 is being built in Poland............

https://www.msn.com/en-gb/money/other/b ... e422&ei=11

I predicted this a few posts back - it makes a lot of sense. There are already a lot of engineers going back and forth between Gdańsk and Aberdeen.

It shouldn’t be a problem provided some of the Polish blocks are getting built at Rosyth but it is odd that work is getting subcontracted on the T31s as currently Rosyth has nothing on the books after the T31s.

The workforce will start to get thinned out from 2026 onwards unless additional work is allocated to yard.

1: Is this action to counter the said workers’ strike?

2: Building 5 frigates in very short timeframe will require “surge” in all aspects of workforces. “Outsourcing some work” is not a surprise. As you know, actual build process is ALWAYS more complicated than you plan.

3: Positive side, if the Poland is out sourcing build works of their 3 T31 frigates to Rosyth in future more than this case, I think it is a good thing. T32 will never come soon. No money, no man power, and as there is no way to continue T3X build forever, it will also not contribute a lot to save Rosyth.

Reducing the peak workload to keep the workforce in sustainable size, and preparing the future works to “feed” the workforce after 2027 onwards has a huge merit.

4: Anyway there are many workers from abroad? Most of them will be “fired” around 2028 and their “expertise” will anyway go out of UK. So this issue will not be so big problem anyway.

I suspect point 4. is close to the mark, where is the surge in people at Rosyth coming from? At least some will be from Poland. When t31 batch 1 is finished they simply go home to build Polish version of T31.
Clever

donald_of_tokyo wrote: ↑09 Apr 2023, 23:58 Anyway there are many workers from abroad? Most of them will be “fired” around 2028 and their “expertise” will anyway go out of UK. So this issue will not be so big problem anyway.

Or transfer to H&W to build the FSS?

Actually I think the workforce is going to scale down rapidly from 2026 onwards if further orders are not forthcoming.

sol wrote: ↑11 Apr 2023, 20:33

The news item forgets to mention where the radar is built and tested - Thales premises in Hengelo, the Netherlands.

From the always excellent Navy News.

https://www.navalnews.com/naval-news/20 ... struction/

And from the equally excellent Navy Lookout.

https://www.navylookout.com/type-31-fri ... programme/

Ron5 wrote: ↑17 Apr 2023, 13:04

12 CAMM...

That photo has been around for a few years now nothing new

Ukrainian fast boat next to it is more interesting