Type 31 Frigate (Inspiration Class) [News Only]

Contains threads on Royal Navy equipment of the past, present and future.

What will be the result of the 'Lighter Frigate' programme?

Programme cancelled, RN down to 14 escorts
52
10%
Programme cancelled & replaced with GP T26
14
3%
A number of heavy OPVs spun as "frigates"
127
25%
An LCS-like modular ship
22
4%
A modernised Type 23
24
5%
A Type 26-lite
71
14%
Less than 5 hulls
22
4%
5 hulls
71
14%
More than 5 hulls
103
20%
 
Total votes: 506

CraigL
Junior Member
Posts: 3
Joined: 22 Jan 2023, 22:21
United Kingdom

Re: Type 31 Frigate (Inspiration Class) [News Only]

Post by CraigL »

This discussion seems to be going round and round in circles, having lurked for awhile.

The 11 sets of NSM are clearly going to equip every active UK escort until FCASW is deployed hence the "interim".

With the PIP on the 45's and LIFEX on the 23's clearly Wallace has taken the view that no RN Escort should sail without anti-ship weapons. Being cannister launched they will just rotate around.

Therefore Type 31 will have NSM from the outset and will have some limited land attack function. It's basically our LCS.

wargame_insomniac
Senior Member
Posts: 1135
Joined: 20 Nov 2021, 19:12
United Kingdom

Re: Type 31 Frigate (Inspiration Class) [News Only]

Post by wargame_insomniac »

dmereifield wrote: 22 Jan 2023, 21:46 They won't have NSM when they're commissioned...
They will be moved off the T23s as and when they are decommissioned.

Now because currently the RN is so tight for crew (see the early decommissioning on Monmouth already and Montrose imminently) so that the crew are swapped between T23's going into refurb and coming out of Lifex, then we are unlikely to have spare trained crew just hanging around.....

That will mean that as both T26s and T31s are coming near to being commisioned, then the corresponding T23 will be retired bforehand so that crew can be retrained ready for new vessel. The Canister mounted NSM's will be transferred at that point that the respective T23 is being decommissioned.

donald_of_tokyo
Senior Member
Posts: 5545
Joined: 06 May 2015, 13:18
Japan

Re: Type 31 Frigate (Inspiration Class) [News Only]

Post by donald_of_tokyo »

wargame_insomniac wrote: 23 Jan 2023, 00:11
dmereifield wrote: 22 Jan 2023, 21:46 They won't have NSM when they're commissioned...
They will be moved off the T23s as and when they are decommissioned.

Now because currently the RN is so tight for crew (see the early decommissioning on Monmouth already and Montrose imminently) so that the crew are swapped between T23's going into refurb and coming out of Lifex, then we are unlikely to have spare trained crew just hanging around.....

That will mean that as both T26s and T31s are coming near to being commisioned, then the corresponding T23 will be retired bforehand so that crew can be retrained ready for new vessel. The Canister mounted NSM's will be transferred at that point that the respective T23 is being decommissioned.
No big objection, but I guess that is the reason NSM order was for 11-sets? 6 (or 5) for T45, and 5 (or 6) for T23ASW? (which means, only 5 or 6 T23ASW will be "on service" at any moment). Not enough for all 6+8 T45 and T23ASW active "on paper", but enough for those "actually" active.

The "4th" T23ASW will decommission around 2031. Then the NSM will be moved to either T26 (if FC/ASW is very delayed and TLAM BlkV not ordered) or T31. If it is T31, then the first T31 will get NSM around 2032, I guess. It is about 4-7 years after delivery to RN (2025-2028), and 3-5 years after being accepted into service.

Actually, it is likely not so bad?

User avatar
wirralpete
Member
Posts: 52
Joined: 01 May 2015, 11:16
United Kingdom

Re: Type 31 Frigate (Inspiration Class) [News Only]

Post by wirralpete »

Or 2 taps 2 saw 45 2 31’s nice 👍 good for us east of suez

donald_of_tokyo
Senior Member
Posts: 5545
Joined: 06 May 2015, 13:18
Japan

Re: Type 31 Frigate (Inspiration Class) [News Only]

Post by donald_of_tokyo »

Thales Defence has completed manufacture of TACTICOS Combat Management System shipset for first Type 31 frigate.

Comprises 11 MOC Mk4 multifunction consoles for ops room (+1 additional console on the bridge) and nine electronics cabinets.


So, 11 consoles in CIC. How many console are there in T23's CIC?

These users liked the author donald_of_tokyo for the post (total 2):
Ron5bobp

NickC
Donator
Posts: 1432
Joined: 01 Sep 2017, 14:20
United Kingdom

Re: Type 31 Frigate (Inspiration Class) [News Only]

Post by NickC »

Tempest414 wrote: 22 Jan 2023, 16:31
NickC wrote: 22 Jan 2023, 15:00
Tempest414 wrote: 22 Jan 2023, 14:45 The type 31 will also have Info coming to it in the form of MPAs flown by allies in the region and will know of any build up against it
On June 20, 2019, Iran's integrated system of Air Defense Forces shot down a United States RQ-4A Global Hawk BAMS-D surveillance drone with a surface-to-air missile over the Strait of Hormuz.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2019_Iran ... ican_drone

Don't think anyone is going to risk operating a MPA in the area.
don't be a twat MPA's operate in the area all day and all night 356 days a year Iran pushed its luck and shot down a drone had that been the P8 that was also operating in the area at the same all hell would of broken out do you really think for one second that the allies are going to let Iran push them out of the straits
I could envisage a scenario where the Iranian fanatical hard liners if opportunity arose press the red button and close the Straits of Hormuz and the T31 was called upon to escort oil and gas tankers through the Straits.

You could have a US President like the current German Chancellor Scholz too afraid of his own shadow to supply Leopard 2 tanks to Ukraine, who knows what the future will bring.

User avatar
Tempest414
Senior Member
Posts: 5550
Joined: 04 Jan 2018, 23:39
France

Re: Type 31 Frigate (Inspiration Class) [News Only]

Post by Tempest414 »

NickC wrote: 23 Jan 2023, 10:57
Tempest414 wrote: 22 Jan 2023, 16:31
NickC wrote: 22 Jan 2023, 15:00
Tempest414 wrote: 22 Jan 2023, 14:45 The type 31 will also have Info coming to it in the form of MPAs flown by allies in the region and will know of any build up against it
On June 20, 2019, Iran's integrated system of Air Defense Forces shot down a United States RQ-4A Global Hawk BAMS-D surveillance drone with a surface-to-air missile over the Strait of Hormuz.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2019_Iran ... ican_drone

Don't think anyone is going to risk operating a MPA in the area.
don't be a twat MPA's operate in the area all day and all night 356 days a year Iran pushed its luck and shot down a drone had that been the P8 that was also operating in the area at the same all hell would of broken out do you really think for one second that the allies are going to let Iran push them out of the straits
I could envisage a scenario where the Iranian fanatical hard liners if opportunity arose press the red button and close the Straits of Hormuz and the T31 was called upon to escort oil and gas tankers through the Straits.

You could have a US President like the current German Chancellor Scholz too afraid of his own shadow to supply Leopard 2 tanks to Ukraine, who knows what the future will bring.
Said type 31 would not be alone and would have air cover from land bases in the region Iran is in no place to go toe to toe with anyone this is why they fuck about with grey zone actions
These users liked the author Tempest414 for the post (total 2):
donald_of_tokyoRon5

Ron5
Donator
Posts: 7249
Joined: 05 May 2015, 21:42
United States of America

Re: Type 31 Frigate (Inspiration Class) [News Only]

Post by Ron5 »

wargame_insomniac wrote: 21 Jan 2023, 22:52
A very flawed analysis:

1. Comparing different contracts divided by production runs is a fools game. What is included or excluded from each contract?

2. T26 GP was to be a cheaper version with fewer systems. It could have gone even cheaper - T26 GP-lite

3. T26GP would not incur the FOC costs contained within the first contract

4. T26 costs have been inflated by the Treasury's insistence on a slow build which increases unit costs by lowering annual cash flow. An increased order of t26 from 8 to 13 could have removed this problem.

5. Building an additional 5 T26 to the same basic design would have reduced the average unit cost significantly by extending the learning curve

Now having said that, if we believe the proven liar, Geo Osbourne, the hypothetical 5 T26 GP would have cost more than the entire T31 budget because otherwise there would be no reason for the T31. And the total had to be 13 to meet Cameron's promise to wee jimmy.

My less than scientific guess is that 5 T26 GP-lite's could have been contracted for an average of about 550m each. Based on that flimsy guess, who would want 5 T32 at 2billion or 5 T26GP at 2.75billion or 4 T26-GP lite at 2.2 billion? All at considerably less risk of cost & schedule escalation.

*T26 GP lite could, for example, have a 57mm gun instead of the very expensive T45 plus automated magazine, FFBNW mk 41 cells, Bofors 40mm instead of Phalanx, no fancy Rolls Royce mission bay crane etc etc.

But all importantly, would retain the ability to be retrofitted up to the full fat T26 standard.
These users liked the author Ron5 for the post (total 2):
donald_of_tokyoserge750

Ron5
Donator
Posts: 7249
Joined: 05 May 2015, 21:42
United States of America

Re: Type 31 Frigate (Inspiration Class) [News Only]

Post by Ron5 »

wargame_insomniac wrote: 22 Jan 2023, 17:07
donald_of_tokyo wrote: 22 Jan 2023, 15:33
Ron5 wrote: 22 Jan 2023, 14:41Many moons ago, the RN decided helos were the answer to fast boats. And has proved since that it was a good choice. I don't see that anything has materially affected this either way since. Wildcat radar detects hostile small boat many miles from host ship, helo sinks boat with missile or gun. End of story.
So now with BOTH (up to 2) Wildcats and USN-designed state of the art "57mm with ALaMO" capable, T31 is much more capable in tasks at strait of Hormuz than any of the exiting RN assets.

I actually think this fact make T31 distinct from T21. T21 was a ship which can do anything in 2nd or 3rd-rated level. T21's
- ASW was low,
- NGFS is normal,
- ASuW was normal,
- and AAW was miserably low.

T31's
- ASW is low (but brand-new torpedo defense makes big sense),
- NGFS is not required anymore,
- ASuW is low against frigate level, but the RN's best asset against fast-boat swarm
- AAW is low against hi-end ASM, but the RN's best asset against UAV drones.

This is why I say T31 is NOT BAD. It is well designed for their task. Very different from T21, which was not useless, but good for nothing.
And that is the T31 as presently understood to be equipped a built.

Firstly, we have assumed that only 12 CAMM - I hope this number can be increased, quickly and easily increased on handover for outfitting to at least 24, which would double it's endurance in AAW.

Secondly the RN is acquiring 11 sets of NSM. Clearly in the short term they will be allocated to T45's and T23's. WE know the T26's are fitted with 24 Mark 41 "strike-length VLS" cells, and that is expectd to carry the FC/ASW anti-ship missile. Therefore I think it is no coincidence that the 11 sets ordered will match precisely with 6*T45's and 5*T31s. We know that the Iver Huidfeldt class can carry up to 16*Harpoon Block II SSM - therefore the T31s should easily be able to accomodate the likely 8*NSMs.

The increase to 24 CAMM and 8 NSM I believe are the two most likeiest upgrades to T31, in terms of low cost considering initial acquisition cost, subsequent upkeep cost, and additional crew requirements.
(Note the RN would have alreasy bought the NSM - therefore would just be marginal cost of moving them to T31s from T23s, as the T23s are retired).

Therefore by the time they are actively commissioned into RN, I believe they would have better ASuW and AAW than you have factored in. (Add a sonar and they would be better at ASW also, even if they are never as good as the much more expensive ASW specialist T26s).
Why would the navy put anti-ship missiles on a ship designed for peacetime duties rather than the T26 which is designed for war?

Poiuytrewq
Senior Member
Posts: 3956
Joined: 15 Dec 2017, 10:25
United Kingdom

Re: Type 31 Frigate (Inspiration Class) [News Only]

Post by Poiuytrewq »

Ron5 wrote: 23 Jan 2023, 18:33
T26 GP-lite
The one that got away!

57mm
2x 40mm
Artisan
24x CAMM
8x NSM
2150

Add Captas 4 compact and additional CAMM via PODs if required

Removing the Mk45 plus auto mag, Mk41 cells, 2087 and the TLAM capability would save a serious amount of cash.

A mixture of these and next-gen OPV’s still is a much better option than a mixture of T26 and T31.

Even if the T26 lites cost £650m a hull, the £4bn T31/T32 budget would still have procured FIVE T26 lites plus five large multipurpose OPVs at £150m a hull.
These users liked the author Poiuytrewq for the post (total 2):
donald_of_tokyoRon5

wargame_insomniac
Senior Member
Posts: 1135
Joined: 20 Nov 2021, 19:12
United Kingdom

Re: Type 31 Frigate (Inspiration Class) [News Only]

Post by wargame_insomniac »

Ron5 wrote: 23 Jan 2023, 18:33
wargame_insomniac wrote: 21 Jan 2023, 22:52
A very flawed analysis:

1. Comparing different contracts divided by production runs is a fools game. What is included or excluded from each contract?

2. T26 GP was to be a cheaper version with fewer systems. It could have gone even cheaper - T26 GP-lite

3. T26GP would not incur the FOC costs contained within the first contract

4. T26 costs have been inflated by the Treasury's insistence on a slow build which increases unit costs by lowering annual cash flow. An increased order of t26 from 8 to 13 could have removed this problem.

5. Building an additional 5 T26 to the same basic design would have reduced the average unit cost significantly by extending the learning curve

Now having said that, if we believe the proven liar, Geo Osbourne, the hypothetical 5 T26 GP would have cost more than the entire T31 budget because otherwise there would be no reason for the T31. And the total had to be 13 to meet Cameron's promise to wee jimmy.

My less than scientific guess is that 5 T26 GP-lite's could have been contracted for an average of about 550m each. Based on that flimsy guess, who would want 5 T32 at 2billion or 5 T26GP at 2.75billion or 4 T26-GP lite at 2.2 billion? All at considerably less risk of cost & schedule escalation.

*T26 GP lite could, for example, have a 57mm gun instead of the very expensive T45 plus automated magazine, FFBNW mk 41 cells, Bofors 40mm instead of Phalanx, no fancy Rolls Royce mission bay crane etc etc.

But all importantly, would retain the ability to be retrofitted up to the full fat T26 standard.
"My less than scientific guess".....

I am glad that, for once, you are presenting your opinion as a guess rather than solid fact.

1) Initial contract for £3.7bn on 3 Batch 1 ships as per MOD @ 03/07/2017:

https://des.mod.uk/royal-navys-type-26- ... ct-signed/

2) Additional costs on 3 Batch 1 ships, as per Ben Wallace @ 02/11/2022:

" the Department is forecasting a 12-month delay to the Type 26 initial operating capability (IOC) from October 2027 to October 2028. A proportion of the associated cost growth will fall to the contractor as part of the target cost incentive fee (TCIF) commercial arrangements. The resultant cost growth for the MOD is 4.2% over forecast, which is £233 million over the life of the programme."

https://hansard.parliament.uk/Commons/2 ... pe26Batch1


3) The marginal cost for the 5*T26 Batch 2 ships is £4.2bn = £840m per ship @ 15/11/2022:

https://www.gov.uk/government/news/brit ... navy-ships

The fact is that the first batch of 3*T26 were ordered on a non-fixed price contract from BAE, and have ALREADY come in 4.2% over Budget = additional cost of £233m.

My opinion is that that there will be further costs overuns from BAE on the second batch 5*T26. Therefore my opinion / educated guess is that the marginal costs of ordering these 5*T26 Batch 2 will be far in excess of £840m per ship. It is ok if you have a different opinion on that.

The fact is that the 5*T31 were ordered on a fixed price contract with Babcock.

You can throw speculation around what a T26 GP lite would have cost - any such costings is pure guesswork.

My opinion is that we will have purchased 5*T31 on aforementioned fixd price contract for far less than the marginal costs for ordering the 5*T26 Batch 2. My opinion is that I expect that the marginal cost of ordering these 5*T26 Batch 2 will end up well in excess of £5bn or £1bn per ship. My opinion is that the cost of ordering these 5*T31 will be £1.2bn total for the fixed price contract, plus an additional £0.8bn for GFE.

If you have different opinions then that is fine.
These users liked the author wargame_insomniac for the post (total 2):
Tempest414MikeKiloPapa

User avatar
Tempest414
Senior Member
Posts: 5550
Joined: 04 Jan 2018, 23:39
France

Re: Type 31 Frigate (Inspiration Class) [News Only]

Post by Tempest414 »

What is the Price of the kit

Mk45 127mm + auto loader ?
Towed Sonar
24 Mk-41 VLS
Mission bay handling system ( but removing this makes the space useless)

Now I do have to agree that slow build rate will effect the cost and until type 31 deploys on its first deployment we will not know the full cost but what we do know so far is

type 26
2015 = 859 million to continue design work towards manufacturing
2017= 3.7 billion to build first 3 ships
2022 = 233 million over run on first 3 ships
2022= 4.2 billion to build 5 ships
Total = 9 billion so far

type 31
total 2 billion so far

My simple guess is if we striped out a type 26 of the list above and fitted said 57mm and 2 x 40mm the new type 26 paper frigate would cost about 650 to 680 million

SW1
Senior Member
Posts: 5657
Joined: 27 Aug 2018, 19:12
United Kingdom

Re: Type 31 Frigate (Inspiration Class) [News Only]

Post by SW1 »

Tempest414 wrote: 24 Jan 2023, 09:48 What is the Price of the kit

Mk45 127mm + auto loader ?
Towed Sonar
24 Mk-41 VLS
Mission bay handling system ( but removing this makes the space useless)

Now I do have to agree that slow build rate will effect the cost and until type 31 deploys on its first deployment we will not know the full cost but what we do know so far is

type 26
2015 = 859 million to continue design work towards manufacturing
2017= 3.7 billion to build first 3 ships
2022 = 233 million over run on first 3 ships
2022= 4.2 billion to build 5 ships
Total = 9 billion so far

type 31
total 4 billion so far

My simple guess is if we striped out a type 26 of the list above and fitted said 57mm and 2 x 40mm the new type 26 paper frigate would cost about 650 to 680 million
Where did your type 31 cost come from?

NickC
Donator
Posts: 1432
Joined: 01 Sep 2017, 14:20
United Kingdom

Re: Type 31 Frigate (Inspiration Class) [News Only]

Post by NickC »

SW1 wrote: 24 Jan 2023, 10:32
Tempest414 wrote: 24 Jan 2023, 09:48 What is the Price of the kit

Mk45 127mm + auto loader ?
Towed Sonar
24 Mk-41 VLS
Mission bay handling system ( but removing this makes the space useless)

Now I do have to agree that slow build rate will effect the cost and until type 31 deploys on its first deployment we will not know the full cost but what we do know so far is

type 26
2015 = 859 million to continue design work towards manufacturing
2017= 3.7 billion to build first 3 ships
2022 = 233 million over run on first 3 ships
2022= 4.2 billion to build 5 ships
Total = 9 billion so far

type 31
total 4 billion so far

My simple guess is if we striped out a type 26 of the list above and fitted said 57mm and 2 x 40mm the new type 26 paper frigate would cost about 650 to 680 million
Where did your type 31 cost come from?
Price of kit

Jul 2016 MoD placed direct contract on BAE Systems Inc, not BAE Systems plc, so GFE? for the Mk 45 5" guns with its automated magazine ammunition handling system, gun fire control system, and qualified ammunition, $245 million. Understood the contract for thee ship systems and one land training version, presumably with options for additional five.

The S2087 sonars to be transferred from T23, though if memory correct RN did buy additional one for first ship, approx £20 million? (in 2005 Thales awarded £17m to provide two Batch 2 S2087s for T23 ASW ships 7 and 8).

24 Mk 41 VLS cells, no info on T26 costs, but the US Navy FY Justification Book shows cost of 32 Mk41 VLS cells for their Constellation frigate as $23.1 million.

No info on cost of the mission bay handling equipment, vague memory being supplied by a Canadian company.

User avatar
Tempest414
Senior Member
Posts: 5550
Joined: 04 Jan 2018, 23:39
France

Re: Type 31 Frigate (Inspiration Class) [News Only]

Post by Tempest414 »

SW1 wrote: 24 Jan 2023, 10:32
Tempest414 wrote: 24 Jan 2023, 09:48 What is the Price of the kit

Mk45 127mm + auto loader ?
Towed Sonar
24 Mk-41 VLS
Mission bay handling system ( but removing this makes the space useless)

Now I do have to agree that slow build rate will effect the cost and until type 31 deploys on its first deployment we will not know the full cost but what we do know so far is

type 26
2015 = 859 million to continue design work towards manufacturing
2017= 3.7 billion to build first 3 ships
2022 = 233 million over run on first 3 ships
2022= 4.2 billion to build 5 ships
Total = 9 billion so far

type 31
total 4 billion so far

My simple guess is if we striped out a type 26 of the list above and fitted said 57mm and 2 x 40mm the new type 26 paper frigate would cost about 650 to 680 million
Where did your type 31 cost come from?
Sorry you are right it is 2 billion not 4 billion I will change the above

SW1
Senior Member
Posts: 5657
Joined: 27 Aug 2018, 19:12
United Kingdom

Re: Type 31 Frigate (Inspiration Class) [News Only]

Post by SW1 »

Tempest414 wrote: 24 Jan 2023, 13:33
SW1 wrote: 24 Jan 2023, 10:32
Tempest414 wrote: 24 Jan 2023, 09:48 What is the Price of the kit

Mk45 127mm + auto loader ?
Towed Sonar
24 Mk-41 VLS
Mission bay handling system ( but removing this makes the space useless)

Now I do have to agree that slow build rate will effect the cost and until type 31 deploys on its first deployment we will not know the full cost but what we do know so far is

type 26
2015 = 859 million to continue design work towards manufacturing
2017= 3.7 billion to build first 3 ships
2022 = 233 million over run on first 3 ships
2022= 4.2 billion to build 5 ships
Total = 9 billion so far

type 31
total 4 billion so far

My simple guess is if we striped out a type 26 of the list above and fitted said 57mm and 2 x 40mm the new type 26 paper frigate would cost about 650 to 680 million
Where did your type 31 cost come from?
Sorry you are right it is 2 billion not 4 billion I will change the above
No issue just thought a cost overrun had been sent out.

Ron5
Donator
Posts: 7249
Joined: 05 May 2015, 21:42
United States of America

Re: Type 31 Frigate (Inspiration Class) [News Only]

Post by Ron5 »

Poiuytrewq wrote: 23 Jan 2023, 19:53
Ron5 wrote: 23 Jan 2023, 18:33
T26 GP-lite
The one that got away!

57mm
2x 40mm
Artisan
24x CAMM
8x NSM
2150

Add Captas 4 compact and additional CAMM via PODs if required

Removing the Mk45 plus auto mag, Mk41 cells, 2087 and the TLAM capability would save a serious amount of cash.

A mixture of these and next-gen OPV’s still is a much better option than a mixture of T26 and T31.

Even if the T26 lites cost £650m a hull, the £4bn T31/T32 budget would still have procured FIVE T26 lites plus five large multipurpose OPVs at £150m a hull.
Love to see your drawing of a T26 GP-lite but I understand why not.

Ron5
Donator
Posts: 7249
Joined: 05 May 2015, 21:42
United States of America

Re: Type 31 Frigate (Inspiration Class) [News Only]

Post by Ron5 »

wargame_insomniac wrote: 23 Jan 2023, 22:47 The fact is that the first batch of 3*T26 were ordered on a non-fixed price contract from BAE, and have ALREADY come in 4.2% over Budget = additional cost of £233m.

My opinion is that that there will be further costs overuns from BAE on the second batch 5*T26. Therefore my opinion / educated guess is that the marginal costs of ordering these 5*T26 Batch 2 will be far in excess of £840m per ship. It is ok if you have a different opinion on that.

The fact is that the 5*T31 were ordered on a fixed price contract with Babcock.
You have to be careful about which £ you are using. And when. Because with inflation and pre-COVID/post COVID differences, they can differ a lot.

For example and simplified, the T31 contract was fixed as you rightly point out, but there are clauses that protect Babcocks from the effects of inflation. So their £1.25 billion contract was in 2019 £. If inflation is 20% until contract is complete, they will get £1.5billion. Not quite right because they get payments in installments but you get the drift.

The other thing is that the T26 contract is much older so inflation & COVID upheavals have had more time and opportunity to interfere.

For my post, you should assume constant 2019 £s.

Ron5
Donator
Posts: 7249
Joined: 05 May 2015, 21:42
United States of America

Re: Type 31 Frigate (Inspiration Class) [News Only]

Post by Ron5 »

Tempest414 wrote: 24 Jan 2023, 09:48 What is the Price of the kit

Mk45 127mm + auto loader ?
Towed Sonar
24 Mk-41 VLS
Mission bay handling system ( but removing this makes the space useless)

Now I do have to agree that slow build rate will effect the cost and until type 31 deploys on its first deployment we will not know the full cost but what we do know so far is

type 26
2015 = 859 million to continue design work towards manufacturing
2017= 3.7 billion to build first 3 ships
2022 = 233 million over run on first 3 ships
2022= 4.2 billion to build 5 ships
Total = 9 billion so far

type 31
total 2 billion so far

My simple guess is if we striped out a type 26 of the list above and fitted said 57mm and 2 x 40mm the new type 26 paper frigate would cost about 650 to 680 million
So the T31 "mission bay" is useless without the very expensive RR crane? Don't be daft - cheaper solutions are available.

I did not provide a complete list of ways the T26GP could be made cheaper. And I said so. Think of expensive communications kit, ECM, sensors, that can be slimmed down or eliminated.

Also read my prior note on different values of £'s.

And you have no idea how much the MoD has spent on the T31's. The 2 billion is a budget that will be spent in installments over time.

Based on Bae CEO's saying he built the first set of 3 for an average of £650 million, your guess says you estimate no savings for the T-26 GP over the first contract which is asinine.

User avatar
Tempest414
Senior Member
Posts: 5550
Joined: 04 Jan 2018, 23:39
France

Re: Type 31 Frigate (Inspiration Class) [News Only]

Post by Tempest414 »

Poiuytrewq wrote: 23 Jan 2023, 19:53
Ron5 wrote: 23 Jan 2023, 18:33
T26 GP-lite
The one that got away!

57mm
2x 40mm
Artisan
24x CAMM
8x NSM
2150

Add Captas 4 compact and additional CAMM via PODs if required

Removing the Mk45 plus auto mag, Mk41 cells, 2087 and the TLAM capability would save a serious amount of cash.

A mixture of these and next-gen OPV’s still is a much better option than a mixture of T26 and T31.

Even if the T26 lites cost £650m a hull, the £4bn T31/T32 budget would still have procured FIVE T26 lites plus five large multipurpose OPVs at £150m a hull.
Or we could just buy EIGHT type 31's and five large multipurpose OPV's at £150m

User avatar
Tempest414
Senior Member
Posts: 5550
Joined: 04 Jan 2018, 23:39
France

Re: Type 31 Frigate (Inspiration Class) [News Only]

Post by Tempest414 »

Ron5 wrote: 24 Jan 2023, 15:47
Tempest414 wrote: 24 Jan 2023, 09:48 What is the Price of the kit

Mk45 127mm + auto loader ?
Towed Sonar
24 Mk-41 VLS
Mission bay handling system ( but removing this makes the space useless)

Now I do have to agree that slow build rate will effect the cost and until type 31 deploys on its first deployment we will not know the full cost but what we do know so far is

type 26
2015 = 859 million to continue design work towards manufacturing
2017= 3.7 billion to build first 3 ships
2022 = 233 million over run on first 3 ships
2022= 4.2 billion to build 5 ships
Total = 9 billion so far

type 31
total 2 billion so far

My simple guess is if we striped out a type 26 of the list above and fitted said 57mm and 2 x 40mm the new type 26 paper frigate would cost about 650 to 680 million
So the T31 "mission bay" is useless without the very expensive RR crane? Don't be daft - cheaper solutions are available.

I did not provide a complete list of ways the T26GP could be made cheaper. And I said so. Think of expensive communications kit, ECM, sensors, that can be slimmed down or eliminated.

Also read my prior note on different values of £'s.

And you have no idea how much the MoD has spent on the T31's. The 2 billion is a budget that will be spent in installments over time.

Based on Bae CEO's saying he built the first set of 3 for an average of £650 million, your guess says you estimate no savings for the T-26 GP over the first contract which is asinine.
First of all pick a price can we can agree on the BAE CEO saying has built the first 3 ship for £650 million is bollocks as his company has not finished the first ship yet and if he has built them for 1.95 billion where has the other 2 billion gone?

The second set of five ships are contracted at 4.2 billion = 850 million per ship so if take the 650 per ship it comes to 3.25 billion leaving 1 billion my question is where is the now 3 billion going GFE or design but if it is design WTF

The second batch are getting hand me down Radars , sonars , Phalanx's , 30mm guns , CAMM kits the list goes on

So if we take it on face value and say BAE have build type 26 for 650 million and Babcocks have built type 31 for 250m and what I am getting from your above post is we could take type 26 strip it of all its kit and fit it with same kit as type 31 and pay 400 million pounds more for it

User avatar
RichardIC
Senior Member
Posts: 1371
Joined: 10 May 2015, 16:59
United Kingdom

Re: Type 31 Frigate (Inspiration Class) [News Only]

Post by RichardIC »

Returning to NEWS:

Rosyth celebrates steel cut on second Type 31 frigate

https://des.mod.uk/type-31-steel-cut/?p ... 146%2C1221

During a ceremony at Rosyth dockyard today, Defence minister Alex Chalk cut steel for HMS Active in the presence of dignitaries including Second Sea Lord and veterans who served on its Type 21 namesake during the Falklands.

The traditional shipbuilding ceremony follows the cut of steel on the first in class vessel HMS Venturer, by Defence Secretary Ben Wallace in September 2021.

Deemed the lead programme of the National Shipbuilding Strategy, the construction of the fleet will support around 1,250 highly-skilled jobs at Babcock and see the creation of an additional 150 apprenticeships. A further 1,250 roles in the UK supply chain are also expected to be supported by the programme.

Additionally, Babcock has created 250 new roles which are targeted at people who are not currently in education, employment, or training. These Production Support Operative (PSO) positions will be recruited in collaboration with Fife Council, Fife College and local employability programmes.

The contract for the frigates was placed by the Type 31 delivery team at DE&S.

Team Leader Helga Kitney said:

“The cutting of steel for HMS Active, the second of the Type 31 Frigates, just 16 months after the first ship, is a testament to the continued delivery of this innovative programme by industry and MOD at an unprecedented pace.

“As well as inspiring a renaissance in shipbuilding in the UK, these modern and highly adaptable frigates will recapitalise the Royal Navy for operations now and in the future, providing the core fleet for global Maritime Security operations.”

Type 31 vessels, which will be able to house a RN helicopter, will benefit from innovative technology and will be fitted with advanced capability including Thales’ combat management system, MBDA’s Sea Ceptor, a supersonic anti-air missile defence system, complimented by a 57mm and two 40mm Bofors naval guns and a 4D radar system.

This will allow this agile frigate fleet to engage in a range of operational roles including Defence engagement, interception and disruption of illegal maritime activity and humanitarian support.

The flexibility of the Type 31 design also allows the frigate to be adapted throughout its lifetime to meet the threats posed by an ever-evolving Defence landscape.

Second Sea Lord Vice Admiral Martin Connell said:

“It is truly a pleasure to be invited today, not only to speak and engage with those involved with HMS Active’s past and future, but to witness the outcomes of this world-class frigate programme that will be at the heart of the Royal Navy for generations to come.”

Known as the Inspiration class, the five Type 31 vessels all take their names from former warships and submarines whose missions and history are intended to inspire Royal Navy operations, as well as a representation of its future vision.

HMS Venturer and Active are now under construction, with the three remaining ships in the Class named HMS Formidable, HMS Bulldog and HMS Campbeltown.

DE&S Director General Ships Vice Admiral Paul Marshall, said:

“The Type 31 programme was the first warship competition for over a decade with DE&S championing a new agile procurement process. This enabled placement of a contract at unparalleled pace, delivering excellent capability to the Royal Navy and value to the taxpayer.

“Steel being cut on HMS Active is the latest milestone in an innovative programme that reflects the ambitions of the National Shipbuilding Strategy, changing the industrial landscape for the better.”
HMS Active will be assembled within the Venturer Hall, a purpose built facility capable of housing two T31 vessels for parallel build and assembly, before being brought out onto the hardstanding for fitting of the Fwd and Aft Masts prior to launch and commissioning.

Babcock’s Chief Executive Officer David Lockwood said:

“The Type 31 programme is a game-changer in the delivery of naval platforms, and we are already witnessing the tangible benefits that the programme will deliver; not just the emergence of a fleet of cutting-edge frigates for the Royal Navy, but also increased employment, new technologies and infrastructure investment. It’s a real honour to share this occasion with Minister for Defence Procurement, Alex Chalk MP, our workforce, our customers and our partners.”
Babcock is contracted to deliver all five T31 frigates to the MOD by the end of 2028.
These users liked the author RichardIC for the post:
Tempest414

User avatar
RichardIC
Senior Member
Posts: 1371
Joined: 10 May 2015, 16:59
United Kingdom

Re: Type 31 Frigate (Inspiration Class) [News Only]

Post by RichardIC »

This is a promotional CGI so it means nothing. But how many CAMM at 1:32?

These users liked the author RichardIC for the post:
Tempest414

tomuk
Senior Member
Posts: 1409
Joined: 20 Dec 2017, 20:24
United Kingdom

Re: Type 31 Frigate (Inspiration Class) [News Only]

Post by tomuk »

Looked like 4 of the newer 6 mushroom launchers to me.
These users liked the author tomuk for the post (total 2):
Ron5Tempest414

Ron5
Donator
Posts: 7249
Joined: 05 May 2015, 21:42
United States of America

Re: Type 31 Frigate (Inspiration Class) [News Only]

Post by Ron5 »

Tempest414 wrote: 24 Jan 2023, 16:39 First of all pick a price can we can agree on the BAE CEO saying has built the first 3 ship for £650 million is bollocks as his company has not finished the first ship yet and if he has built them for 1.95 billion where has the other 2 billion gone?
You are quite right, I'm full of it. Apologies. The actual quote was:
That experience should also help reduce costs. The £3.7bn for the first three works out at £1.3bn in development and design, with each ship costing £800m to build. Lessons learned from each vessel could allow BAE to cut the price per hull by a fifth.
I got 650 million by taking a fifth off 800 million.

So my logic goes: Bae said they "could" build batch 2 for 650 million and by taking out some of the expensive bits out, they "could" build my T26 GP-lite at 550 million.

Pretty sure I said my guess was kinda flaky.

And yes, sorry Richard, this is not news.

Post Reply