Type 31 Frigate (Inspiration Class) [News Only]

Contains threads on Royal Navy equipment of the past, present and future.

What will be the result of the 'Lighter Frigate' programme?

Programme cancelled, RN down to 14 escorts
52
10%
Programme cancelled & replaced with GP T26
14
3%
A number of heavy OPVs spun as "frigates"
127
25%
An LCS-like modular ship
22
4%
A modernised Type 23
24
5%
A Type 26-lite
71
14%
Less than 5 hulls
22
4%
5 hulls
71
14%
More than 5 hulls
103
20%
 
Total votes: 506

Ron5
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Re: Type 31 Frigate (Inspiration Class) [News Only]

Post by Ron5 »

tomuk wrote: 25 May 2023, 18:12
Ron5 wrote: 25 May 2023, 13:38 Not hard to identify the antennae and dishes on the DE&S/Babcock CGI to see they're a pretty skimpy lot. Same exercise on the T26 images reveals a much richer set.

Then look at the published Constellation equipment.

Comms & ESM can be very expensive. Easy place to save money with little visible evidence for the great unwashed. Constabulary & flag waving don't need much. You get what you paid for.
So you haven't really got any hard facts just supposition and generalities from looking at some CGIs.
I can identify equipment from the CGI's & drawings that have been released by the builders which have been, and are, pretty accurate. You on the other hand just have some minor debating skills.

tomuk
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Re: Type 31 Frigate (Inspiration Class) [News Only]

Post by tomuk »

Ron5 wrote: 27 May 2023, 13:41
tomuk wrote: 25 May 2023, 18:12
Ron5 wrote: 25 May 2023, 13:38 Not hard to identify the antennae and dishes on the DE&S/Babcock CGI to see they're a pretty skimpy lot. Same exercise on the T26 images reveals a much richer set.

Then look at the published Constellation equipment.

Comms & ESM can be very expensive. Easy place to save money with little visible evidence for the great unwashed. Constabulary & flag waving don't need much. You get what you paid for.
So you haven't really got any hard facts just supposition and generalities from looking at some CGIs.
I can identify equipment from the CGI's & drawings that have been released by the builders which have been, and are, pretty accurate. You on the other hand just have some minor debating skills.
So give us the details then. What sensors will be fitted? Which do you think are missing? Make a contribution to the discussion rather then just snide remarks.
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Ron5
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Re: Type 31 Frigate (Inspiration Class) [News Only]

Post by Ron5 »

tomuk wrote: 27 May 2023, 16:33
Ron5 wrote: 27 May 2023, 13:41
tomuk wrote: 25 May 2023, 18:12
Ron5 wrote: 25 May 2023, 13:38 Not hard to identify the antennae and dishes on the DE&S/Babcock CGI to see they're a pretty skimpy lot. Same exercise on the T26 images reveals a much richer set.

Then look at the published Constellation equipment.

Comms & ESM can be very expensive. Easy place to save money with little visible evidence for the great unwashed. Constabulary & flag waving don't need much. You get what you paid for.
So you haven't really got any hard facts just supposition and generalities from looking at some CGIs.
I can identify equipment from the CGI's & drawings that have been released by the builders which have been, and are, pretty accurate. You on the other hand just have some minor debating skills.
So give us the details then. What sensors will be fitted? Which do you think are missing? Make a contribution to the discussion rather then just snide remarks.
Back at ya kiddo.

new guy
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Re: Type 31 Frigate (Inspiration Class) [News Only]

Post by new guy »

Ron5 wrote: 29 May 2023, 13:38
tomuk wrote: 27 May 2023, 16:33
Ron5 wrote: 27 May 2023, 13:41
tomuk wrote: 25 May 2023, 18:12
Ron5 wrote: 25 May 2023, 13:38 Not hard to identify the antennae and dishes on the DE&S/Babcock CGI to see they're a pretty skimpy lot. Same exercise on the T26 images reveals a much richer set.

Then look at the published Constellation equipment.

Comms & ESM can be very expensive. Easy place to save money with little visible evidence for the great unwashed. Constabulary & flag waving don't need much. You get what you paid for.
So you haven't really got any hard facts just supposition and generalities from looking at some CGIs.
I can identify equipment from the CGI's & drawings that have been released by the builders which have been, and are, pretty accurate. You on the other hand just have some minor debating skills.
So give us the details then. What sensors will be fitted? Which do you think are missing? Make a contribution to the discussion rather then just snide remarks.
Back at ya kiddo.
Like tomuk said, if you think something, then back it up now, because you haven't before, rather than carrying on not giving us specifics.

Ron5
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Re: Type 31 Frigate (Inspiration Class) [News Only]

Post by Ron5 »

new guy wrote: 29 May 2023, 14:12
Ron5 wrote: 29 May 2023, 13:38
tomuk wrote: 27 May 2023, 16:33
Ron5 wrote: 27 May 2023, 13:41
tomuk wrote: 25 May 2023, 18:12
Ron5 wrote: 25 May 2023, 13:38 Not hard to identify the antennae and dishes on the DE&S/Babcock CGI to see they're a pretty skimpy lot. Same exercise on the T26 images reveals a much richer set.

Then look at the published Constellation equipment.

Comms & ESM can be very expensive. Easy place to save money with little visible evidence for the great unwashed. Constabulary & flag waving don't need much. You get what you paid for.
So you haven't really got any hard facts just supposition and generalities from looking at some CGIs.
I can identify equipment from the CGI's & drawings that have been released by the builders which have been, and are, pretty accurate. You on the other hand just have some minor debating skills.
So give us the details then. What sensors will be fitted? Which do you think are missing? Make a contribution to the discussion rather then just snide remarks.
Back at ya kiddo.
Like tomuk said, if you think something, then back it up now, because you haven't before, rather than carrying on not giving us specifics.
Back at ya kiddo

new guy
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Re: Type 31 Frigate (Inspiration Class) [News Only]

Post by new guy »

MK41 on T31. Assuming that per 32 (8x4, 8 pack costing ~£12m) costs ~£50m, that is £250m, or 1/8 of inital programme cost and probably 1/10 of eventual programme cost. How does this compare to TA/PS with torpedo launch method (Other than heli's, can include UAV).

JohnM
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Re: Type 31 Frigate (Inspiration Class) [News Only]

Post by JohnM »

new guy wrote: 30 May 2023, 13:46 MK41 on T31. Assuming that per 32 (8x4, 8 pack costing ~£12m) costs ~£50m, that is £250m, or 1/8 of inital programme cost and probably 1/10 of eventual programme cost. How does this compare to TA/PS with torpedo launch method (Other than heli's, can include UAV).
According to Shephard Media, the cost of 5 sets of 32-cell Mk41s is £93m, BEFORE integration costs. As per the RN, the ships are designed ready for MK41 integration, so I very much doubt the whole thing will cost much more than £120m...

new guy
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Re: Type 31 Frigate (Inspiration Class) [News Only]

Post by new guy »

JohnM wrote: 30 May 2023, 13:58
new guy wrote: 30 May 2023, 13:46 MK41 on T31. Assuming that per 32 (8x4, 8 pack costing ~£12m) costs ~£50m, that is £250m, or 1/8 of inital programme cost and probably 1/10 of eventual programme cost. How does this compare to TA/PS with torpedo launch method (Other than heli's, can include UAV).
According to Shephard Media, the cost of 5 sets of 32-cell Mk41s is £93m, BEFORE integration costs. As per the RN, the ships are designed ready for MK41 integration, so I very much doubt the whole thing will cost much more than £120m...
Cheaper than I thought.

donald_of_tokyo
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Re: Type 31 Frigate (Inspiration Class) [News Only]

Post by donald_of_tokyo »

JohnM wrote: 30 May 2023, 13:58
new guy wrote: 30 May 2023, 13:46 MK41 on T31. Assuming that per 32 (8x4, 8 pack costing ~£12m) costs ~£50m, that is £250m, or 1/8 of inital programme cost and probably 1/10 of eventual programme cost. How does this compare to TA/PS with torpedo launch method (Other than heli's, can include UAV).
According to Shephard Media, the cost of 5 sets of 32-cell Mk41s is £93m, BEFORE integration costs. As per the RN, the ships are designed ready for MK41 integration, so I very much doubt the whole thing will cost much more than £120m...
Mk.41 VLS is a box. Integration needs, welding, wiring, data-line connection, power, cooling water, alignment, fire-fighting sensor integrations, and verification/certification of all these issues. I'm not sure it all can be done with £27m/5 = £5m per hull. (I guess much more.)

In addition, you need to fill the "box". If TLAM, you need its own control box. You also need good software kits. (we all know software is NOT cheap. How much are we paying for windows and all the applications?). If FC/ASW, I'm sure you need some cable and also full-set of software integrated AND installed in the CMS. If CAMM, you need cable, ExLS system, CAMM launch management system box (3 or 4 boxes for 32 CAMM quad-packed in a 8-cell unit), installing the SeaCeptor software, and end-to-end testing of all these systems = verification/certification. (CMS integration of SeaCeptor software is already ordered from MBDA by MOD). These all cost to some extent.

"Cost of carrying Mk.41 VLS" is this cost.

Caribbean
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Re: Type 31 Frigate (Inspiration Class) [News Only]

Post by Caribbean »

JohnM wrote: 30 May 2023, 13:58
new guy wrote: 30 May 2023, 13:46 MK41 on T31. Assuming that per 32 (8x4, 8 pack costing ~£12m) costs ~£50m, that is £250m, or 1/8 of inital programme cost and probably 1/10 of eventual programme cost. How does this compare to TA/PS with torpedo launch method (Other than heli's, can include UAV).
According to Shephard Media, the cost of 5 sets of 32-cell Mk41s is £93m, BEFORE integration costs. As per the RN, the ships are designed ready for MK41 integration, so I very much doubt the whole thing will cost much more than £120m...
That is just for the cells themselves, however. There will be additional costs depending on what is chosen to fill the cells (though presumably those costs will be covered by their own budget). IIRC the mission planning and control suite for TLAM was around $40m (happy to be corrected on that, however)
The pessimist sees difficulty in every opportunity. The optimist sees the opportunity in every difficulty.
Winston Churchill

JohnM
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Re: Type 31 Frigate (Inspiration Class) [News Only]

Post by JohnM »

The extra integration costs will depend on how much the design is ready upfront. Don’t forget the Polish version will have them, so I’d guess the R&D involved would be minimal or zero. And the RN has stated multiple times the ships are MK41-ready… I really think you and Donald-san are overestimating the integration costs… now, the cost of filling those cells is a different matter altogether…

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Tempest414
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Re: Type 31 Frigate (Inspiration Class) [News Only]

Post by Tempest414 »

donald_of_tokyo wrote: 30 May 2023, 14:57
JohnM wrote: 30 May 2023, 13:58
new guy wrote: 30 May 2023, 13:46 MK41 on T31. Assuming that per 32 (8x4, 8 pack costing ~£12m) costs ~£50m, that is £250m, or 1/8 of inital programme cost and probably 1/10 of eventual programme cost. How does this compare to TA/PS with torpedo launch method (Other than heli's, can include UAV).
According to Shephard Media, the cost of 5 sets of 32-cell Mk41s is £93m, BEFORE integration costs. As per the RN, the ships are designed ready for MK41 integration, so I very much doubt the whole thing will cost much more than £120m...
Mk.41 VLS is a box. Integration needs, welding, wiring, data-line connection, power, cooling water, alignment, fire-fighting sensor integrations, and verification/certification of all these issues. I'm not sure it all can be done with £27m/5 = £5m per hull. (I guess much more.)

In addition, you need to fill the "box". If TLAM, you need its own control box. You also need good software kits. (we all know software is NOT cheap. How much are we paying for windows and all the applications?). If FC/ASW, I'm sure you need some cable and also full-set of software integrated AND installed in the CMS. If CAMM, you need cable, ExLS system, CAMM launch management system box (3 or 4 boxes for 32 CAMM quad-packed in a 8-cell unit), installing the SeaCeptor software, and end-to-end testing of all these systems = verification/certification. (CMS integration of SeaCeptor software is already ordered from MBDA by MOD). These all cost to some extent.

"Cost of carrying Mk.41 VLS" is this cost.
And again for context this all needs to be done for Type 26 which will be delivered with 24 Cell which will all need to be filled with all the same problems high lighted

lets say adding 5 sets of 32 Mk-41 cells to the 5 ships is 200 million this will take the cost of T-31 from what we know now which is 268 million per ship to 308 million per ship how this affects the 2 billion program costs we don't know because we don't know weather all of the 2 billion pounds was accounted for or if there was money held side in the program but if not it still only makes the program costs 2.2 billion and could see 5 new ships come into service fitted with

Good 3D radar , Good CMS , 2170 SSTD , 1 x 57mm , 2 x 40mm , 32 x Mk-41 cells , 1 x Wildcat with LMM & Sea Venom all with a crew of 117 plus Helicopter crew and 9000 Nm range which in my book makes it a very good global patrol frigate

new guy
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Re: Type 31 Frigate (Inspiration Class) [News Only]

Post by new guy »

Tempest414 wrote: 30 May 2023, 15:48
donald_of_tokyo wrote: 30 May 2023, 14:57
JohnM wrote: 30 May 2023, 13:58
new guy wrote: 30 May 2023, 13:46 MK41 on T31. Assuming that per 32 (8x4, 8 pack costing ~£12m) costs ~£50m, that is £250m, or 1/8 of inital programme cost and probably 1/10 of eventual programme cost. How does this compare to TA/PS with torpedo launch method (Other than heli's, can include UAV).
According to Shephard Media, the cost of 5 sets of 32-cell Mk41s is £93m, BEFORE integration costs. As per the RN, the ships are designed ready for MK41 integration, so I very much doubt the whole thing will cost much more than £120m...
Mk.41 VLS is a box. Integration needs, welding, wiring, data-line connection, power, cooling water, alignment, fire-fighting sensor integrations, and verification/certification of all these issues. I'm not sure it all can be done with £27m/5 = £5m per hull. (I guess much more.)

In addition, you need to fill the "box". If TLAM, you need its own control box. You also need good software kits. (we all know software is NOT cheap. How much are we paying for windows and all the applications?). If FC/ASW, I'm sure you need some cable and also full-set of software integrated AND installed in the CMS. If CAMM, you need cable, ExLS system, CAMM launch management system box (3 or 4 boxes for 32 CAMM quad-packed in a 8-cell unit), installing the SeaCeptor software, and end-to-end testing of all these systems = verification/certification. (CMS integration of SeaCeptor software is already ordered from MBDA by MOD). These all cost to some extent.

"Cost of carrying Mk.41 VLS" is this cost.
And again for context this all needs to be done for Type 26 which will be delivered with 24 Cell which will all need to be filled with all the same problems high lighted

lets say adding 5 sets of 32 Mk-41 cells to the 5 ships is 200 million this will take the cost of T-31 from what we know now which is 268 million per ship to 308 million per ship how this affects the 2 billion program costs we don't know because we don't know weather all of the 2 billion pounds was accounted for or if there was money held side in the program but if not it still only makes the program costs 2.2 billion and could see 5 new ships come into service fitted with

Good 3D radar , Good CMS , 2170 SSTD , 1 x 57mm , 2 x 40mm , 32 x Mk-41 cells , 1 x Wildcat with LMM & Sea Venom all with a crew of 117 plus Helicopter crew and 9000 Nm range which in my book makes it a very good global patrol frigate
117? I thought it was 100. Oh well. Also hopefully RN transfers the NSM as well.

donald_of_tokyo
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Re: Type 31 Frigate (Inspiration Class) [News Only]

Post by donald_of_tokyo »

JohnM wrote: 30 May 2023, 15:23 The extra integration costs will depend on how much the design is ready upfront. Don’t forget the Polish version will have them, so I’d guess the R&D involved would be minimal or zero. And the RN has stated multiple times the ships are MK41-ready… I really think you and Donald-san are overestimating the integration costs… now, the cost of filling those cells is a different matter altogether…
Sorry, my point is, buying a box (Mk.41) and integrating it into a warship (all the wires) is a different thing. The latter does cost, independent from its designing. Because of that, I separately mentioned
- the CMS integration and installation costs, which differs
- and never mentioned the Mk.41 integration-design cost. It is already designed, agree.

"Integration" is as such. Not just connecting the "USB cable". This is a complex war fighting system. Can you imagine how the verification documentation will be prepared so that the electric engineers with software engineers are verifying all the functioning of all the command and reactions from the system? You may even need to record the waveform of the signal cable. All documentation must be signed with qualified "quality control staff", who are payed a lot (as he/she has the responsibility to say, "it is integrated as designed").

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Re: Type 31 Frigate (Inspiration Class) [News Only]

Post by JohnM »

Of course I understand that, I’m an engineer myself, but I still think you’re overestimating those costs… we can agree to disagree, there’s no problem with that
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Tempest414
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Re: Type 31 Frigate (Inspiration Class) [News Only]

Post by Tempest414 »

new guy wrote: 30 May 2023, 15:56
Tempest414 wrote: 30 May 2023, 15:48
donald_of_tokyo wrote: 30 May 2023, 14:57
JohnM wrote: 30 May 2023, 13:58
new guy wrote: 30 May 2023, 13:46 MK41 on T31. Assuming that per 32 (8x4, 8 pack costing ~£12m) costs ~£50m, that is £250m, or 1/8 of inital programme cost and probably 1/10 of eventual programme cost. How does this compare to TA/PS with torpedo launch method (Other than heli's, can include UAV).
According to Shephard Media, the cost of 5 sets of 32-cell Mk41s is £93m, BEFORE integration costs. As per the RN, the ships are designed ready for MK41 integration, so I very much doubt the whole thing will cost much more than £120m...
Mk.41 VLS is a box. Integration needs, welding, wiring, data-line connection, power, cooling water, alignment, fire-fighting sensor integrations, and verification/certification of all these issues. I'm not sure it all can be done with £27m/5 = £5m per hull. (I guess much more.)

In addition, you need to fill the "box". If TLAM, you need its own control box. You also need good software kits. (we all know software is NOT cheap. How much are we paying for windows and all the applications?). If FC/ASW, I'm sure you need some cable and also full-set of software integrated AND installed in the CMS. If CAMM, you need cable, ExLS system, CAMM launch management system box (3 or 4 boxes for 32 CAMM quad-packed in a 8-cell unit), installing the SeaCeptor software, and end-to-end testing of all these systems = verification/certification. (CMS integration of SeaCeptor software is already ordered from MBDA by MOD). These all cost to some extent.

"Cost of carrying Mk.41 VLS" is this cost.
And again for context this all needs to be done for Type 26 which will be delivered with 24 Cell which will all need to be filled with all the same problems high lighted

lets say adding 5 sets of 32 Mk-41 cells to the 5 ships is 200 million this will take the cost of T-31 from what we know now which is 268 million per ship to 308 million per ship how this affects the 2 billion program costs we don't know because we don't know weather all of the 2 billion pounds was accounted for or if there was money held side in the program but if not it still only makes the program costs 2.2 billion and could see 5 new ships come into service fitted with

Good 3D radar , Good CMS , 2170 SSTD , 1 x 57mm , 2 x 40mm , 32 x Mk-41 cells , 1 x Wildcat with LMM & Sea Venom all with a crew of 117 plus Helicopter crew and 9000 Nm range which in my book makes it a very good global patrol frigate
117? I thought it was 100. Oh well. Also hopefully RN transfers the NSM as well.
What the Danish navy found with the IH class was that they could operate the ship and its systems with 100 crew but when they were put through FOST ( Flag Officer Sea Training ) with the RN they needed an extra 17 crew to deal with battle damage

As for NSM yes it just adds to what could be a very good ship

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Re: Type 31 Frigate (Inspiration Class) [News Only]

Post by new guy »

Tempest414 wrote: 30 May 2023, 16:22
new guy wrote: 30 May 2023, 15:56
Tempest414 wrote: 30 May 2023, 15:48
donald_of_tokyo wrote: 30 May 2023, 14:57
JohnM wrote: 30 May 2023, 13:58
new guy wrote: 30 May 2023, 13:46 MK41 on T31. Assuming that per 32 (8x4, 8 pack costing ~£12m) costs ~£50m, that is £250m, or 1/8 of inital programme cost and probably 1/10 of eventual programme cost. How does this compare to TA/PS with torpedo launch method (Other than heli's, can include UAV).
According to Shephard Media, the cost of 5 sets of 32-cell Mk41s is £93m, BEFORE integration costs. As per the RN, the ships are designed ready for MK41 integration, so I very much doubt the whole thing will cost much more than £120m...
Mk.41 VLS is a box. Integration needs, welding, wiring, data-line connection, power, cooling water, alignment, fire-fighting sensor integrations, and verification/certification of all these issues. I'm not sure it all can be done with £27m/5 = £5m per hull. (I guess much more.)

In addition, you need to fill the "box". If TLAM, you need its own control box. You also need good software kits. (we all know software is NOT cheap. How much are we paying for windows and all the applications?). If FC/ASW, I'm sure you need some cable and also full-set of software integrated AND installed in the CMS. If CAMM, you need cable, ExLS system, CAMM launch management system box (3 or 4 boxes for 32 CAMM quad-packed in a 8-cell unit), installing the SeaCeptor software, and end-to-end testing of all these systems = verification/certification. (CMS integration of SeaCeptor software is already ordered from MBDA by MOD). These all cost to some extent.

"Cost of carrying Mk.41 VLS" is this cost.
And again for context this all needs to be done for Type 26 which will be delivered with 24 Cell which will all need to be filled with all the same problems high lighted

lets say adding 5 sets of 32 Mk-41 cells to the 5 ships is 200 million this will take the cost of T-31 from what we know now which is 268 million per ship to 308 million per ship how this affects the 2 billion program costs we don't know because we don't know weather all of the 2 billion pounds was accounted for or if there was money held side in the program but if not it still only makes the program costs 2.2 billion and could see 5 new ships come into service fitted with

Good 3D radar , Good CMS , 2170 SSTD , 1 x 57mm , 2 x 40mm , 32 x Mk-41 cells , 1 x Wildcat with LMM & Sea Venom all with a crew of 117 plus Helicopter crew and 9000 Nm range which in my book makes it a very good global patrol frigate
117? I thought it was 100. Oh well. Also hopefully RN transfers the NSM as well.
What the Danish navy found with the IH class was that they could operate the ship and its systems with 100 crew but when they were put through FOST ( Flag Officer Sea Training ) with the RN they needed an extra 17 crew to deal with battle damage

As for NSM yes it just adds to what could be a very good ship
Thanks, helpful. I believe that Arrowhead has had major changes however including ones that effect crew count.

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Re: Type 31 Frigate (Inspiration Class) [News Only]

Post by NickC »

JohnM wrote: 30 May 2023, 13:58
new guy wrote: 30 May 2023, 13:46 MK41 on T31. Assuming that per 32 (8x4, 8 pack costing ~£12m) costs ~£50m, that is £250m, or 1/8 of inital programme cost and probably 1/10 of eventual programme cost. How does this compare to TA/PS with torpedo launch method (Other than heli's, can include UAV).
According to Shephard Media, the cost of 5 sets of 32-cell Mk41s is £93m, BEFORE integration costs. As per the RN, the ships are designed ready for MK41 integration, so I very much doubt the whole thing will cost much more than £120m...
The US Navy FY24 Justification Book for the two Constellation's quotes $53.3M for two sets of 32 Mk41 VLS cells, so approx £22M per 32 ship set, so five sets £110M depending on exchange rate at time.
Would have thought Babcock building to T31 spec which did not include Mk41s would not added any additional costs to have included any of the necessary facilities/services for Mk41s, so looking at unknown additional £Ms.

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Re: Type 31 Frigate (Inspiration Class) [News Only]

Post by tomuk »

NickC wrote: 31 May 2023, 12:38
JohnM wrote: 30 May 2023, 13:58
new guy wrote: 30 May 2023, 13:46 MK41 on T31. Assuming that per 32 (8x4, 8 pack costing ~£12m) costs ~£50m, that is £250m, or 1/8 of inital programme cost and probably 1/10 of eventual programme cost. How does this compare to TA/PS with torpedo launch method (Other than heli's, can include UAV).
According to Shephard Media, the cost of 5 sets of 32-cell Mk41s is £93m, BEFORE integration costs. As per the RN, the ships are designed ready for MK41 integration, so I very much doubt the whole thing will cost much more than £120m...
The US Navy FY24 Justification Book for the two Constellation's quotes $53.3M for two sets of 32 Mk41 VLS cells, so approx £22M per 32 ship set, so five sets £110M depending on exchange rate at time.
Would have thought Babcock building to T31 spec which did not include Mk41s would not added any additional costs to have included any of the necessary facilities/services for Mk41s, so looking at unknown additional £Ms.
T31 has always had the ability to support Mk41 built in. A quote from the paper presented by Babcock employees to the International Naval Engineering Conference and Exhibition last year.
As two examples of the adaptable features within the platform; the foundation structural seats for four 8-Cell Mk41
Strike Length VLS modules are built in the baseline Type 31 Frigate to accept the fit of these Mk41 modules if
required in the future, and electrical power generation systems in Type 31 create in excess of a megawatt of power
margin solely assigned to be harnessed by future capabilities as technologies develop.

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Re: Type 31 Frigate (Inspiration Class) [News Only]

Post by NickC »

tomuk wrote: 31 May 2023, 20:21
NickC wrote: 31 May 2023, 12:38
JohnM wrote: 30 May 2023, 13:58
new guy wrote: 30 May 2023, 13:46 MK41 on T31. Assuming that per 32 (8x4, 8 pack costing ~£12m) costs ~£50m, that is £250m, or 1/8 of inital programme cost and probably 1/10 of eventual programme cost. How does this compare to TA/PS with torpedo launch method (Other than heli's, can include UAV).
According to Shephard Media, the cost of 5 sets of 32-cell Mk41s is £93m, BEFORE integration costs. As per the RN, the ships are designed ready for MK41 integration, so I very much doubt the whole thing will cost much more than £120m...
The US Navy FY24 Justification Book for the two Constellation's quotes $53.3M for two sets of 32 Mk41 VLS cells, so approx £22M per 32 ship set, so five sets £110M depending on exchange rate at time.
Would have thought Babcock building to T31 spec which did not include Mk41s would not added any additional costs to have included any of the necessary facilities/services for Mk41s, so looking at unknown additional £Ms.
T31 has always had the ability to support Mk41 built in. A quote from the paper presented by Babcock employees to the International Naval Engineering Conference and Exhibition last year.
As two examples of the adaptable features within the platform; the foundation structural seats for four 8-Cell Mk41
Strike Length VLS modules are built in the baseline Type 31 Frigate to accept the fit of these Mk41 modules if
required in the future, and electrical power generation systems in Type 31 create in excess of a megawatt of power
margin solely assigned to be harnessed by future capabilities as technologies develop.
Thx for the good news that the VLS foundations built in, but no info on T31 if space was just left vacant (as in T45 and used as gym) or allocated to other uses that will need to be changed, but never doubted the ships MTU DGs had enough surplus power (though less powerful than the Caterpillar DG's fitted in the IH class) and enough surplus water tankage for the deluge ops and sprinklers for fitting the Mk41s, as said it would be the unknown additional cost for any modifications and for installing the services and fitting the Mk41s.

tomuk
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Re: Type 31 Frigate (Inspiration Class) [News Only]

Post by tomuk »

NickC wrote: 01 Jun 2023, 10:47
tomuk wrote: 31 May 2023, 20:21
NickC wrote: 31 May 2023, 12:38
JohnM wrote: 30 May 2023, 13:58
new guy wrote: 30 May 2023, 13:46 MK41 on T31. Assuming that per 32 (8x4, 8 pack costing ~£12m) costs ~£50m, that is £250m, or 1/8 of inital programme cost and probably 1/10 of eventual programme cost. How does this compare to TA/PS with torpedo launch method (Other than heli's, can include UAV).
According to Shephard Media, the cost of 5 sets of 32-cell Mk41s is £93m, BEFORE integration costs. As per the RN, the ships are designed ready for MK41 integration, so I very much doubt the whole thing will cost much more than £120m...
The US Navy FY24 Justification Book for the two Constellation's quotes $53.3M for two sets of 32 Mk41 VLS cells, so approx £22M per 32 ship set, so five sets £110M depending on exchange rate at time.
Would have thought Babcock building to T31 spec which did not include Mk41s would not added any additional costs to have included any of the necessary facilities/services for Mk41s, so looking at unknown additional £Ms.
T31 has always had the ability to support Mk41 built in. A quote from the paper presented by Babcock employees to the International Naval Engineering Conference and Exhibition last year.
As two examples of the adaptable features within the platform; the foundation structural seats for four 8-Cell Mk41
Strike Length VLS modules are built in the baseline Type 31 Frigate to accept the fit of these Mk41 modules if
required in the future, and electrical power generation systems in Type 31 create in excess of a megawatt of power
margin solely assigned to be harnessed by future capabilities as technologies develop.
Thx for the good news that the VLS foundations built in, but no info on T31 if space was just left vacant (as in T45 and used as gym) or allocated to other uses that will need to be changed, but never doubted the ships MTU DGs had enough surplus power (though less powerful than the Caterpillar DG's fitted in the IH class) and enough surplus water tankage for the deluge ops and sprinklers for fitting the Mk41s, as said it would be the unknown additional cost for any modifications and for installing the services and fitting the Mk41s.
Why are you looking for issues? The parent IH is fitted with Mk41 in the same location, the 'current' T31 config has CAMM mushroom launchers in the Mk41 location, the manufacturer says that the platform is flexible and Mk41 is a specific part of this modularity, the Polish version has Mk41, the former First Sea Lord said the RN were thinking of fitting Mk41 previously, the current First Sea Lord has stated it is the RNs intention to fit Mk41. Will it cost ore than the previous CAMM baseline? yes Are the additional costs unknown or excessive? Id rather think that they aren't.
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JohnM
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Re: Type 31 Frigate (Inspiration Class) [News Only]

Post by JohnM »

tomuk wrote: 01 Jun 2023, 19:36
NickC wrote: 01 Jun 2023, 10:47
tomuk wrote: 31 May 2023, 20:21
NickC wrote: 31 May 2023, 12:38
JohnM wrote: 30 May 2023, 13:58
new guy wrote: 30 May 2023, 13:46 MK41 on T31. Assuming that per 32 (8x4, 8 pack costing ~£12m) costs ~£50m, that is £250m, or 1/8 of inital programme cost and probably 1/10 of eventual programme cost. How does this compare to TA/PS with torpedo launch method (Other than heli's, can include UAV).
According to Shephard Media, the cost of 5 sets of 32-cell Mk41s is £93m, BEFORE integration costs. As per the RN, the ships are designed ready for MK41 integration, so I very much doubt the whole thing will cost much more than £120m...
The US Navy FY24 Justification Book for the two Constellation's quotes $53.3M for two sets of 32 Mk41 VLS cells, so approx £22M per 32 ship set, so five sets £110M depending on exchange rate at time.
Would have thought Babcock building to T31 spec which did not include Mk41s would not added any additional costs to have included any of the necessary facilities/services for Mk41s, so looking at unknown additional £Ms.
T31 has always had the ability to support Mk41 built in. A quote from the paper presented by Babcock employees to the International Naval Engineering Conference and Exhibition last year.
As two examples of the adaptable features within the platform; the foundation structural seats for four 8-Cell Mk41
Strike Length VLS modules are built in the baseline Type 31 Frigate to accept the fit of these Mk41 modules if
required in the future, and electrical power generation systems in Type 31 create in excess of a megawatt of power
margin solely assigned to be harnessed by future capabilities as technologies develop.
Thx for the good news that the VLS foundations built in, but no info on T31 if space was just left vacant (as in T45 and used as gym) or allocated to other uses that will need to be changed, but never doubted the ships MTU DGs had enough surplus power (though less powerful than the Caterpillar DG's fitted in the IH class) and enough surplus water tankage for the deluge ops and sprinklers for fitting the Mk41s, as said it would be the unknown additional cost for any modifications and for installing the services and fitting the Mk41s.
Why are you looking for issues? The parent IH is fitted with Mk41 in the same location, the 'current' T31 config has CAMM mushroom launchers in the Mk41 location, the manufacturer says that the platform is flexible and Mk41 is a specific part of this modularity, the Polish version has Mk41, the former First Sea Lord said the RN were thinking of fitting Mk41 previously, the current First Sea Lord has stated it is the RNs intention to fit Mk41. Will it cost ore than the previous CAMM baseline? yes Are the additional costs unknown or excessive? Id rather think that they aren't.
Thank you!! Some people just can't resist finding problems everywhere... it's not that complicated or expensive to add MK41 immediately to ALL T31s, including the first one... it'll be floated off later this year and then it will be fitting for the next two years and be delivered to the RN in 2025. That's an ENORMITY of time to install MK41 launchers... Geez...
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bobp
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Re: Type 31 Frigate (Inspiration Class) [News Only]

Post by bobp »

Surely it will cost more to fit CAMM launchers and then remove them for MK41

tomuk
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Re: Type 31 Frigate (Inspiration Class) [News Only]

Post by tomuk »

bobp wrote: 01 Jun 2023, 21:41 Surely it will cost more to fit CAMM launchers and then remove them for MK41
I don't even think they've built that section of the ship yet let a lone fitted any CAMM launchers to it.
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Jdam
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Re: Type 31 Frigate (Inspiration Class) [News Only]

Post by Jdam »

If they were to fit the Mk41, do we know if it will replace or if it will complement the current proposed CAAM launchers, thinking of how the Type 26 will have both.

I could be another case of launching a ship with a MK41 gym. ;)

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