Type 31 Frigate (Inspiration Class) [News Only]
Re: Type 31 Frigate (Inspiration Class) [News Only]
Arguing for arguments sake, the pair of you.
Geo was on his mission to savagely cut defense spending in pursuit of his financially illiterate idea that a balanced budget should be achieved at all costs. He refused to pay for T26GP and commissioned an ex-Babcock's guy to write a shipbuilding "strategy" that said Babcock's should build a much cheaper frigate and all would be super duper wonderful. The T31 budget was set by Geo to be whatever remained of the the Treasury's T26 budget. The number of was set by the number of T23 GP.
Succeeding chancellors, defense ministers, & RN, chose not to rock the boat because based on recent history that would mean, in the best case, more delay for T23 replacements which were already 10 years late and getting later (see HMS Westminster). The only meaningful change to the program was that both Bae and Babcock's said they could not building even the dumbed down T31 at the target contract price. So, rather than having egg on their faces, the Treasury quietly slid expense from the builders to the MoD to solve the issue.
The T31's are a political warship. Toothless and fit only for minor taskings such as flag waving and the occasional embassy rescue. I'm sure the RN will do what it can to add teeth over the years but, of course, that will be an uphill fight against the Treasury.
That's all for me.
Geo was on his mission to savagely cut defense spending in pursuit of his financially illiterate idea that a balanced budget should be achieved at all costs. He refused to pay for T26GP and commissioned an ex-Babcock's guy to write a shipbuilding "strategy" that said Babcock's should build a much cheaper frigate and all would be super duper wonderful. The T31 budget was set by Geo to be whatever remained of the the Treasury's T26 budget. The number of was set by the number of T23 GP.
Succeeding chancellors, defense ministers, & RN, chose not to rock the boat because based on recent history that would mean, in the best case, more delay for T23 replacements which were already 10 years late and getting later (see HMS Westminster). The only meaningful change to the program was that both Bae and Babcock's said they could not building even the dumbed down T31 at the target contract price. So, rather than having egg on their faces, the Treasury quietly slid expense from the builders to the MoD to solve the issue.
The T31's are a political warship. Toothless and fit only for minor taskings such as flag waving and the occasional embassy rescue. I'm sure the RN will do what it can to add teeth over the years but, of course, that will be an uphill fight against the Treasury.
That's all for me.
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Re: Type 31 Frigate (Inspiration Class) [News Only]
If (a big if, from where we currently are), the T31 end up with 8-16 NSM and 16-24 MK41 (not filled with CAMM) and 24 CAMM and a wildcat, are the T31 still toothless? More or less toothless than the Constellation class?Ron5 wrote: ↑07 Jun 2023, 14:04 Arguing for arguments sake, the pair of you.
Geo was on his mission to savagely cut defense spending in pursuit of his financially illiterate idea that a balanced budget should be achieved at all costs. He refused to pay for T26GP and commissioned an ex-Babcock's guy to write a shipbuilding "strategy" that said Babcock's should build a much cheaper frigate and all would be super duper wonderful. The T31 budget was set by Geo to be whatever remained of the the Treasury's T26 budget. The number of was set by the number of T23 GP.
Succeeding chancellors, defense ministers, & RN, chose not to rock the boat because based on recent history that would mean, in the best case, more delay for T23 replacements which were already 10 years late and getting later (see HMS Westminster). The only meaningful change to the program was that both Bae and Babcock's said they could not building even the dumbed down T31 at the target contract price. So, rather than having egg on their faces, the Treasury quietly slid expense from the builders to the MoD to solve the issue.
The T31's are a political warship. Toothless and fit only for minor taskings such as flag waving and the occasional embassy rescue. I'm sure the RN will do what it can to add teeth over the years but, of course, that will be an uphill fight against the Treasury.
That's all for me.
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Re: Type 31 Frigate (Inspiration Class) [News Only]
Every warship is a political warship, that's the whole kinda "parliamentary democracy" thing. You think T26s are not political - being built 100% in downtown Glasgow to keep the separatists happy when there were arguably better facilities in Portsmouth? Gordon Brown's TOBA wasn't political ? Requiring make-work OPVs to be built at twice the going rate complete with araldite bolt-heads?Ron5 wrote: ↑07 Jun 2023, 14:04
The T31's are a political warship. Toothless and fit only for minor taskings such as flag waving and the occasional embassy rescue. I'm sure the RN will do what it can to add teeth over the years but, of course, that will be an uphill fight against the Treasury.
That's all for me.
I think the Navy have played the politics really well. They could have just dug their heels in like the Army have over Ajax refused to countenance any other option - not sure it would have worked out well.
IMHO T31 are the modern T21 - Global patrol frigates that are built quickly to keep numbers up. If they get NSM and Mk41 they'll pack quite a punch. And they've already succeeded in firing a rocket up BAE, there is quite a reduction in the T26 batch 2 cost.
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Re: Type 31 Frigate (Inspiration Class) [News Only]
By political I read that the T31 happened just to keep the numbers constant at 13 frigates, imo a few lower end frigates like the T31 could be handy for lower end tasks, although initially 12 CAMM is dismal ! 24 minimum, but if they do fit 32 mk 41 then there usefulness will be increased, I would prefer if the RN got a couple more T26 instead of 4 or 5 x more T32/31 in the future though
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Re: Type 31 Frigate (Inspiration Class) [News Only]
I would rather that the RN got (at least) both the 2 or more T26 and 5 or more T31 (with improved sensors & weapons fit).
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Re: Type 31 Frigate (Inspiration Class) [News Only]
for me the perfect T-31 would have 1 x 57mm , 2 x 40mm , 24 CAMM , 16 x Mk-41 cells and 16 NSM plus a TAS this would leave room to upgrade if needed to the full 32 Mk-41 cells
8 of these is what is needed along side 8 OPV's fitted with 3D radars 40 or 57mm main guns 4 x 12.7mm HMG's plus the ability to operate POD's. These 16 ships would be the eyes and ears of the fleet around the world
Type 26 is the back bone of the CSG we should have 9 of them to allow 3 with each CSG and 3 for TAPS
8 of these is what is needed along side 8 OPV's fitted with 3D radars 40 or 57mm main guns 4 x 12.7mm HMG's plus the ability to operate POD's. These 16 ships would be the eyes and ears of the fleet around the world
Type 26 is the back bone of the CSG we should have 9 of them to allow 3 with each CSG and 3 for TAPS
Re: Type 31 Frigate (Inspiration Class) [News Only]
I’m still somewhat at a loss as to the rationale for theses mk41 silos in the fleet. We have not procured anything cleared in them. Not sure why the camm launchers and canisters for nsm are not sufficient.
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Re: Type 31 Frigate (Inspiration Class) [News Only]
Could you not say the same about the T26?
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Re: Type 31 Frigate (Inspiration Class) [News Only]
Indeed you can. Apart from the much talked about FCASW which surely the French would want to be Sylver compatible too what else is there?
Re: Type 31 Frigate (Inspiration Class) [News Only]
I'm sorry but to characterise Sir John Parker as just an ex Babcock's guy is an insult. Yes he was CEO and Chairman of Babcock 15 years before he wrote his report but he is British Shipbuilding through and through. He started out as an apprentice at Harland and Wolf, manager at A&P Sunderland and became both Chairman of British Shipbuilders the nationalised UK shipyard firm and later chairman of Harland and Wolf.Ron5 wrote: ↑07 Jun 2023, 14:04 Arguing for arguments sake, the pair of you.
Geo was on his mission to savagely cut defense spending in pursuit of his financially illiterate idea that a balanced budget should be achieved at all costs. He refused to pay for T26GP and commissioned an ex-Babcock's guy to write a shipbuilding "strategy" that said Babcock's should build a much cheaper frigate and all would be super duper wonderful. The T31 budget was set by Geo to be whatever remained of the the Treasury's T26 budget. The number of was set by the number of T23 GP.
He wasn't the author of the NBS either just an independent report used to inform the strategy which was drawn up by the government later. He definitely didn't suggest the contract should be given to Babcock.
And although they said they agreed with his recommendations the actual NBS and the approach taken with T31 varies to what he recommended. One clear example being the lack of block build (ignoring Poland) of T31
The government could have chosen different paths at numerous times since the 2015 SDSR. They could of scrapped T31 and paid BAE to speed up T26 production, scrapped T31 and bought some overseas frigate I'm sure France or Italy would have been happy to receive some hard cash for the four North African frigates rather than lending the money to Egypt and Morocco to buy them. They could even have reduced or delayed T26 build and poured more money into T31 or heven forbid just increased the RN's budget.Succeeding chancellors, defense ministers, & RN, chose not to rock the boat because based on recent history that would mean, in the best case, more delay for T23 replacements which were already 10 years late and getting later (see HMS Westminster).
I just don't recognise that characterisation of the T31 as now chosen based on IH. Is it a T26 or FREMM no but it is an awful lot better base ship than some overinflated River OPV based BAE Avenger or Cutlass.The only meaningful change to the program was that both Bae and Babcock's said they could not building even the dumbed down T31 at the target contract price. So, rather than having egg on their faces, the Treasury quietly slid expense from the builders to the MoD to solve the issue.
The T31's are a political warship. Toothless and fit only for minor taskings such as flag waving and the occasional embassy rescue. I'm sure the RN will do what it can to add teeth over the years but, of course, that will be an uphill fight against the Treasury.
That's all for me.
Re: Type 31 Frigate (Inspiration Class) [News Only]
sylver 70. we have sylver 50.tomuk wrote: ↑08 Jun 2023, 03:38Indeed you can. Apart from the much talked about FCASW which surely the French would want to be Sylver compatible too what else is there?
Re: Type 31 Frigate (Inspiration Class) [News Only]
A high availability CSG able to scale to an Expeditionary Strike Group requires all 8 T26s. Add TAPS and one EoS (where there is a proliferation of subs) then that’s 10 minimum. Now ask yourself what stopped that from being a reality.Tempest414 wrote: ↑07 Jun 2023, 22:00 Type 26 is the back bone of the CSG we should have 9 of them to allow 3 with each CSG and 3 for TAPS
”We have no eternal allies, and we have no perpetual enemies. Our interests are eternal and perpetual, and those interests it is our duty to follow." - Lord Palmerston
Re: Type 31 Frigate (Inspiration Class) [News Only]
Yes I would include them too.
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Re: Type 31 Frigate (Inspiration Class) [News Only]
What stops anything money but in this case it was HMG , HMT , MOD , BAE and the RN why? because they all let Type 26 get out of hand and the simple fact is all 13 would have cost 13+ billionRepulse wrote: ↑08 Jun 2023, 07:23A high availability CSG able to scale to an Expeditionary Strike Group requires all 8 T26s. Add TAPS and one EoS (where there is a proliferation of subs) then that’s 10 minimum. Now ask yourself what stopped that from being a reality.Tempest414 wrote: ↑07 Jun 2023, 22:00 Type 26 is the back bone of the CSG we should have 9 of them to allow 3 with each CSG and 3 for TAPS
Maybe had HMG , MOD , BAE and the RN kept a grip on the Program and got on with it we could have had 13 maybe more and been in the running for USN FFGX program but no HMG , MOD dragged they feet and the RN and BAE couldn't stop playing and fucking with the design
The High availability CSG needs 2 x Type 45's , 2 x Type 26 and a SSN to go to a Expeditionary strike group it would need 4 x T45 , 6 x T26 , 2 x T 31 and 2 x SSN
Re: Type 31 Frigate (Inspiration Class) [News Only]
The RN could have got 10 T26s with the funds available and have money to spare, if the Treasury hadn’t pushed the £250mn frigate. Sure, the RN pitched it, but reality is that it was a bad move, and guess what this £250mn frigate will still end up to be double that. It’s naive beyond beliefTempest414 wrote: ↑08 Jun 2023, 08:19 What stops anything money but in this case it was HMG , HMT , MOD , BAE and the RN why? because they all let Type 26 get out of hand and the simple fact is all 13 would have cost 13+ billion
Maybe had HMG , MOD , BAE and the RN kept a grip on the Program and got on with it we could have had 13 maybe more and been in the running for USN FFGX program but no HMG , MOD dragged they feet and the RN and BAE couldn't stop playing and fucking with the design
The reality is that the unit price for each new T26 is £800mn. The government could have committed to a larger batch and would have got a better price and more ships. It’s only the Chinook capable landing pad that is a luxury and even then it’s marginal.
Nope - history and recent events with the T23 show we need 6 to guarantee two are available at short notice. I think 3 is needed minimum for a ESG so it’s 8.Tempest414 wrote: ↑08 Jun 2023, 08:19 The High availability CSG needs 2 x Type 45's , 2 x Type 26 and a SSN to go to a Expeditionary strike group it would need 4 x T45 , 6 x T26 , 2 x T 31 and 2 x SSN
”We have no eternal allies, and we have no perpetual enemies. Our interests are eternal and perpetual, and those interests it is our duty to follow." - Lord Palmerston
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Re: Type 31 Frigate (Inspiration Class) [News Only]
The T83 is heading in the same direction.Tempest414 wrote: ↑08 Jun 2023, 08:19 …..HMG , MOD dragged they feet and the RN and BAE couldn't stop playing and fucking with the design
To grow the Royal Navy every class from now on must be bigger than the preceding class. It’s really simple.
RN does not need cruisers.
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Re: Type 31 Frigate (Inspiration Class) [News Only]
The T31 won’t cost £500m
Even around the £400m ballpark with the Mk41s and hopefully some kind of tail they are very good value
Why is a Chinook capable flight deck a luxury?It’s only the Chinook capable landing pad that is a luxury and even then it’s marginal.
The T31 has that capability also. Is it a luxury on the T31 too or is it just sensible to have the ability to land all of your helicopters on all of your flight decks.
This is the perfect opportunity to allow the T26 to revert to its global combat ship roots by procuring a combined AAW/ASW escort specifically to escort the CSG.Tempest414 wrote: ↑08 Jun 2023, 08:19 The High availability CSG needs 2 x Type 45's , 2 x Type 26 and a SSN to go to a Expeditionary strike group it would need 4 x T45 , 6 x T26 , 2 x T 31 and 2 x SSN
If eight T83’s can be procured with a combined AAW/ASW capability then the Royal Navy would have easily the largest and most capable naval fleet in Europe. A big win and all within budget if handled correctly. The lessons of T45 must not be forgotten.
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Re: Type 31 Frigate (Inspiration Class) [News Only]
I am sorry but the realty is type 26 unit price is 840 million which will become 900 million as the Batch 2's are getting at least 80 million in second hand parts from type 23's which will be found to be worn out or out of date and new replacements will be needed at a added costRepulse wrote: ↑08 Jun 2023, 08:30The RN could have got 10 T26s with the funds available and have money to spare, if the Treasury hadn’t pushed the £250mn frigate. Sure, the RN pitched it, but reality is that it was a bad move, and guess what this £250mn frigate will still end up to be double that. It’s naive beyond beliefTempest414 wrote: ↑08 Jun 2023, 08:19 What stops anything money but in this case it was HMG , HMT , MOD , BAE and the RN why? because they all let Type 26 get out of hand and the simple fact is all 13 would have cost 13+ billion
Maybe had HMG , MOD , BAE and the RN kept a grip on the Program and got on with it we could have had 13 maybe more and been in the running for USN FFGX program but no HMG , MOD dragged they feet and the RN and BAE couldn't stop playing and fucking with the design
The reality is that the unit price for each new T26 is £800mn. The government could have committed to a larger batch and would have got a better price and more ships. It’s only the Chinook capable landing pad that is a luxury and even then it’s marginal.
Nope - history and recent events with the T23 show we need 6 to guarantee two are available at short notice. I think 3 is needed minimum for a ESG so it’s 8.Tempest414 wrote: ↑08 Jun 2023, 08:19 The High availability CSG needs 2 x Type 45's , 2 x Type 26 and a SSN to go to a Expeditionary strike group it would need 4 x T45 , 6 x T26 , 2 x T 31 and 2 x SSN
As for recent events Type 23 is shot and costing millions just to keep them afloat and the only realty is the RN are nursing very worn out ships to replacement
Even if type 31 becomes a 340 or 380 million pound ship it will half the price of type 26 and if it dose become 380 million it will have 8 x NSM 32 Mk-41 cells and a HMS
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Re: Type 31 Frigate (Inspiration Class) [News Only]
You are talking about unit price? Or, program average price? The latter is £400M per unit without any NSM nor Mk.41. The same figure for T26 is £1Bn per unit. I guess you are talking about the former, and I agree it is not a bad number. (but with nothing in the Mk.41 VLS).Tempest414 wrote: ↑08 Jun 2023, 09:16 Even if type 31 becomes a 340 or 380 million pound ship it will half the price of type 26 and if it dose become 380 million it will have 8 x NSM 32 Mk-41 cells and a HMS
Re: Type 31 Frigate (Inspiration Class) [News Only]
Or the perfect opportunity to have about around 10 asw/aaw type 26 for the carrier and U.K. nuclear deterrent req and about 10 type 31 for global patrol and escort with a handful of rfa osv for unmanned systems around the U.K.
And spend he rest on submarines.
And spend he rest on submarines.
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Re: Type 31 Frigate (Inspiration Class) [News Only]
Right lets clear this up if we add the MK-41's , NSM and a HMS to type 31 we are looking at adding a bout 100 million per ship which will make there unit price 370 million and there program average 500 milliondonald_of_tokyo wrote: ↑08 Jun 2023, 14:25You are talking about unit price? Or, program average price? The latter is £400M per unit without any NSM nor Mk.41. The same figure for T26 is £1Bn per unit. I guess you are talking about the former, and I agree it is not a bad number. (but with nothing in the Mk.41 VLS).Tempest414 wrote: ↑08 Jun 2023, 09:16 Even if type 31 becomes a 340 or 380 million pound ship it will half the price of type 26 and if it dose become 380 million it will have 8 x NSM 32 Mk-41 cells and a HMS
what we know right now is type 26 Batch 2 unit price is 840 million which include second hand parts from type 23's however the program average price is 1.122 each as it stands today this comes from contracts sign starting in 2015 which included long lead parts for the first ships
859 million + 3.7 billion + 220 million + 4.2 billion = 8.979 billion =1.122 billion
Also to drop in but with nothing in the Mk-41 VLS goes for both type 31 and type 26 so there for dose not affect the unit price of ether ship
Re: Type 31 Frigate (Inspiration Class) [News Only]
Of all the ships that have Sylver only the six ASW French FREMMs have 2x8 A70 each. Their Horizons and other FREMMS, FDI and all other Navy's Sylver equipped vessels only have A50 max.new guy wrote: ↑08 Jun 2023, 06:57sylver 70. we have sylver 50.tomuk wrote: ↑08 Jun 2023, 03:38Indeed you can. Apart from the much talked about FCASW which surely the French would want to be Sylver compatible too what else is there?
Re: Type 31 Frigate (Inspiration Class) [News Only]
No they couldn't and the price of T26 isn't £800mRepulse wrote: ↑08 Jun 2023, 08:30 The RN could have got 10 T26s with the funds available and have money to spare, if the Treasury hadn’t pushed the £250mn frigate. Sure, the RN pitched it, but reality is that it was a bad move, and guess what this £250mn frigate will still end up to be double that. It’s naive beyond belief
The reality is that the unit price for each new T26 is £800mn. The government could have committed to a larger batch and would have got a better price and more ships. It’s only the Chinook capable landing pad that is a luxury and even then it’s marginal.
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Re: Type 31 Frigate (Inspiration Class) [News Only]
No objection. I think people tend to think things are easy with T31 and difficult with T26, or vice versa. No, both types cost "so-so", and both have a capability roughly proportional to their cost.Tempest414 wrote: ↑08 Jun 2023, 15:33Also to drop in but with nothing in the Mk-41 VLS goes for both type 31 and type 26 so there for dose not affect the unit price of ether ship
Modern escort is NOT cheap.
And, anyway, uparming and/or adding one or two hulls of T26 and T31, individually, will be much more cost efficient now than hoping any T32. It is dictated by man-power limit.
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