Type 31 Frigate (Inspiration Class) [News Only]

Contains threads on Royal Navy equipment of the past, present and future.

What will be the result of the 'Lighter Frigate' programme?

Programme cancelled, RN down to 14 escorts
52
10%
Programme cancelled & replaced with GP T26
14
3%
A number of heavy OPVs spun as "frigates"
127
25%
An LCS-like modular ship
22
4%
A modernised Type 23
24
5%
A Type 26-lite
71
14%
Less than 5 hulls
22
4%
5 hulls
71
14%
More than 5 hulls
103
20%
 
Total votes: 506

Ron5
Donator
Posts: 7410
Joined: 05 May 2015, 21:42
United States of America

Re: Type 31 Frigate (Inspiration Class) [News Only]

Post by Ron5 »

Tempest414 wrote: 11 May 2023, 16:37 And there is another thing about Type 26 Batch 2 it will cost 840 million per ship and will get hand me down Radar , CAMM system , and TAS from the T-23 ASW's if this is not GFE what is and what will this kit be worth and is this to be added to the 840 million

But the question is how has inflation affected the T-26 program and is BAE being told to suck up any costs
Bae is on a cost plus contract. Which means "suck up any costs" is meaningless.

User avatar
Tempest414
Senior Member
Posts: 5670
Joined: 04 Jan 2018, 23:39
France

Re: Type 31 Frigate (Inspiration Class) [News Only]

Post by Tempest414 »

well depending on how much extra it costs it is far from meaningless as we all know they are 233 million over on the Batch 1 order and the first ship is fitting out and other two are still in build at a time of high inflation so it is highly likely BAE will be coming back with another extra bill for the Batch 1 ships.

But the main point is both BAE and Babcocks will have been hit by this high inflation

Ron5
Donator
Posts: 7410
Joined: 05 May 2015, 21:42
United States of America

Re: Type 31 Frigate (Inspiration Class) [News Only]

Post by Ron5 »

Tempest414 wrote: 12 May 2023, 14:10 But the main point is both BAE and Babcocks will have been hit by this high inflation
Who hasn't? Don't know about the UK but some prices have gone nuts e.g. new auto's. Add in the extra cost of electrification to meet government targets and I'm planning on a new bike to get me around. Pedal power.


new guy
Senior Member
Posts: 1370
Joined: 18 Apr 2023, 01:53
United Kingdom

Re: Type 31 Frigate (Inspiration Class) [News Only]

Post by new guy »

the fact that HMS venturer has been on on twitter for less than 24 hours and already telling us information, it fills me with joy.
These users liked the author new guy for the post (total 4):
bobpTempest414wargame_insomniacserge750

Dobbo
Member
Posts: 122
Joined: 08 Apr 2021, 07:41
United Kingdom

Re: Type 31 Frigate (Inspiration Class) [News Only]

Post by Dobbo »

T31 to be fitted with 32 MK41 cells - see link below for further details.

A sensible decision.

https://www.navylookout.com/royal-navys ... ch-system/
These users liked the author Dobbo for the post (total 7):
Ron5new guywargame_insomniacHalidonhopperserge750Caribbean

Jdam
Member
Posts: 980
Joined: 09 May 2015, 22:26
United Kingdom

Re: Type 31 Frigate (Inspiration Class) [News Only]

Post by Jdam »

I am not unhappy with this but it feels a bit half baked. Like when we tried to put cat and traps on the QE then reality set in.

Are we getting ride of the mushrooms?
Are we integrating sea ceptor into the MK41?
If not what are these going to fire?
Will this be done before or after launch?
If its 10 - 15 years down the line why bother announcing it now?

It very good to have options but this feels reactionary and a bit unfocused, lets hope some more details come out soon.
These users liked the author Jdam for the post (total 2):
Ron5serge750

Poiuytrewq
Senior Member
Posts: 4176
Joined: 15 Dec 2017, 10:25
United Kingdom

Re: Type 31 Frigate (Inspiration Class) [News Only]

Post by Poiuytrewq »

Jdam wrote: 17 May 2023, 11:56 It very good to have options but this feels reactionary and a bit unfocused, lets hope some more details come out soon.
Apologies but I respectfully disagree. This is the very definition of increased lethality.

It does raise more than a few question’s though:

- Can 32x Mk41 cells and 8x NSM be fitted whilst still retaining 4 boat houses on the T31?

- Is Sylver now dead? Should the T45s forget the additional mushroom farm for CAMM and instead install a full bank of Mk41’s?

- Is TLAM in the interim now a realistic proposition for the T31?

- How will this impact the crew allocation on the T31?

- If a sonar of some description is installed on the T31, either fixed or via PODs they would become a very credible GP Frigate. Is another OPV class now required for the low-threat constabulary taskings?


It’s the great news but IMO it massively decreases the rationale for a follow-on class of T32s, at least in the near future. Much better to enlarge the T31 class to 8 and crack on with a modest class of HiCap OPVs for all those currently still to be developed off-board systems.

Finally some solid decision making from the MoD!
These users liked the author Poiuytrewq for the post:
wargame_insomniac

Phil Sayers
Member
Posts: 374
Joined: 03 May 2015, 13:56

Re: Type 31 Frigate (Inspiration Class) [News Only]

Post by Phil Sayers »

Great news that Mk41 is to be fitted but I do not see anything in the Admiral's quote which states it will be 32 cells:

“…we also need to advance our ability to deliver lethal long-range offensive fires against our adversaries. Hence the decision to ensure the Mark 41 Vertical Launch Silo is fitted to the Type 26 and, I am delighted to say, we intend to fit it also to our Type 31 frigates. This will enable potential use of a large variety of current and future anti-air, anti-surface, ballistic missile defence and strike missiles”

Maybe Navy Lookout have had that confirmed to them separately but, if not, I consider 16 (maybe only 8) more likely than 32. Still a huge increase in potential capability regardless.

Repulse
Donator
Posts: 4823
Joined: 05 May 2015, 22:46
United Kingdom

Re: Type 31 Frigate (Inspiration Class) [News Only]

Post by Repulse »

Notwithstanding Jdam’s point that they are only useful if they have something to fire, I think it’s a good decision. The RN cannot afford an expensive low capability paper frigate just to forward base as a flag pole.

I think now that it’s getting the bells and whistles that are needed, we need to realise that they need to based in the UK
”We have no eternal allies, and we have no perpetual enemies. Our interests are eternal and perpetual, and those interests it is our duty to follow." - Lord Palmerston

User avatar
Tempest414
Senior Member
Posts: 5670
Joined: 04 Jan 2018, 23:39
France

Re: Type 31 Frigate (Inspiration Class) [News Only]

Post by Tempest414 »

If it gets all 32 cells it puts Type 31 on a par with Type-26 as far as strike cells so we could now see a load out of 32 x CAMM , 24 Land strike and 8 x NSM anyway with 32 Mk-41's it is not a paper frigate all it needs now is a TAS

So it also looks like the Navy have played a blinder and got their global combat ships. What we now need to know is how this effects the price

Poiuytrewq
Senior Member
Posts: 4176
Joined: 15 Dec 2017, 10:25
United Kingdom

Re: Type 31 Frigate (Inspiration Class) [News Only]

Post by Poiuytrewq »

Tempest414 wrote: 17 May 2023, 13:16 If it gets all 32 cells it puts Type 31 on a par with Type-26…..
Absolutely but would a better comparison now be with the USN’s Constellation class?

Apart for the ASW deficiency the T31 now compares very well against the Constellation class with the four Port/Starboard mission spaces, 50% greater range and the ability to embark two Wildcats.

Suddenly the T31 is a totally different proposition.

RN have indeed done very well. A bit off-topic but surely lessons for the Army here.

User avatar
Tempest414
Senior Member
Posts: 5670
Joined: 04 Jan 2018, 23:39
France

Re: Type 31 Frigate (Inspiration Class) [News Only]

Post by Tempest414 »

Poiuytrewq wrote: 17 May 2023, 12:57
Jdam wrote: 17 May 2023, 11:56 It very good to have options but this feels reactionary and a bit unfocused, lets hope some more details come out soon.
Apologies but I respectfully disagree. This is the very definition of increased lethality.

It does raise more than a few question’s though:

- Can 32x Mk41 cells and 8x NSM be fitted whilst still retaining 4 boat houses on the T31?

- Is Sylver now dead? Should the T45s forget the additional mushroom farm for CAMM and instead install a full bank of Mk41’s?

- Is TLAM in the interim now a realistic proposition for the T31?

How will this impact the crew allocation on the T31?-

- If a sonar of some description is installed on the T31, either fixed or via PODs they would become a very credible GP Frigate. Is another OPV class now required for the low-threat constabulary taskings?

It’s the great news but IMO it massively decreases the rationale for a follow-on class of T32s, at least in the near future. Much better to enlarge the T31 class to 8 and crack on with a modest class of HiCap OPVs for all those currently still to be developed off-board systems.

Finally some solid decision making from the MoD!
The IH class has a crew of 117 plus helicopter crew

Poiuytrewq
Senior Member
Posts: 4176
Joined: 15 Dec 2017, 10:25
United Kingdom

Re: Type 31 Frigate (Inspiration Class) [News Only]

Post by Poiuytrewq »

Based on this graphic there us still space for at least 16x NSM or 24 CAMM in mushrooms without deleting one of the mission areas.
C3AB77DB-6CA3-4A2D-A2AB-13A0DD8B8D20.jpeg
It’s a lot of amidship space to play with. It may even be possible to squeeze 32x Mk41, 24 CAMM and 16x NSM in a conflict scenario if time allowed.

Add in the two Wildcats and the T31 turns into the most capable ASuW Frigate RN has ever commissioned.

Ron5
Donator
Posts: 7410
Joined: 05 May 2015, 21:42
United States of America

Re: Type 31 Frigate (Inspiration Class) [News Only]

Post by Ron5 »

Poiuytrewq wrote: 17 May 2023, 13:31 Apart from the ASW deficiency ....
A massive difference not to be glossed over.
These users liked the author Ron5 for the post (total 3):
PoiuytrewqRepulseserge750

Ron5
Donator
Posts: 7410
Joined: 05 May 2015, 21:42
United States of America

Re: Type 31 Frigate (Inspiration Class) [News Only]

Post by Ron5 »

Very good news. In my surprise I nearly fell off my chair. But as some have mentioned, VLS on their own do jack shit so what will they be loaded with?
These users liked the author Ron5 for the post (total 2):
JensyZero Gravitas

jonas
Senior Member
Posts: 1114
Joined: 30 Apr 2015, 19:20
United Kingdom

Re: Type 31 Frigate (Inspiration Class) [News Only]

Post by jonas »

Some of the posts on here, seem to suggest a rush to criticise the article having just skimmed through it. We don't even know yet what missiles are going to be fitted in the T26 silos, so already rubbishing the T31 fit is unfair to say the least.
For all the bleating that has been aimed at T31 for a lack of offensive capability, we now have a major upgrade and still the same old moans carry on.
This upgrade has only just been announced, give it a little time to be fleshed out before jumping in with at the moment unanswerable questions.
These users liked the author jonas for the post:
wargame_insomniac

User avatar
Jensy
Moderator
Posts: 1116
Joined: 05 Aug 2016, 19:44
United Kingdom

Re: Type 31 Frigate (Inspiration Class) [News Only]

Post by Jensy »

Just speculating:
  • The wording: "we intend to fit it also to our Type 31 frigates" is fairly loose and doesn't give timescale, numbers of tubes or any suggestion that it's budgeted
  • On the other hand, why say anything when the intention for MK.41 to be FFBNW type 31 is already on the record?
  • Will be interesting to see if the planned Anglo-Polish CAMM-MR is suitable for MK.41.
  • Last week's news reports on Babcock wanting more money maybe part of this. Could there be an arrangement where Rosyth is guaranteed the upgrade work to keep them in the black?
  • What does this mean for Type 32?
Now personally, I'd really like this to mark a movement towards putting on MK.41 all escorts, including Type 45s.
Ron5 wrote: 17 May 2023, 14:05 Very good news. In my surprise I nearly fell off my chair. But as some have mentioned, VLS on their own do jack shit so what will they be loaded with?
Well there's the big question. I don't see anything aside from FC/ASW as likely till that enters service. Tomahawk maybe, but where would the money come from?
These users liked the author Jensy for the post (total 4):
dmereifieldRon5Dobbodonald_of_tokyo
"Gentlemen, you can't fight in here! This is the War Room!" - Dr. Strangelove (1964)

dmereifield
Senior Member
Posts: 2762
Joined: 03 Aug 2016, 20:29
United Kingdom

Re: Type 31 Frigate (Inspiration Class) [News Only]

Post by dmereifield »

Generally positive news, but "we intend to" is not the same as "we are going to" and nowhere does it indicate that this will be at the build stage. If this is part of some distant future upgrade post build then its liable to be cancelled or postponed and never come about
These users liked the author dmereifield for the post:
Jensy

wargame_insomniac
Senior Member
Posts: 1165
Joined: 20 Nov 2021, 19:12
United Kingdom

Re: Type 31 Frigate (Inspiration Class) [News Only]

Post by wargame_insomniac »

Dobbo wrote: 17 May 2023, 11:33 T31 to be fitted with 32 MK41 cells - see link below for further details.

A sensible decision.

https://www.navylookout.com/royal-navys ... ch-system/
That is potentially great news. The Navy lookout article comments that the T31 were being built with 4*8 cell foundation seats for Mk41 VLS.

The two big unknowns are what would be the cost for installing Mk41 VLS in each of the 5*T31, and secondly what missiles will be available / can the RN afford to fill these cells.

But with the possibility of quad packing CAMM, and the possibility of taking the hoped for FCASW, it COULD add a lot to RN Escort fleet in both defense and offense.

Add say 8*NSM Canisters, as they get transferred across from the retiring T23's, then T31 COULD be very capable ASuW escorts.

They still need a decent sonar so that they are not exposed on ASW. But they could be dangerous foe in the littoral environment. Could add some punch to the RN's two LSG's.

The 1SL states in his speech that the RN "intend" to add the Mk41 VLS to the T31 as well as the T26. That is not exactly a firm budget commitment but is a great start.
These users liked the author wargame_insomniac for the post:
Dobbo

bobp
Senior Member
Posts: 2716
Joined: 06 May 2015, 07:52
United Kingdom

Re: Type 31 Frigate (Inspiration Class) [News Only]

Post by bobp »

Excellent news if the article is correct, then the T31 will be a great asset in the future.

Ron5
Donator
Posts: 7410
Joined: 05 May 2015, 21:42
United States of America

Re: Type 31 Frigate (Inspiration Class) [News Only]

Post by Ron5 »

Made me laugh ..


Bring Deeps
Donator
Posts: 220
Joined: 27 May 2015, 21:06
United Kingdom

Re: Type 31 Frigate (Inspiration Class) [News Only]

Post by Bring Deeps »

Jensy wrote: 17 May 2023, 16:28 Just speculating:
  • Last week's news reports on Babcock wanting more money maybe part of this. Could there be an arrangement where Rosyth is guaranteed the upgrade work to keep them in the black?
I think that's exactly what will happen. For the customer there is only one thing worse than a duopoly and that's a monopoly. For that reason alone HMG can't afford to let Babcock go bust.

Requesting a contract variation when you are already well into the build phase is also not a good strategy for getting the best price. In fact that is one of the classic 'must not do' in procurement cost management.

If this proposal is going to proceed we are likely to see some tough talking by the MOD before they end up paying Babcock what they need plus a margin on top.

The settlement will be hailed as a triumph of constructive negotiation For good measure we can expect a photo of smiling white middle aged men in Rosyth thrown in for good measure. Some apprentices might be invited for the diversitywashing.

The worst outcome would a settlement where Babcock get the work to add the cells but it is cancelled a couple of years down the line as a cost saving measure ('the Ukraine Peace Dividend').
These users liked the author Bring Deeps for the post:
Jensy

Poiuytrewq
Senior Member
Posts: 4176
Joined: 15 Dec 2017, 10:25
United Kingdom

Re: Type 31 Frigate (Inspiration Class) [News Only]

Post by Poiuytrewq »

A bit controversial but in light of the Mk41 addition to the T31s with a combined 160x Mk41 capacity plus 192x Mk41 capacity on the T26s and potentially another 96x Mk41 capacity on the T45s is it now time to ditch FCASW and concentrate on an AUKUS standard ASuW missile(s) to ensure a plentiful supply if serious hostilities were to occur?

That’s a potential combined RN capacity of 448x Mk41 VLS. That’s a huge number and there is absolutely no way the UK and France are going to order 1000 to 1500 FCASW. It’s much more likely to be 200 to 300 each which is going to leave a lot of fresh air in those VLS cells unless RN is going to start providing more of the Land Strike capability going forward instead of the RAF and can warrant a larger purchase.

A combined AUKUS procurement of TLAM and LRASM may be the smartest and most cost effective way to proceed.

tomuk
Senior Member
Posts: 1675
Joined: 20 Dec 2017, 20:24
United Kingdom

Re: Type 31 Frigate (Inspiration Class) [News Only]

Post by tomuk »

Poiuytrewq wrote: 17 May 2023, 22:19

A combined AUKUS procurement of TLAM and LRASM may be the smartest and most cost effective way to proceed.
TLAM is old hat and there is no surface launched LRASM as yet. Maybe AUKUS should buy some FCASW for the surface launched requirement.

Post Reply