Type 31 Frigate (Inspiration Class) [News Only]

Contains threads on Royal Navy equipment of the past, present and future.

What will be the result of the 'Lighter Frigate' programme?

Programme cancelled, RN down to 14 escorts
52
10%
Programme cancelled & replaced with GP T26
14
3%
A number of heavy OPVs spun as "frigates"
127
25%
An LCS-like modular ship
22
4%
A modernised Type 23
24
5%
A Type 26-lite
71
14%
Less than 5 hulls
22
4%
5 hulls
71
14%
More than 5 hulls
103
20%
 
Total votes: 506

Ron5
Donator
Posts: 7245
Joined: 05 May 2015, 21:42
United States of America

Re: Type 31 Frigate (Inspiration Class) [News Only]

Post by Ron5 »

Arguing for arguments sake, the pair of you.

Geo was on his mission to savagely cut defense spending in pursuit of his financially illiterate idea that a balanced budget should be achieved at all costs. He refused to pay for T26GP and commissioned an ex-Babcock's guy to write a shipbuilding "strategy" that said Babcock's should build a much cheaper frigate and all would be super duper wonderful. The T31 budget was set by Geo to be whatever remained of the the Treasury's T26 budget. The number of was set by the number of T23 GP.

Succeeding chancellors, defense ministers, & RN, chose not to rock the boat because based on recent history that would mean, in the best case, more delay for T23 replacements which were already 10 years late and getting later (see HMS Westminster). The only meaningful change to the program was that both Bae and Babcock's said they could not building even the dumbed down T31 at the target contract price. So, rather than having egg on their faces, the Treasury quietly slid expense from the builders to the MoD to solve the issue.

The T31's are a political warship. Toothless and fit only for minor taskings such as flag waving and the occasional embassy rescue. I'm sure the RN will do what it can to add teeth over the years but, of course, that will be an uphill fight against the Treasury.

That's all for me.
These users liked the author Ron5 for the post (total 3):
Poiuytrewqserge750donald_of_tokyo

dmereifield
Senior Member
Posts: 2762
Joined: 03 Aug 2016, 20:29
United Kingdom

Re: Type 31 Frigate (Inspiration Class) [News Only]

Post by dmereifield »

Ron5 wrote: 07 Jun 2023, 14:04 Arguing for arguments sake, the pair of you.

Geo was on his mission to savagely cut defense spending in pursuit of his financially illiterate idea that a balanced budget should be achieved at all costs. He refused to pay for T26GP and commissioned an ex-Babcock's guy to write a shipbuilding "strategy" that said Babcock's should build a much cheaper frigate and all would be super duper wonderful. The T31 budget was set by Geo to be whatever remained of the the Treasury's T26 budget. The number of was set by the number of T23 GP.

Succeeding chancellors, defense ministers, & RN, chose not to rock the boat because based on recent history that would mean, in the best case, more delay for T23 replacements which were already 10 years late and getting later (see HMS Westminster). The only meaningful change to the program was that both Bae and Babcock's said they could not building even the dumbed down T31 at the target contract price. So, rather than having egg on their faces, the Treasury quietly slid expense from the builders to the MoD to solve the issue.

The T31's are a political warship. Toothless and fit only for minor taskings such as flag waving and the occasional embassy rescue. I'm sure the RN will do what it can to add teeth over the years but, of course, that will be an uphill fight against the Treasury.

That's all for me.
If (a big if, from where we currently are), the T31 end up with 8-16 NSM and 16-24 MK41 (not filled with CAMM) and 24 CAMM and a wildcat, are the T31 still toothless? More or less toothless than the Constellation class?
These users liked the author dmereifield for the post:
wargame_insomniac

SD67
Senior Member
Posts: 1036
Joined: 23 Jul 2019, 09:49
United Kingdom

Re: Type 31 Frigate (Inspiration Class) [News Only]

Post by SD67 »

Ron5 wrote: 07 Jun 2023, 14:04

The T31's are a political warship. Toothless and fit only for minor taskings such as flag waving and the occasional embassy rescue. I'm sure the RN will do what it can to add teeth over the years but, of course, that will be an uphill fight against the Treasury.

That's all for me.
Every warship is a political warship, that's the whole kinda "parliamentary democracy" thing. You think T26s are not political - being built 100% in downtown Glasgow to keep the separatists happy when there were arguably better facilities in Portsmouth? Gordon Brown's TOBA wasn't political ? Requiring make-work OPVs to be built at twice the going rate complete with araldite bolt-heads?
I think the Navy have played the politics really well. They could have just dug their heels in like the Army have over Ajax refused to countenance any other option - not sure it would have worked out well.
IMHO T31 are the modern T21 - Global patrol frigates that are built quickly to keep numbers up. If they get NSM and Mk41 they'll pack quite a punch. And they've already succeeded in firing a rocket up BAE, there is quite a reduction in the T26 batch 2 cost.
These users liked the author SD67 for the post (total 3):
Poiuytrewqwargame_insomniacRon5

GarethDavies1
Member
Posts: 86
Joined: 26 May 2021, 11:45
United Kingdom

Re: Type 31 Frigate (Inspiration Class) [News Only]

Post by GarethDavies1 »

Not sure the Type 21 analogy is a good one.

serge750
Senior Member
Posts: 1068
Joined: 30 Apr 2015, 18:34
United Kingdom

Re: Type 31 Frigate (Inspiration Class) [News Only]

Post by serge750 »

By political I read that the T31 happened just to keep the numbers constant at 13 frigates, imo a few lower end frigates like the T31 could be handy for lower end tasks, although initially 12 CAMM is dismal ! 24 minimum, but if they do fit 32 mk 41 then there usefulness will be increased, I would prefer if the RN got a couple more T26 instead of 4 or 5 x more T32/31 in the future though
These users liked the author serge750 for the post (total 3):
wargame_insomniacdonald_of_tokyoRon5

Scimitar54
Senior Member
Posts: 1701
Joined: 13 Jul 2015, 05:10
United Kingdom

Re: Type 31 Frigate (Inspiration Class) [News Only]

Post by Scimitar54 »

I would rather that the RN got (at least) both the 2 or more T26 and 5 or more T31 (with improved sensors & weapons fit).

User avatar
Tempest414
Senior Member
Posts: 5548
Joined: 04 Jan 2018, 23:39
France

Re: Type 31 Frigate (Inspiration Class) [News Only]

Post by Tempest414 »

for me the perfect T-31 would have 1 x 57mm , 2 x 40mm , 24 CAMM , 16 x Mk-41 cells and 16 NSM plus a TAS this would leave room to upgrade if needed to the full 32 Mk-41 cells

8 of these is what is needed along side 8 OPV's fitted with 3D radars 40 or 57mm main guns 4 x 12.7mm HMG's plus the ability to operate POD's. These 16 ships would be the eyes and ears of the fleet around the world

Type 26 is the back bone of the CSG we should have 9 of them to allow 3 with each CSG and 3 for TAPS

SW1
Senior Member
Posts: 5656
Joined: 27 Aug 2018, 19:12
United Kingdom

Re: Type 31 Frigate (Inspiration Class) [News Only]

Post by SW1 »

I’m still somewhat at a loss as to the rationale for theses mk41 silos in the fleet. We have not procured anything cleared in them. Not sure why the camm launchers and canisters for nsm are not sufficient.

Poiuytrewq
Senior Member
Posts: 3952
Joined: 15 Dec 2017, 10:25
United Kingdom

Re: Type 31 Frigate (Inspiration Class) [News Only]

Post by Poiuytrewq »

SW1 wrote: 07 Jun 2023, 22:58 I’m still somewhat at a loss as to the rationale for theses mk41 silos in the fleet. We have not procured anything cleared in them.
Could you not say the same about the T26?
These users liked the author Poiuytrewq for the post:
SW1

tomuk
Senior Member
Posts: 1409
Joined: 20 Dec 2017, 20:24
United Kingdom

Re: Type 31 Frigate (Inspiration Class) [News Only]

Post by tomuk »

Poiuytrewq wrote: 07 Jun 2023, 23:16
SW1 wrote: 07 Jun 2023, 22:58 I’m still somewhat at a loss as to the rationale for theses mk41 silos in the fleet. We have not procured anything cleared in them.
Could you not say the same about the T26?
Indeed you can. Apart from the much talked about FCASW which surely the French would want to be Sylver compatible too what else is there?
These users liked the author tomuk for the post:
SW1

tomuk
Senior Member
Posts: 1409
Joined: 20 Dec 2017, 20:24
United Kingdom

Re: Type 31 Frigate (Inspiration Class) [News Only]

Post by tomuk »

Ron5 wrote: 07 Jun 2023, 14:04 Arguing for arguments sake, the pair of you.

Geo was on his mission to savagely cut defense spending in pursuit of his financially illiterate idea that a balanced budget should be achieved at all costs. He refused to pay for T26GP and commissioned an ex-Babcock's guy to write a shipbuilding "strategy" that said Babcock's should build a much cheaper frigate and all would be super duper wonderful. The T31 budget was set by Geo to be whatever remained of the the Treasury's T26 budget. The number of was set by the number of T23 GP.
I'm sorry but to characterise Sir John Parker as just an ex Babcock's guy is an insult. Yes he was CEO and Chairman of Babcock 15 years before he wrote his report but he is British Shipbuilding through and through. He started out as an apprentice at Harland and Wolf, manager at A&P Sunderland and became both Chairman of British Shipbuilders the nationalised UK shipyard firm and later chairman of Harland and Wolf.

He wasn't the author of the NBS either just an independent report used to inform the strategy which was drawn up by the government later. He definitely didn't suggest the contract should be given to Babcock.

And although they said they agreed with his recommendations the actual NBS and the approach taken with T31 varies to what he recommended. One clear example being the lack of block build (ignoring Poland) of T31
Succeeding chancellors, defense ministers, & RN, chose not to rock the boat because based on recent history that would mean, in the best case, more delay for T23 replacements which were already 10 years late and getting later (see HMS Westminster).
The government could have chosen different paths at numerous times since the 2015 SDSR. They could of scrapped T31 and paid BAE to speed up T26 production, scrapped T31 and bought some overseas frigate I'm sure France or Italy would have been happy to receive some hard cash for the four North African frigates rather than lending the money to Egypt and Morocco to buy them. They could even have reduced or delayed T26 build and poured more money into T31 or heven forbid just increased the RN's budget.
The only meaningful change to the program was that both Bae and Babcock's said they could not building even the dumbed down T31 at the target contract price. So, rather than having egg on their faces, the Treasury quietly slid expense from the builders to the MoD to solve the issue.

The T31's are a political warship. Toothless and fit only for minor taskings such as flag waving and the occasional embassy rescue. I'm sure the RN will do what it can to add teeth over the years but, of course, that will be an uphill fight against the Treasury.

That's all for me.
I just don't recognise that characterisation of the T31 as now chosen based on IH. Is it a T26 or FREMM no but it is an awful lot better base ship than some overinflated River OPV based BAE Avenger or Cutlass.

new guy
Senior Member
Posts: 1183
Joined: 18 Apr 2023, 01:53
United Kingdom

Re: Type 31 Frigate (Inspiration Class) [News Only]

Post by new guy »

tomuk wrote: 08 Jun 2023, 03:38
Poiuytrewq wrote: 07 Jun 2023, 23:16
SW1 wrote: 07 Jun 2023, 22:58 I’m still somewhat at a loss as to the rationale for theses mk41 silos in the fleet. We have not procured anything cleared in them.
Could you not say the same about the T26?
Indeed you can. Apart from the much talked about FCASW which surely the French would want to be Sylver compatible too what else is there?
sylver 70. we have sylver 50.

Repulse
Donator
Posts: 4579
Joined: 05 May 2015, 22:46
United Kingdom

Re: Type 31 Frigate (Inspiration Class) [News Only]

Post by Repulse »

Tempest414 wrote: 07 Jun 2023, 22:00 Type 26 is the back bone of the CSG we should have 9 of them to allow 3 with each CSG and 3 for TAPS
A high availability CSG able to scale to an Expeditionary Strike Group requires all 8 T26s. Add TAPS and one EoS (where there is a proliferation of subs) then that’s 10 minimum. Now ask yourself what stopped that from being a reality.
These users liked the author Repulse for the post:
Ron5
”We have no eternal allies, and we have no perpetual enemies. Our interests are eternal and perpetual, and those interests it is our duty to follow." - Lord Palmerston

SW1
Senior Member
Posts: 5656
Joined: 27 Aug 2018, 19:12
United Kingdom

Re: Type 31 Frigate (Inspiration Class) [News Only]

Post by SW1 »

Poiuytrewq wrote: 07 Jun 2023, 23:16
SW1 wrote: 07 Jun 2023, 22:58 I’m still somewhat at a loss as to the rationale for theses mk41 silos in the fleet. We have not procured anything cleared in them.
Could you not say the same about the T26?
Yes I would include them too.

User avatar
Tempest414
Senior Member
Posts: 5548
Joined: 04 Jan 2018, 23:39
France

Re: Type 31 Frigate (Inspiration Class) [News Only]

Post by Tempest414 »

Repulse wrote: 08 Jun 2023, 07:23
Tempest414 wrote: 07 Jun 2023, 22:00 Type 26 is the back bone of the CSG we should have 9 of them to allow 3 with each CSG and 3 for TAPS
A high availability CSG able to scale to an Expeditionary Strike Group requires all 8 T26s. Add TAPS and one EoS (where there is a proliferation of subs) then that’s 10 minimum. Now ask yourself what stopped that from being a reality.
What stops anything money but in this case it was HMG , HMT , MOD , BAE and the RN why? because they all let Type 26 get out of hand and the simple fact is all 13 would have cost 13+ billion

Maybe had HMG , MOD , BAE and the RN kept a grip on the Program and got on with it we could have had 13 maybe more and been in the running for USN FFGX program but no HMG , MOD dragged they feet and the RN and BAE couldn't stop playing and fucking with the design

The High availability CSG needs 2 x Type 45's , 2 x Type 26 and a SSN to go to a Expeditionary strike group it would need 4 x T45 , 6 x T26 , 2 x T 31 and 2 x SSN

Repulse
Donator
Posts: 4579
Joined: 05 May 2015, 22:46
United Kingdom

Re: Type 31 Frigate (Inspiration Class) [News Only]

Post by Repulse »

Tempest414 wrote: 08 Jun 2023, 08:19 What stops anything money but in this case it was HMG , HMT , MOD , BAE and the RN why? because they all let Type 26 get out of hand and the simple fact is all 13 would have cost 13+ billion

Maybe had HMG , MOD , BAE and the RN kept a grip on the Program and got on with it we could have had 13 maybe more and been in the running for USN FFGX program but no HMG , MOD dragged they feet and the RN and BAE couldn't stop playing and fucking with the design
The RN could have got 10 T26s with the funds available and have money to spare, if the Treasury hadn’t pushed the £250mn frigate. Sure, the RN pitched it, but reality is that it was a bad move, and guess what this £250mn frigate will still end up to be double that. It’s naive beyond belief

The reality is that the unit price for each new T26 is £800mn. The government could have committed to a larger batch and would have got a better price and more ships. It’s only the Chinook capable landing pad that is a luxury and even then it’s marginal.
Tempest414 wrote: 08 Jun 2023, 08:19 The High availability CSG needs 2 x Type 45's , 2 x Type 26 and a SSN to go to a Expeditionary strike group it would need 4 x T45 , 6 x T26 , 2 x T 31 and 2 x SSN
Nope - history and recent events with the T23 show we need 6 to guarantee two are available at short notice. I think 3 is needed minimum for a ESG so it’s 8.
”We have no eternal allies, and we have no perpetual enemies. Our interests are eternal and perpetual, and those interests it is our duty to follow." - Lord Palmerston

Poiuytrewq
Senior Member
Posts: 3952
Joined: 15 Dec 2017, 10:25
United Kingdom

Re: Type 31 Frigate (Inspiration Class) [News Only]

Post by Poiuytrewq »

Tempest414 wrote: 08 Jun 2023, 08:19 …..HMG , MOD dragged they feet and the RN and BAE couldn't stop playing and fucking with the design
The T83 is heading in the same direction.

To grow the Royal Navy every class from now on must be bigger than the preceding class. It’s really simple.

RN does not need cruisers.

Poiuytrewq
Senior Member
Posts: 3952
Joined: 15 Dec 2017, 10:25
United Kingdom

Re: Type 31 Frigate (Inspiration Class) [News Only]

Post by Poiuytrewq »

Repulse wrote: 08 Jun 2023, 08:30 …this £250mn frigate will still end up to be double that. It’s naive beyond belief
The T31 won’t cost £500m

Even around the £400m ballpark with the Mk41s and hopefully some kind of tail they are very good value
It’s only the Chinook capable landing pad that is a luxury and even then it’s marginal.
Why is a Chinook capable flight deck a luxury?

The T31 has that capability also. Is it a luxury on the T31 too or is it just sensible to have the ability to land all of your helicopters on all of your flight decks.
Tempest414 wrote: 08 Jun 2023, 08:19 The High availability CSG needs 2 x Type 45's , 2 x Type 26 and a SSN to go to a Expeditionary strike group it would need 4 x T45 , 6 x T26 , 2 x T 31 and 2 x SSN
This is the perfect opportunity to allow the T26 to revert to its global combat ship roots by procuring a combined AAW/ASW escort specifically to escort the CSG.

If eight T83’s can be procured with a combined AAW/ASW capability then the Royal Navy would have easily the largest and most capable naval fleet in Europe. A big win and all within budget if handled correctly. The lessons of T45 must not be forgotten.

User avatar
Tempest414
Senior Member
Posts: 5548
Joined: 04 Jan 2018, 23:39
France

Re: Type 31 Frigate (Inspiration Class) [News Only]

Post by Tempest414 »

Repulse wrote: 08 Jun 2023, 08:30
Tempest414 wrote: 08 Jun 2023, 08:19 What stops anything money but in this case it was HMG , HMT , MOD , BAE and the RN why? because they all let Type 26 get out of hand and the simple fact is all 13 would have cost 13+ billion

Maybe had HMG , MOD , BAE and the RN kept a grip on the Program and got on with it we could have had 13 maybe more and been in the running for USN FFGX program but no HMG , MOD dragged they feet and the RN and BAE couldn't stop playing and fucking with the design
The RN could have got 10 T26s with the funds available and have money to spare, if the Treasury hadn’t pushed the £250mn frigate. Sure, the RN pitched it, but reality is that it was a bad move, and guess what this £250mn frigate will still end up to be double that. It’s naive beyond belief

The reality is that the unit price for each new T26 is £800mn. The government could have committed to a larger batch and would have got a better price and more ships. It’s only the Chinook capable landing pad that is a luxury and even then it’s marginal.
Tempest414 wrote: 08 Jun 2023, 08:19 The High availability CSG needs 2 x Type 45's , 2 x Type 26 and a SSN to go to a Expeditionary strike group it would need 4 x T45 , 6 x T26 , 2 x T 31 and 2 x SSN
Nope - history and recent events with the T23 show we need 6 to guarantee two are available at short notice. I think 3 is needed minimum for a ESG so it’s 8.
I am sorry but the realty is type 26 unit price is 840 million which will become 900 million as the Batch 2's are getting at least 80 million in second hand parts from type 23's which will be found to be worn out or out of date and new replacements will be needed at a added cost

As for recent events Type 23 is shot and costing millions just to keep them afloat and the only realty is the RN are nursing very worn out ships to replacement

Even if type 31 becomes a 340 or 380 million pound ship it will half the price of type 26 and if it dose become 380 million it will have 8 x NSM 32 Mk-41 cells and a HMS

donald_of_tokyo
Senior Member
Posts: 5545
Joined: 06 May 2015, 13:18
Japan

Re: Type 31 Frigate (Inspiration Class) [News Only]

Post by donald_of_tokyo »

Tempest414 wrote: 08 Jun 2023, 09:16 Even if type 31 becomes a 340 or 380 million pound ship it will half the price of type 26 and if it dose become 380 million it will have 8 x NSM 32 Mk-41 cells and a HMS
You are talking about unit price? Or, program average price? The latter is £400M per unit without any NSM nor Mk.41. The same figure for T26 is £1Bn per unit. I guess you are talking about the former, and I agree it is not a bad number. (but with nothing in the Mk.41 VLS).

SW1
Senior Member
Posts: 5656
Joined: 27 Aug 2018, 19:12
United Kingdom

Re: Type 31 Frigate (Inspiration Class) [News Only]

Post by SW1 »

Or the perfect opportunity to have about around 10 asw/aaw type 26 for the carrier and U.K. nuclear deterrent req and about 10 type 31 for global patrol and escort with a handful of rfa osv for unmanned systems around the U.K.

And spend he rest on submarines.

User avatar
Tempest414
Senior Member
Posts: 5548
Joined: 04 Jan 2018, 23:39
France

Re: Type 31 Frigate (Inspiration Class) [News Only]

Post by Tempest414 »

donald_of_tokyo wrote: 08 Jun 2023, 14:25
Tempest414 wrote: 08 Jun 2023, 09:16 Even if type 31 becomes a 340 or 380 million pound ship it will half the price of type 26 and if it dose become 380 million it will have 8 x NSM 32 Mk-41 cells and a HMS
You are talking about unit price? Or, program average price? The latter is £400M per unit without any NSM nor Mk.41. The same figure for T26 is £1Bn per unit. I guess you are talking about the former, and I agree it is not a bad number. (but with nothing in the Mk.41 VLS).
Right lets clear this up if we add the MK-41's , NSM and a HMS to type 31 we are looking at adding a bout 100 million per ship which will make there unit price 370 million and there program average 500 million

what we know right now is type 26 Batch 2 unit price is 840 million which include second hand parts from type 23's however the program average price is 1.122 each as it stands today this comes from contracts sign starting in 2015 which included long lead parts for the first ships

859 million + 3.7 billion + 220 million + 4.2 billion = 8.979 billion =1.122 billion

Also to drop in but with nothing in the Mk-41 VLS goes for both type 31 and type 26 so there for dose not affect the unit price of ether ship

tomuk
Senior Member
Posts: 1409
Joined: 20 Dec 2017, 20:24
United Kingdom

Re: Type 31 Frigate (Inspiration Class) [News Only]

Post by tomuk »

new guy wrote: 08 Jun 2023, 06:57
tomuk wrote: 08 Jun 2023, 03:38
Poiuytrewq wrote: 07 Jun 2023, 23:16
SW1 wrote: 07 Jun 2023, 22:58 I’m still somewhat at a loss as to the rationale for theses mk41 silos in the fleet. We have not procured anything cleared in them.
Could you not say the same about the T26?
Indeed you can. Apart from the much talked about FCASW which surely the French would want to be Sylver compatible too what else is there?
sylver 70. we have sylver 50.
Of all the ships that have Sylver only the six ASW French FREMMs have 2x8 A70 each. Their Horizons and other FREMMS, FDI and all other Navy's Sylver equipped vessels only have A50 max.

tomuk
Senior Member
Posts: 1409
Joined: 20 Dec 2017, 20:24
United Kingdom

Re: Type 31 Frigate (Inspiration Class) [News Only]

Post by tomuk »

Repulse wrote: 08 Jun 2023, 08:30 The RN could have got 10 T26s with the funds available and have money to spare, if the Treasury hadn’t pushed the £250mn frigate. Sure, the RN pitched it, but reality is that it was a bad move, and guess what this £250mn frigate will still end up to be double that. It’s naive beyond belief

The reality is that the unit price for each new T26 is £800mn. The government could have committed to a larger batch and would have got a better price and more ships. It’s only the Chinook capable landing pad that is a luxury and even then it’s marginal.
No they couldn't and the price of T26 isn't £800m

donald_of_tokyo
Senior Member
Posts: 5545
Joined: 06 May 2015, 13:18
Japan

Re: Type 31 Frigate (Inspiration Class) [News Only]

Post by donald_of_tokyo »

Tempest414 wrote: 08 Jun 2023, 15:33Also to drop in but with nothing in the Mk-41 VLS goes for both type 31 and type 26 so there for dose not affect the unit price of ether ship
No objection. I think people tend to think things are easy with T31 and difficult with T26, or vice versa. No, both types cost "so-so", and both have a capability roughly proportional to their cost.

Modern escort is NOT cheap.

And, anyway, uparming and/or adding one or two hulls of T26 and T31, individually, will be much more cost efficient now than hoping any T32. It is dictated by man-power limit.
These users liked the author donald_of_tokyo for the post:
wargame_insomniac

Post Reply