Type 31 Frigate (Inspiration Class) [News Only]

Contains threads on Royal Navy equipment of the past, present and future.

What will be the result of the 'Lighter Frigate' programme?

Programme cancelled, RN down to 14 escorts
52
10%
Programme cancelled & replaced with GP T26
14
3%
A number of heavy OPVs spun as "frigates"
127
25%
An LCS-like modular ship
22
4%
A modernised Type 23
24
5%
A Type 26-lite
71
14%
Less than 5 hulls
22
4%
5 hulls
71
14%
More than 5 hulls
103
20%
 
Total votes: 506

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ArmChairCivvy
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Re: Type 31 Frigate (Inspiration Class) [News Only]

Post by ArmChairCivvy »

Poiuytrewq wrote: 05 Mar 2022, 08:56 We need more “ACTION THIS DAY”.

The UK maritime defence strategy is heading the right direction but we just need more of everything. More T26, SSN, P8, Merlin, Wildcat, F35 and the Amphibious force needs to be replaced with a credible and updated version
Yes, and T26, P8 , Merlin (fuselages churned out in Poland, keep our factory busy doing them up) doable.
... can't do much about T31, as the first one is just abt to be started (on)

Outside the head line, but as mentioned above:
- was [the RM] going to be [?] merged into the Army, as per the budgetary pressures. An Instant solution:
1. take the heavy weapons off and put 'them' back to sea... LRGs. A good idea
2. Make the rest even more credible than before: a Land Deterrent Element, fired by the Navy (Google search will give more 'context'... at least from the past[emoji])
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wargame_insomniac
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Re: Type 31 Frigate (Inspiration Class) [News Only]

Post by wargame_insomniac »

100% agree that T31 needs a full and frank rethink from MOD for what weapon systems now needed. Surely it would be easier to make any changes now whilst it is being built than as a subsequent refit!!

On Poland choosing the T31 design, even if the actual building work and some of the supply chain is in Poland, it is still pa good thing for UK Warship design and construction. For years we have seen the French, Italian, Spanish and German shipyards gaining export sale after sale. UK sales have been limited and often limited to selling older warships due to Navy Budget cuts.

Now when we next try to make future sales we can point to Canada, Australia, Poland and Indonesia (am not sure for obvious reasons whether Ukraine deal will happen) having bought UK designs.

Hopefully BAE and Babcock will now have more success bidding against Naval, Fincanteri, Navantia and MEKO.....

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Re: Type 31 Frigate (Inspiration Class) [News Only]

Post by donald_of_tokyo »

Poiuytrewq wrote: 05 Mar 2022, 08:05
donald_of_tokyo wrote: 05 Mar 2022, 05:54 Almost all of the work force established at Rosyth needs next order, and it must continue until late 2050s. Not only T32, but also SSS and MRSS will be of very important for Rosyth.
The drumbeat is very important but Rosyth will simply not be able to build 10 T31/T32 plus 3 FSS and 6 MRSS in the next 15 years.
Not sure. Problem is, Rosyth needs something to build AFTER them (from 2040-), until T31 replacement (from 2050-, I guess).

In addition, if Belfast not Rosyth gets MRSS, then, what will they build after that? Zero. As such, UK must focus on Clyde, Barrow and Rosyth to establish sustainable ship building industries. Still there are Cammel Laird (not sure how Appledore and ex-H&W can come in).

Why not build some blocks for SSS and MRSS in Cammel Laird, Clyde and Barrow?
Why not use some Bays for 40 years, until 2040s, to flatten the surge of build?
We are now entering a new era of increased defence spending across Europe and beyond. Many nations will want to increase escort numbers and with a potential Tier1 adversary the capability of such vessels will now need to be compatible with peer on peer conflict. This will raise costs and slow down manufacturing time scales.
Yes, that means UK needs more T26. Clyde can handle 2-3 more hulls for sure. With learning curve, they will have redundant workforces in late 2020s. Also, as we see how Babcock is establishing Rosyth, Clyde can ALSO easily increase their workforce if they have 3-5 years (increasing the existing man-power resource is much easier than establishing new one from zero).

In short, I think enlarging Clyde and Rosyth will benefit a lot. And, both yards must have "sustainable future plan" so that they can increase their workforce with confidence.
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Re: Type 31 Frigate (Inspiration Class) [News Only]

Post by wargame_insomniac »

Its why I like the USN 50 year shipbuilding plan. Its a drumbeat but it is a focussed drumbeat so we don't end up with BAE building River B2's just to keep staff working and avoid the problems that Barrow had with the gap before building Astute Class.

So the USN 50 year plan could be to build 2 destroyers every year, 1 LPD every year, 1 LHD / LHA every two years, 1 CvN every 4 years etc But also including all submarines and support ships too.

That gives them a rough plan of what they need to order at various points to keep the USN ship numbers stable. Then obviously USN is free to request additional ships in each annual Budget or even Congress to approve MORE ships than the USN requested!! I can't see that happening in UK!!

So it helps advance planning, the various shipbuilders can plan ahead their staff retention and especially staff recruitment.

It would be great if MOD could start thinking along those lines. If ships had a roughly 25 year life and we intend to rebuild RN Escort numbers back up to 24 (currently 6*T45, 8*T26, 10*T31/T32) then it shouldn't take a rocket scientist to work out we need an escort built each and every year, even if ordered in multi year batches.

Similarly for Barrow if we want 4*SSBN & e.g. 8*SSN, we need one launched on average every two years.

If we can ensure that Clyde, Rosyth and Barrow have such a shipbuilding plan, then maybe Belfast can build some of the support ships or at least some modules, whilst Appledore can concentrate on smaller ships (e.g. psyrol boats smaller than River class but bigger than Dasher class).
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Re: Type 31 Frigate (Inspiration Class) [News Only]

Post by Jdam »

Due to recent events I've heard people asking for the MK41 and sonar to added to the Type 31. At what point does it make more sense to carry on with the Type 26 instead?
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Re: Type 31 Frigate (Inspiration Class) [News Only]

Post by SD67 »

donald_of_tokyo wrote: 05 Mar 2022, 05:54 Agree. My point is, for Babcock, Thales UK, and MBDA UK, this Polish selection as "a preferred bidder" is very good. But for Rosyth, we need something to build there and such export campaign is much more needed.

Almost all of the work force established at Rosyth needs next order, and it must continue until late 2050s. Not only T32, but also SSS and MRSS will be of very important for Rosyth.

....

So, UK must approach to NZ as much as possible. But, it will be for only 2 or 3 hulls (or none).

Other nations?
IMHO in a perfect world that "other nation" should have been Ukraine. A couple of uparmed T31s added to the end of the RN's run, partly covered by a long term soft loan. A couple of well armed frigates and a dozen FACs could have evened up the Black Sea balance of power somewhat.

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Re: Type 31 Frigate (Inspiration Class) [News Only]

Post by SD67 »

donald_of_tokyo wrote: 05 Mar 2022, 13:03
Poiuytrewq wrote: 05 Mar 2022, 08:05
donald_of_tokyo wrote: 05 Mar 2022, 05:54 Almost all of the work force established at Rosyth needs next order, and it must continue until late 2050s. Not only T32, but also SSS and MRSS will be of very important for Rosyth.
The drumbeat is very important but Rosyth will simply not be able to build 10 T31/T32 plus 3 FSS and 6 MRSS in the next 15 years.
Not sure. Problem is, Rosyth needs something to build AFTER them (from 2040-), until T31 replacement (from 2050-, I guess).

In addition, if Belfast not Rosyth gets MRSS, then, what will they build after that? Zero. As such, UK must focus on Clyde, Barrow and Rosyth to establish sustainable ship building industries. Still there are Cammel Laird (not sure how Appledore and ex-H&W can come in).

Why not build some blocks for SSS and MRSS in Cammel Laird, Clyde and Barrow?
Why not use some Bays for 40 years, until 2040s, to flatten the surge of build?
We are now entering a new era of increased defence spending across Europe and beyond. Many nations will want to increase escort numbers and with a potential Tier1 adversary the capability of such vessels will now need to be compatible with peer on peer conflict. This will raise costs and slow down manufacturing time scales.
Yes, that means UK needs more T26. Clyde can handle 2-3 more hulls for sure. With learning curve, they will have redundant workforces in late 2020s. Also, as we see how Babcock is establishing Rosyth, Clyde can ALSO easily increase their workforce if they have 3-5 years (increasing the existing man-power resource is much easier than establishing new one from zero).

In short, I think enlarging Clyde and Rosyth will benefit a lot. And, both yards must have "sustainable future plan" so that they can increase their workforce with confidence.
The problem is building RFAs in 2040 doesn't necessarily keep frigate building skills alive. Different products different skills.

There's an easy solution to this conundrum - have ONE frigate factory, owned by the MOD and whoever has the contract at a period of time leases all or part of it. Australia does it in Adelaide, it's a proven model. Navantia are shipping out BAE are shipping in but it's much the same workforce.

IMHO that factory cannot be in the Clyde - too cramped and too gentrified. East Scotland or Merseyside.

But Babcocks will find a way of keeping Rosyth busy they have many strings to their bow

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Re: Type 31 Frigate (Inspiration Class) [News Only]

Post by wargame_insomniac »

Jdam wrote: 05 Mar 2022, 13:52 Due to recent events I've heard people asking for the MK41 and sonar to added to the Type 31. At what point does it make more sense to carry on with the Type 26 instead?
Does the RN need quantity or quality or some compromise between them?

RN has already ordered 5*T31 from Babcock and currently ordered 3*T26 from BAE - we expect the remaining 5*T26 to be ordered in the next few months (as some long lead component parts have been ordered recently).

So it is not a question of T31 or carrying on with T26. It might be a question of ordering the future 5*T32 or a couple more T26, but as yet that is future Budget increase as the T32 have been announced but not budgeted for.

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Re: Type 31 Frigate (Inspiration Class) [News Only]

Post by ArmChairCivvy »

SD67 wrote: 05 Mar 2022, 14:31 There's an easy solution to this conundrum - have ONE frigate factory, owned by the MOD and whoever has the contract at a period of time leases all or part of it. Australia does it in Adelaide, it's a proven model. Navantia are shipping out BAE are shipping in but it's much the same workforce.
Uuhh... haven't heard this one before :lol: :D
... though the variation of it is to have one fitting out yard that gets the hulls coming in, fitted with propulsion and basic navigation systems. Which is much more than the AW ships that Australia got from Navantia... being towed across the 7 (emoji here) seas, for the next steps
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Re: Type 31 Frigate (Inspiration Class) [News Only]

Post by Repulse »

wargame_insomniac wrote: 05 Mar 2022, 14:33 Does the RN need quantity or quality or some compromise between them?
It needs both - a large number of low level ships for forward presence / surveillance, global constabulary roles, survey and training. And a tier one fighting core with as many ships/capabilities as can be afforded.
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Re: Type 31 Frigate (Inspiration Class) [News Only]

Post by SW1 »

A major war in Central Europe with hundreds of thousands of troops and hardly a ship in sight and the answer is more ships, need a pint of whatever is being consumed here.

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Re: Type 31 Frigate (Inspiration Class) [News Only]

Post by Jake1992 »

SW1 wrote: 05 Mar 2022, 17:43 A major war in Central Europe with hundreds of thousands of troops and hardly a ship in sight and the answer is more ships, need a pint of whatever is being consumed here.
It’s more the fact that at branches of the forces have been cut to below what’s really required, the Ukrainian war is just the catalyse that shows this and a indicator that the world in general has become more dangours.

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Re: Type 31 Frigate (Inspiration Class) [News Only]

Post by wargame_insomniac »

Repulse wrote: 05 Mar 2022, 15:58
wargame_insomniac wrote: 05 Mar 2022, 14:33 Does the RN need quantity or quality or some compromise between them?
It needs both - a large number of low level ships for forward presence / surveillance, global constabulary roles, survey and training. And a tier one fighting core with as many ships/capabilities as can be afforded.
That was what I was trying to do say but you phrased it better than I did.

I don't see anyone criticising the four remaining T23 GP frigates. For example HMS Montrose is doing invaluable work as our contribution to Project Kipion leaving the T23 ASW frigates to do other needed tasks such as patrolling the North Atlantic and the High North.

So to me it is not a question of T26 OR T31. We need BOTH!! We need the 8*T26 to replace the 8*T23 ASW and we need the 5*T31 to replace the current 4*T23 GP (obviously previously 5 ships before HMS Monmouth retired early).

So the only qustion in my mind is that, assuming we have just £2bn available, are we better off ordering 5*T32 or maybe 2-3 T26 (which we will know more about T26 unit price once the orders are placed for the final 5*T26 ships).

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Re: Type 31 Frigate (Inspiration Class) [News Only]

Post by wargame_insomniac »

SW1 wrote: 05 Mar 2022, 17:43 A major war in Central Europe with hundreds of thousands of troops and hardly a ship in sight and the answer is more ships, need a pint of whatever is being consumed here.
To be fair it is the escort thread within the Royal Navy section, and I know I was trying to keep any comments focussed on RN escorts. Certainly in General UK thread I have spoken about the single most urgent thing the MOD could do is to cancel / postpone any current capaibility cuts, in particular to keep full number of Challenger Tanks rather than cutting them to 150. But that was nt relevant to escort thread.

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Re: Type 31 Frigate (Inspiration Class) [News Only]

Post by SD67 »

ArmChairCivvy wrote: 05 Mar 2022, 15:14
SD67 wrote: 05 Mar 2022, 14:31 There's an easy solution to this conundrum - have ONE frigate factory, owned by the MOD and whoever has the contract at a period of time leases all or part of it. Australia does it in Adelaide, it's a proven model. Navantia are shipping out BAE are shipping in but it's much the same workforce.
Uuhh... haven't heard this one before :lol: :D
... though the variation of it is to have one fitting out yard that gets the hulls coming in, fitted with propulsion and basic navigation systems. Which is much more than the AW ships that Australia got from Navantia... being towed across the 7 (emoji here) seas, for the next steps
Haha well we all have our Hobby horses. Donald’s point is good though - Rosyth gets up to speed then everything suddenly stops that’d be very MOD.

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Re: Type 31 Frigate (Inspiration Class) [News Only]

Post by SW1 »

It’s only a guess but short term the real
change will likely be around a need to maintain forces on the eastern nato border this would like see changes around readiness and spares and possibly UORs and have little to do with ships.

Infact unless there much movement around the fabled nato 2% I doubt there there will be much change as according to government we already spend more than 2%

You may need to wait until the next defence review for material change and even then I doubt ships are far up the agenda as you have vehicles deploying into Estonia that entered service in 1963.

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Re: Type 31 Frigate (Inspiration Class) [News Only]

Post by Jake1992 »

SW1 wrote: 05 Mar 2022, 19:31 It’s only a guess but short term the real
change will likely be around a need to maintain forces on the eastern nato border this would like see changes around readiness and spares and possibly UORs and have little to do with ships.

Infact unless there much movement around the fabled nato 2% I doubt there there will be much change as according to government we already spend more than 2%

You may need to wait until the next defence review for material change and even then I doubt ships are far up the agenda as you have vehicles deploying into Estonia that entered service in 1963.
I’d be very shocked and disappointed if there wasn’t when you look at the fact that France has increase defence spending, Germany has added £80bn this year alone and Poland has increase to 3%

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Re: Type 31 Frigate (Inspiration Class) [News Only]

Post by SW1 »

Jake1992 wrote: 05 Mar 2022, 19:55
SW1 wrote: 05 Mar 2022, 19:31 It’s only a guess but short term the real
change will likely be around a need to maintain forces on the eastern nato border this would like see changes around readiness and spares and possibly UORs and have little to do with ships.

Infact unless there much movement around the fabled nato 2% I doubt there there will be much change as according to government we already spend more than 2%

You may need to wait until the next defence review for material change and even then I doubt ships are far up the agenda as you have vehicles deploying into Estonia that entered service in 1963.
I’d be very shocked and disappointed if there wasn’t when you look at the fact that France has increase defence spending, Germany has added £80bn this year alone and Poland has increase to 3%
Which brings France and Germany up to just over 2% (Germany was at 1.4%). Which is about where we are

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Re: Type 31 Frigate (Inspiration Class) [News Only]

Post by Jake1992 »

SW1 wrote: 05 Mar 2022, 19:59
Jake1992 wrote: 05 Mar 2022, 19:55
SW1 wrote: 05 Mar 2022, 19:31 It’s only a guess but short term the real
change will likely be around a need to maintain forces on the eastern nato border this would like see changes around readiness and spares and possibly UORs and have little to do with ships.

Infact unless there much movement around the fabled nato 2% I doubt there there will be much change as according to government we already spend more than 2%

You may need to wait until the next defence review for material change and even then I doubt ships are far up the agenda as you have vehicles deploying into Estonia that entered service in 1963.
I’d be very shocked and disappointed if there wasn’t when you look at the fact that France has increase defence spending, Germany has added £80bn this year alone and Poland has increase to 3%
Which brings France and Germany up to just over 2% (Germany was at 1.4%). Which is about where we are
Still wouldnt look good to see other major European nations increasing defence spending while we stay the same at best or even continue with cuts.

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Re: Type 31 Frigate (Inspiration Class) [News Only]

Post by dmereifield »

At the very least we can expect an extra tranche of funding announced (ca. £20 billion) over the next 4-5 years...but I'd be hoping for something more significant, for example:

- Removal of nuclear deterrent from the MoD budget, meaning the MoD gets the full 2% for other commitments

- Increased MoD budget to 2.25% (I'd like 2.5% but don't think it likely)

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Re: Type 31 Frigate (Inspiration Class) [News Only]

Post by SW1 »

dmereifield wrote: 05 Mar 2022, 20:57 At the very least we can expect an extra tranche of funding announced (ca. £20 billion) over the next 4-5 years...but I'd be hoping for something more significant, for example:

- Removal of nuclear deterrent from the MoD budget, meaning the MoD gets the full 2% for other commitments

- Increased MoD budget to 2.25% (I'd like 2.5% but don't think it likely)
Well anyone can manipulate a budget to satisfy a gdp number, if you go with the latest budget https://www.gov.uk/government/publicati ... -2021-html

Defence is at about 2.6% of gdp they will say they were ahead of the curve by investing more last year……

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Re: Type 31 Frigate (Inspiration Class) [News Only]

Post by Jake1992 »

SW1 wrote: 05 Mar 2022, 21:05
dmereifield wrote: 05 Mar 2022, 20:57 At the very least we can expect an extra tranche of funding announced (ca. £20 billion) over the next 4-5 years...but I'd be hoping for something more significant, for example:

- Removal of nuclear deterrent from the MoD budget, meaning the MoD gets the full 2% for other commitments

- Increased MoD budget to 2.25% (I'd like 2.5% but don't think it likely)
Well anyone can manipulate a budget to satisfy a gdp number, if you go with the latest budget https://www.gov.uk/government/publicati ... -2021-html

Defence is at about 2.6% of gdp they will say they were ahead of the curve by investing more last year……
I think if they tried that line in the media as a way of justifying no increase they’d be torn apart, you can see it now -

“how can you say we’re spending more Mr Pm while cuts are plans across the board”

“Is it really enough to say we were spending more before this crisis and do nothing while everyone else stepping up and we’re not”

“How can we afford an MP pay rise and right of billions in covid fraud but not increase defence to avoid more cuts”

It’d be a easy way for the media to bash Boris and the Tories and look very much like we’re all talk while our Allie ( competitors ) all take significant action

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Re: Type 31 Frigate (Inspiration Class) [News Only]

Post by dmereifield »

Yup, I don't think spin will cut it this time. Even the media, think tankers and some Labour MPs (who normally don't give a crap about defence) are/will be calling for an uplift. Not to mention the Tory back benchers. A £20 billion "windfall" is the minimum they'll accept. Boris also won't want to be seen to be outdone by the continental powers, he'll want to maintain the UK's place as European Nato top dog (though we won't match German spending in absolute terms). Sunak will have to find the money from somewhere

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Re: Type 31 Frigate (Inspiration Class) [News Only]

Post by wargame_insomniac »

Agree with above comments but is this the best thread to articulate them?

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Re: Type 31 Frigate (Inspiration Class) [News Only]

Post by dmereifield »

No, apologies. To bring it back on track slightly...the T31's will be more spikey. We'll see at least24 CAMM and some ASM's. Question is when, in build or shortly after...

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