Type 31 Frigate (Inspiration Class) [News Only]

Contains threads on Royal Navy equipment of the past, present and future.

What will be the result of the 'Lighter Frigate' programme?

Programme cancelled, RN down to 14 escorts
52
10%
Programme cancelled & replaced with GP T26
14
3%
A number of heavy OPVs spun as "frigates"
127
25%
An LCS-like modular ship
22
4%
A modernised Type 23
24
5%
A Type 26-lite
71
14%
Less than 5 hulls
22
4%
5 hulls
71
14%
More than 5 hulls
103
20%
 
Total votes: 506

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Tempest414
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Re: Type 31 Frigate (Inspiration Class) [News Only]

Post by Tempest414 »

The old what happens when the next missile comes along can be levelled at very ship that sails the seas

Any way type 31 be OK and will deploy over seas with 24 CAMM and 8 NSM

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Re: Type 31 Frigate (Inspiration Class) [News Only]

Post by wargame_insomniac »

Ron5 wrote: 21 Jan 2023, 15:55 An alternative view from Harry Lye. Once again, read the entire thread.

From that same thread on twitter;


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Re: Type 31 Frigate (Inspiration Class) [News Only]

Post by pko100 »

Ron5 wrote: 21 Jan 2023, 15:00
pko100 wrote: 20 Jan 2023, 23:45 There is a planned programme for each ship to have capability inserted after they are accepted off contract. That will be mte plus any equipment rotated off decommissioned Type 23s. Increasing CAMM load to 24 does not materially increase the cost of the ship.

I think the thought of 32 mk 41 and nsm being fitted any time soon is very unlikely. In the late 20s, the navy will be funding SV-CAMM and Sea Viper SVE as well as trying to find headroom for type 32. FC?/ASW will also be costing a lot in that time frame and if nsm is fitted to other platforms, I expect it will go to the Type 26s.

Following on from the Ukraine war, if any additional money is found for defence, I expect the lions share will go to the army to close the existing horrendous capability gaps in artillery, gbad, ifvs and ammunition holdings etc.
An interesting comment that prompted a couple of thoughts.

Firstly, if additional CAMM cells are so cheap, why wasn't the base contract specified with 24, 36 or 48 cells?

Secondly, obviously, the MoD is going to be very short of money, inflation will continue, and the army will have its wishlist raised in priority. So what will save the plan to upgrade the T31's before service entry? Hard to see Wallace putting the cost of fitting extra missiles etc on a patrol frigate ahead of new artillery/missiles/tanks/Boxers for the army.

That's even assuming the T31's will come in on budget.
Both sides have never said the number of CAMM to be fitted has been agreed. The data link and missile controllers fitted will certainly support more than 12 missiles.

I think the Navy have been caught in a difficult place over perceived value for money viz 1 Type 26 = 3 to 4 Type 31s, so have been keen not to over sell the capabilities offered by the Type 31 to protect the order of the final 5 type 26s. From previous experience, it was difficult to argue the case for Astute if the navy thought the U class offered an acceptable level of capability, hence the Us were quickly sold to Canada (in exchange for use of Canadian land for the Army exercise ranges).

Now that has been confirmed, the Navy have more scope to up arm the type 31 but I think the general state of the economy and the lessons that need to be learnt from Ukraine will seriously limit the Navy getting any additional funding in the next few years.

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Re: Type 31 Frigate (Inspiration Class) [News Only]

Post by Poiuytrewq »

JohnM wrote: 21 Jan 2023, 20:52 Where did you guys get the 16xNSM from? They’ll be lucky to get 8xNSM hand-me-downs from the T23 as they retire…
Simply that the original design that the T31 is derived from included up to 16x Harpoon in canisters.
D4C6A3BB-6BCA-4C05-A639-5FCBF926371B.jpeg
Clearly the space that is available is generous and possibly more than 16x NSM could be added if required in a conflict scenario.

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Re: Type 31 Frigate (Inspiration Class) [News Only]

Post by donald_of_tokyo »

Repulse wrote: 21 Jan 2023, 18:53
donald_of_tokyo wrote: 21 Jan 2023, 16:17 No problem, T31 has a 57mm gun which can fire 3P ammo and even guided ammo, 2x 40mm gun with 3P ammo. It also has a state of the art ESM/ECM and decoy launcher :D
You’d need to let them get damn close to make any of that have a hope in hell to hit / deflect anything…

If they are that crap, best use them close to home under a layered defence.
There are several threats on which these (new generation) guns can handle better than AA-missile.

1: cheap and numerous "suicide drones"
2: fast-boat swarm, especially in "the first day" when it is still gray and ORE is strict, and RAF's Typhoon fighters cannot use Brimstone in number.

Especially for item-1, French FREMM can handle only up to 16 with its Aster-15, and has only one 76 mm gun (and 20mm guns), while T31 has one 57mm and two 40mm guns, which is better I think.

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Re: Type 31 Frigate (Inspiration Class) [News Only]

Post by NickC »

donald_of_tokyo wrote: 22 Jan 2023, 02:17
Repulse wrote: 21 Jan 2023, 18:53
donald_of_tokyo wrote: 21 Jan 2023, 16:17 No problem, T31 has a 57mm gun which can fire 3P ammo and even guided ammo, 2x 40mm gun with 3P ammo. It also has a state of the art ESM/ECM and decoy launcher :D
You’d need to let them get damn close to make any of that have a hope in hell to hit / deflect anything…

If they are that crap, best use them close to home under a layered defence.
There are several threats on which these (new generation) guns can handle better than AA-missile.

1: cheap and numerous "suicide drones"
2: fast-boat swarm, especially in "the first day" when it is still gray and ORE is strict, and RAF's Typhoon fighters cannot use Brimstone in number.

Especially for item-1, French FREMM can handle only up to 16 with its Aster-15, and has only one 76 mm gun (and 20mm guns), while T31 has one 57mm and two 40mm guns, which is better I think.
The US Navy trials with the 57mm guns firing the 3P Mk295 rounds on their LCS ships against small craft in the swarm scenario were said to be ineffective, the problem with the gun was the lightweight 3P airburst munition for the gun, it generated a lot of shrapnel (seen quoted as 8,0000 light fragments) which can kill unprotected crew but had little actual stopping power on a boat.

BAE in response to the shortcoming of the 3P round in that role developed a new guided munition intended specifically for the small boat, anti-swarm scenario, the Ordnance for Rapid Kill of Attack Craft, ORKA

US Navy held a competition for a new projectile specifically for the small boat, anti-swarm scenario, the BAE ORKA lost out to the L3Harris ALaMO smart projectile

Possible scenario - to be remembered the 57 mm fires only a small lightweight round 13-14 lbs vs 46 lbs of the 4.5" so max effective range is limited ~10 km / 5.4 nm, less than halfway to horizon and the IRGC fleet said to more than 1,000 small craft and say if fitted the 10 km Kornett -EM or equivalent, so debateable if the T31 armed with single 57 mm could fight off swarm attack by 40-50 craft if operating on its own? Will the RN procure the ALaMO.
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Re: Type 31 Frigate (Inspiration Class) [News Only]

Post by Tempest414 »

Lets not forget that type 31 will also be carrying a Wildcat with 20 LMM

But we do know is the RN has placed a contract for 57 & 40mm 3P rounds for T31

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Re: Type 31 Frigate (Inspiration Class) [News Only]

Post by Caribbean »

    NickC wrote: 22 Jan 2023, 11:01The US Navy trials with the 57mm guns firing the 3P Mk295 rounds on their LCS ships against small craft in the swarm scenario were said to be ineffective
    Well, having seen video of the P3 against small craft, all I can say is that I would not like to be on a "small craft" with one of those firing at me. To render one inoperative, killing the crew would seem pretty effective.

    As for your scenario

    Range of BAE 57mm is given as 16.6km (9nm)
    Effective range - unguided ammunition (assuming 2/3rds of max range) - 11km
    Range of P3 ammunition - > 16.6km (>9nm)
    Horizon at 20m (example radar height) 16km
    Horizon at 2.5 m (crew standing on deck of small craft) - 5.6km

    So, the T-31 will see them 10km before they can see the T-31.
    • At a minimum, it can target the small boat at 11km range (16 with P3). In any sea state where small craft can be used, it will be completely stable.
      The small boat will see the T-31 at 5.6km range. At 50knots, they will have a faceful of spray and be unable to stand upright.
      The small boat will take 6 to 7 minutes to close the gap at 50 knots (much slower if it's anything other than a flat calm), before it can see the T-31. The T-31 could fire an entire magazine of 1000 rounds in that time, if it chooses to.
      The small boat would likely have to close to < 1km and slow almost to walking pace to have any chance of a hit with a shoulder-launched ATGM.
    The T-31 also has two 40mm guns, which could start to engage inside 10-11km and engage effectively with conventional ammunition as they breach the horizon. It also has 50 cal and miniguns that could engage within 1km. US tests showed that a 50 cal could stop a fast boat at 50knot in around 45 seconds.
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    Re: Type 31 Frigate (Inspiration Class) [News Only]

    Post by NickC »

    A correction to my above post re the 57mm Mk 3 and its 3P projectile, Navy Lookout quotes 2,400 tungsten pellets with 450 gram PBX charge which looks more realistic, 5 grams each? in a well researched article on the 57 mm.

    https://www.navylookout.com/in-focus-th ... -frigates/
    Tempest414 wrote: 22 Jan 2023, 11:36
    Lets not forget that type 31 will also be carrying a Wildcat with 20 LMM

    But we do know is the RN has placed a contract for 57 & 40mm 3P rounds for T31
    We have seen in Ukraine how vulnerable helos are to MANPADS, Stingers/Strela 3/Starstreak etc, would not expect any problem for MANPADS to carried on the Islamic Revolutionary Guard Corps small boats. How much a threat would they pose to a Wildcat?

    What we do know from USN trials is that the 3P is not an effective projectile in the small boat, anti-swarm scenario, why the ORKA and ALaMO projectiles were developed.

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    Re: Type 31 Frigate (Inspiration Class) [News Only]

    Post by Caribbean »

    NickC wrote: 22 Jan 2023, 13:03 A correction to my above post re the 57mm Mk 3 and its 3P projectile, Navy Lookout quotes 2,400 tungsten pellets with 450 gram PBX charge which looks more realistic, 5 grams each?
    The confusion seems to be down to the BAE sales brochure
    Lethality – The projectile section
    delivers over 8,000 pre-formed
    tungsten fragments in reaction to 420
    grams of PBX-explosive. With a range
    of greater than nine nautical miles, the
    projectiles achieve devastating effects
    against all target types in any selected
    mode of fuze operation
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    Re: Type 31 Frigate (Inspiration Class) [News Only]

    Post by Tempest414 »

    NickC wrote: 22 Jan 2023, 13:03 A correction to my above post re the 57mm Mk 3 and its 3P projectile, Navy Lookout quotes 2,400 tungsten pellets with 450 gram PBX charge which looks more realistic, 5 grams each? in a well researched article on the 57 mm.

    https://www.navylookout.com/in-focus-th ... -frigates/
    Tempest414 wrote: 22 Jan 2023, 11:36
    Lets not forget that type 31 will also be carrying a Wildcat with 20 LMM

    But we do know is the RN has placed a contract for 57 & 40mm 3P rounds for T31
    We have seen in Ukraine how vulnerable helos are to MANPADS, Stingers/Strela 3/Starstreak etc, would not expect any problem for MANPADS to carried on the Islamic Revolutionary Guard Corps small boats. How much a threat would they pose to a Wildcat?

    What we do know from USN trials is that the 3P is not an effective projectile in the small boat, anti-swarm scenario, why the ORKA and ALaMO projectiles were developed.
    There is a World of different's between firing a MANPAD from a concealed position on land and firing the same weapon from a fast moving and maneuvering small boat against a high speed maneuvering helicopter my guess is you would not see the helicopter let alone get a shot off

    You could try your self if you have pickup tuck standing in the back when it driving around at say 40 MPH and weaving about to miss cones you would be doing well to stand up let alone hold the weapon
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    Re: Type 31 Frigate (Inspiration Class) [News Only]

    Post by donald_of_tokyo »

    NickC wrote: 22 Jan 2023, 11:01...US Navy held a competition for a new projectile specifically for the small boat, anti-swarm scenario, the BAE ORKA lost out to the L3Harris ALaMO smart projectile
    Exactly. Existence of ALaMO is the very important factor of the 57mm gun. It is already fielded in number, not a "pipe-dream" anymore. Also, MADFIRES will be coming, but not yet fielded. Not sure it will be successful though, but USN is investing A LOT there.
    Possible scenario - to be remembered the 57 mm fires only a small lightweight round 13-14 lbs vs 46 lbs of the 4.5" so max effective range is limited ~10 km / 5.4 nm, less than halfway to horizon and the IRGC fleet said to more than 1,000 small craft and say if fitted the 10 km Kornett -EM or equivalent, so debateable if the T31 armed with single 57 mm could fight off swarm attack by 40-50 craft if operating on its own? Will the RN procure the ALaMO.
    I see no good tactics to use 114 mm nor 127 mm non-guided rounds against fast boat swarms. I understand that is deemed to be inefficient. What is more, T31 is there to handle the gray-zone, which will be with very strict ROE. Firing a deadly 114 mm ammo against targets 10 km away is very unlikely to happen. What if they are just a fast fishermen's boat? And, handling fast boats in short range with 240 rpm fire rate with ALaMO rounds is the best way to handle it, I think.

    [EDIT] This means, on paper, using 57 mm guns with ALaMo at 5 km distance will enable 5 times more engagements than a 114 mm gun firing at a distance of 10km (because, rate of fire is 10 times higher, and ALaMO will be virtually "one-shot one-kill"). Yes, ALaMO changes the world. I understand, fast-boat swarm is already a dead tactics. (of course, Iran will try inventing something new, but it another story).

    On the other hand, against drones/slow-UAVs, the proximity rounds added with laser-range-finder assisted FCS shall be very efficient. Even one-shot one-kill. And, again a 114 mm /127 mm gun can only fire at 20-25 rpm, 10 times less than a 57mm gun. The 114/127mm shell is more powerful, but it will not hit 10 UAVs at one shock (because those UAVs will not fly so tightly).

    I understand 1x 57mm and 2x 40mm gun on T31 is much more efficient and effective than any exiting and near future escorts in RN.
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    Re: Type 31 Frigate (Inspiration Class) [News Only]

    Post by NickC »

    Caribbean wrote: 22 Jan 2023, 12:46
      NickC wrote: 22 Jan 2023, 11:01The US Navy trials with the 57mm guns firing the 3P Mk295 rounds on their LCS ships against small craft in the swarm scenario were said to be ineffective
      Well, having seen video of the P3 against small craft, all I can say is that I would not like to be on a "small craft" with one of those firing at me. To render one inoperative, killing the crew would seem pretty effective.

      As for your scenario

      Range of BAE 57mm is given as 16.6km (9nm)
      Effective range - unguided ammunition (assuming 2/3rds of max range) - 11km
      Range of P3 ammunition - > 16.6km (>9nm)
      Horizon at 20m (example radar height) 16km
      Horizon at 2.5 m (crew standing on deck of small craft) - 5.6km

      So, the T-31 will see them 10km before they can see the T-31.
      • At a minimum, it can target the small boat at 11km range (16 with P3). In any sea state where small craft can be used, it will be completely stable.
        The small boat will see the T-31 at 5.6km range. At 50knots, they will have a faceful of spray and be unable to stand upright.
        The small boat will take 6 to 7 minutes to close the gap at 50 knots (much slower if it's anything other than a flat calm), before it can see the T-31. The T-31 could fire an entire magazine of 1000 rounds in that time, if it chooses to.
        The small boat would likely have to close to < 1km and slow almost to walking pace to have any chance of a hit with a shoulder-launched ATGM.
      The T-31 also has two 40mm guns, which could start to engage inside 10-11km and engage effectively with conventional ammunition as they breach the horizon. It also has 50 cal and miniguns that could engage within 1km. US tests showed that a 50 cal could stop a fast boat at 50knot in around 45 seconds.
      A few points

      "Range of BAE 57mm is given as 16.6km (9nm)//Range of P3 ammunition - > 16.6km (>9nm)" that is the theoretical max range with gun firing with barrel at an optimum fixed angle of 45 degrees.

      "Effective range - unguided ammunition (assuming 2/3rds of max range) - 11km" the 3P is an unguided round so would expect would need to fire a very high number of rounds to have a statistical chance of getting on target of a fast moving small craft due the projectiles normal dispersion at that range.

      To overcome these limitations why the 10 km ORKA was designed with a semi-active imaging seeker that can be laser guided or seek its target autonomously by downloading an image of the target prior to firing, its data sheet suggests that the target image is cued from a designating laser and with the ORKA guided projectile correcting its aim via a system of four folding canards. Very limited info on the ALaMO projectile which said to have four firing bolts to correct its aim in flight.

      The Islamic Revolutionary Guard Corps small boats will be operating in the Straits of Hormuz, one of the world's most strategically important choke points only 30 miles wide, they will have land based reconnaissance aircraft able to see T31 long before its able to see the IRGC small boats set up to ambush it.

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      Re: Type 31 Frigate (Inspiration Class) [News Only]

      Post by Ron5 »

      Caribbean wrote: 22 Jan 2023, 12:46
        NickC wrote: 22 Jan 2023, 11:01The US Navy trials with the 57mm guns firing the 3P Mk295 rounds on their LCS ships against small craft in the swarm scenario were said to be ineffective
        Well, having seen video of the P3 against small craft, all I can say is that I would not like to be on a "small craft" with one of those firing at me. To render one inoperative, killing the crew would seem pretty effective.

        As for your scenario

        Range of BAE 57mm is given as 16.6km (9nm)
        Effective range - unguided ammunition (assuming 2/3rds of max range) - 11km
        Range of P3 ammunition - > 16.6km (>9nm)
        Horizon at 20m (example radar height) 16km
        Horizon at 2.5 m (crew standing on deck of small craft) - 5.6km

        So, the T-31 will see them 10km before they can see the T-31.
        • At a minimum, it can target the small boat at 11km range (16 with P3). In any sea state where small craft can be used, it will be completely stable.
          The small boat will see the T-31 at 5.6km range. At 50knots, they will have a faceful of spray and be unable to stand upright.
          The small boat will take 6 to 7 minutes to close the gap at 50 knots (much slower if it's anything other than a flat calm), before it can see the T-31. The T-31 could fire an entire magazine of 1000 rounds in that time, if it chooses to.
          The small boat would likely have to close to < 1km and slow almost to walking pace to have any chance of a hit with a shoulder-launched ATGM.
        The T-31 also has two 40mm guns, which could start to engage inside 10-11km and engage effectively with conventional ammunition as they breach the horizon. It also has 50 cal and miniguns that could engage within 1km. US tests showed that a 50 cal could stop a fast boat at 50knot in around 45 seconds.
        If the frigate can see the small boat, the small boat can see the frigate.

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        Re: Type 31 Frigate (Inspiration Class) [News Only]

        Post by Ron5 »

        donald_of_tokyo wrote: 22 Jan 2023, 14:20
        NickC wrote: 22 Jan 2023, 11:01...US Navy held a competition for a new projectile specifically for the small boat, anti-swarm scenario, the BAE ORKA lost out to the L3Harris ALaMO smart projectile
        Exactly. Existence of ALaMO is the very important factor of the 57mm gun. It is already fielded in number, not a "pipe-dream" anymore. Also, MADFIRES will be coming, but not yet fielded. Not sure it will be successful though, but USN is investing A LOT there.
        Possible scenario - to be remembered the 57 mm fires only a small lightweight round 13-14 lbs vs 46 lbs of the 4.5" so max effective range is limited ~10 km / 5.4 nm, less than halfway to horizon and the IRGC fleet said to more than 1,000 small craft and say if fitted the 10 km Kornett -EM or equivalent, so debateable if the T31 armed with single 57 mm could fight off swarm attack by 40-50 craft if operating on its own? Will the RN procure the ALaMO.
        I see no good tactics to use 114 mm nor 127 mm non-guided rounds against fast boat swarms. I understand that is deemed to be inefficient. What is more, T31 is there to handle the gray-zone, which will be with very strict ROE. Firing a deadly 114 mm ammo against targets 10 km away is very unlikely to happen. What if they are just a fast fishermen's boat? And, handling fast boats in short range with 240 rpm fire rate with ALaMO rounds is the best way to handle it, I think.

        [EDIT] This means, on paper, using 57 mm guns with ALaMo at 5 km distance will enable 5 times more engagements than a 114 mm gun firing at a distance of 10km (because, rate of fire is 10 times higher, and ALaMO will be virtually "one-shot one-kill"). Yes, ALaMO changes the world. I understand, fast-boat swarm is already a dead tactics. (of course, Iran will try inventing something new, but it another story).

        On the other hand, against drones/slow-UAVs, the proximity rounds added with laser-range-finder assisted FCS shall be very efficient. Even one-shot one-kill. And, again a 114 mm /127 mm gun can only fire at 20-25 rpm, 10 times less than a 57mm gun. The 114/127mm shell is more powerful, but it will not hit 10 UAVs at one shock (because those UAVs will not fly so tightly).

        I understand 1x 57mm and 2x 40mm gun on T31 is much more efficient and effective than any exiting and near future escorts in RN.
        Many moons ago, the RN decided helos were the answer to fast boats. And has proved since that it was a good choice. I don't see that anything has materially affected this either way since. Wildcat radar detects hostile small boat many miles from host ship, helo sinks boat with missile or gun. End of story.

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        Re: Type 31 Frigate (Inspiration Class) [News Only]

        Post by Tempest414 »

        The type 31 will also have Info coming to it in the form of MPAs flown by allies in the region and will know of any build up against it
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        Re: Type 31 Frigate (Inspiration Class) [News Only]

        Post by NickC »

        Tempest414 wrote: 22 Jan 2023, 14:45 The type 31 will also have Info coming to it in the form of MPAs flown by allies in the region and will know of any build up against it
        On June 20, 2019, Iran's integrated system of Air Defense Forces shot down a United States RQ-4A Global Hawk BAMS-D surveillance drone with a surface-to-air missile over the Strait of Hormuz.

        https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2019_Iran ... ican_drone

        Don't think anyone is going to risk operating a MPA in the area.
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        Re: Type 31 Frigate (Inspiration Class) [News Only]

        Post by donald_of_tokyo »

        Ron5 wrote: 22 Jan 2023, 14:41Many moons ago, the RN decided helos were the answer to fast boats. And has proved since that it was a good choice. I don't see that anything has materially affected this either way since. Wildcat radar detects hostile small boat many miles from host ship, helo sinks boat with missile or gun. End of story.
        So now with BOTH (up to 2) Wildcats and USN-designed state of the art "57mm with ALaMO" capable, T31 is much more capable in tasks at strait of Hormuz than any of the exiting RN assets.

        I actually think this fact make T31 distinct from T21. T21 was a ship which can do anything in 2nd or 3rd-rated level. T21's
        - ASW was low,
        - NGFS is normal,
        - ASuW was normal,
        - and AAW was miserably low.

        T31's
        - ASW is low (but brand-new torpedo defense makes big sense),
        - NGFS is not required anymore,
        - ASuW is low against frigate level, but the RN's best asset against fast-boat swarm
        - AAW is low against hi-end ASM, but the RN's best asset against UAV drones.

        This is why I say T31 is NOT BAD. It is well designed for their task. Very different from T21, which was not useless, but good for nothing.
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        Re: Type 31 Frigate (Inspiration Class) [News Only]

        Post by Caribbean »

        Ron5 wrote: 22 Jan 2023, 14:37 If the frigate can see the small boat, the small boat can see the frigate.
        Only if we overlook the reality of radar spotting, categorising, course plotting and determining a firing solution for a boat vs the Mk 1 eyeball spotting the tip of a radar mast while being continually hit by spray and being bounced around in a fast boat on anything but a millpond.

        They might, of course, spot the helicopter or drone that picks up their approach while well over the visual horizon.
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        Re: Type 31 Frigate (Inspiration Class) [News Only]

        Post by Tempest414 »

        NickC wrote: 22 Jan 2023, 15:00
        Tempest414 wrote: 22 Jan 2023, 14:45 The type 31 will also have Info coming to it in the form of MPAs flown by allies in the region and will know of any build up against it
        On June 20, 2019, Iran's integrated system of Air Defense Forces shot down a United States RQ-4A Global Hawk BAMS-D surveillance drone with a surface-to-air missile over the Strait of Hormuz.

        https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2019_Iran ... ican_drone

        Don't think anyone is going to risk operating a MPA in the area.
        don't be a twat MPA's operate in the area all day and all night 356 days a year Iran pushed its luck and shot down a drone had that been the P8 that was also operating in the area at the same all hell would of broken out do you really think for one second that the allies are going to let Iran push them out of the straits

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        RichardIC
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        Re: Type 31 Frigate (Inspiration Class) [News Only]

        Post by RichardIC »

        Tempest414 wrote: 22 Jan 2023, 11:36 Lets not forget that type 31 will also be carrying a Wildcat with 20 LMM

        But we do know is the RN has placed a contract for 57 & 40mm 3P rounds for T31
        £65 million contract with BAES in Nov 22 covering 3P, simulation and support.

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        Re: Type 31 Frigate (Inspiration Class) [News Only]

        Post by Ron5 »

        Caribbean wrote: 22 Jan 2023, 16:28
        Ron5 wrote: 22 Jan 2023, 14:37 If the frigate can see the small boat, the small boat can see the frigate.
        Only if we overlook the reality of radar spotting, categorising, course plotting and determining a firing solution for a boat vs the Mk 1 eyeball spotting the tip of a radar mast while being continually hit by spray and being bounced around in a fast boat on anything but a millpond.

        They might, of course, spot the helicopter or drone that picks up their approach while well over the visual horizon.
        Not quite what you said in the original comment but whatever. BTW radar detection equipment can be small & cheap. Ask your local police dept.

        wargame_insomniac
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        Re: Type 31 Frigate (Inspiration Class) [News Only]

        Post by wargame_insomniac »

        donald_of_tokyo wrote: 22 Jan 2023, 15:33
        Ron5 wrote: 22 Jan 2023, 14:41Many moons ago, the RN decided helos were the answer to fast boats. And has proved since that it was a good choice. I don't see that anything has materially affected this either way since. Wildcat radar detects hostile small boat many miles from host ship, helo sinks boat with missile or gun. End of story.
        So now with BOTH (up to 2) Wildcats and USN-designed state of the art "57mm with ALaMO" capable, T31 is much more capable in tasks at strait of Hormuz than any of the exiting RN assets.

        I actually think this fact make T31 distinct from T21. T21 was a ship which can do anything in 2nd or 3rd-rated level. T21's
        - ASW was low,
        - NGFS is normal,
        - ASuW was normal,
        - and AAW was miserably low.

        T31's
        - ASW is low (but brand-new torpedo defense makes big sense),
        - NGFS is not required anymore,
        - ASuW is low against frigate level, but the RN's best asset against fast-boat swarm
        - AAW is low against hi-end ASM, but the RN's best asset against UAV drones.

        This is why I say T31 is NOT BAD. It is well designed for their task. Very different from T21, which was not useless, but good for nothing.
        And that is the T31 as presently understood to be equipped a built.

        Firstly, we have assumed that only 12 CAMM - I hope this number can be increased, quickly and easily increased on handover for outfitting to at least 24, which would double it's endurance in AAW.

        Secondly the RN is acquiring 11 sets of NSM. Clearly in the short term they will be allocated to T45's and T23's. WE know the T26's are fitted with 24 Mark 41 "strike-length VLS" cells, and that is expectd to carry the FC/ASW anti-ship missile. Therefore I think it is no coincidence that the 11 sets ordered will match precisely with 6*T45's and 5*T31s. We know that the Iver Huidfeldt class can carry up to 16*Harpoon Block II SSM - therefore the T31s should easily be able to accomodate the likely 8*NSMs.

        The increase to 24 CAMM and 8 NSM I believe are the two most likeiest upgrades to T31, in terms of low cost considering initial acquisition cost, subsequent upkeep cost, and additional crew requirements.
        (Note the RN would have alreasy bought the NSM - therefore would just be marginal cost of moving them to T31s from T23s, as the T23s are retired).

        Therefore by the time they are actively commissioned into RN, I believe they would have better ASuW and AAW than you have factored in. (Add a sonar and they would be better at ASW also, even if they are never as good as the much more expensive ASW specialist T26s).
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        Re: Type 31 Frigate (Inspiration Class) [News Only]

        Post by mrclark303 »

        wargame_insomniac wrote: 22 Jan 2023, 17:07
        donald_of_tokyo wrote: 22 Jan 2023, 15:33
        Ron5 wrote: 22 Jan 2023, 14:41Many moons ago, the RN decided helos were the answer to fast boats. And has proved since that it was a good choice. I don't see that anything has materially affected this either way since. Wildcat radar detects hostile small boat many miles from host ship, helo sinks boat with missile or gun. End of story.
        So now with BOTH (up to 2) Wildcats and USN-designed state of the art "57mm with ALaMO" capable, T31 is much more capable in tasks at strait of Hormuz than any of the exiting RN assets.

        I actually think this fact make T31 distinct from T21. T21 was a ship which can do anything in 2nd or 3rd-rated level. T21's
        - ASW was low,
        - NGFS is normal,
        - ASuW was normal,
        - and AAW was miserably low.

        T31's
        - ASW is low (but brand-new torpedo defense makes big sense),
        - NGFS is not required anymore,
        - ASuW is low against frigate level, but the RN's best asset against fast-boat swarm
        - AAW is low against hi-end ASM, but the RN's best asset against UAV drones.

        This is why I say T31 is NOT BAD. It is well designed for their task. Very different from T21, which was not useless, but good for nothing.
        And that is the T31 as presently understood to be equipped a built.

        Firstly, we have assumed that only 12 CAMM - I hope this number can be increased, quickly and easily increased on handover for outfitting to at least 24, which would double it's endurance in AAW.

        Secondly the RN is acquiring 11 sets of NSM. Clearly in the short term they will be allocated to T45's and T23's. WE know the T26's are fitted with 24 Mark 41 "strike-length VLS" cells, and that is expectd to carry the FC/ASW anti-ship missile. Therefore I think it is no coincidence that the 11 sets ordered will match precisely with 6*T45's and 5*T31s. We know that the Iver Huidfeldt class can carry up to 16*Harpoon Block II SSM - therefore the T31s should easily be able to accomodate the likely 8*NSMs.

        The increase to 24 CAMM and 8 NSM I believe are the two most likeiest upgrades to T31, in terms of low cost considering initial acquisition cost, subsequent upkeep cost, and additional crew requirements.
        (Note the RN would have alreasy bought the NSM - therefore would just be marginal cost of moving them to T31s from T23s, as the T23s are retired).

        Therefore by the time they are actively commissioned into RN, I believe they would have better ASuW and AAW than you have factored in. (Add a sonar and they would be better at ASW also, even if they are never as good as the much more expensive ASW specialist T26s).
        An excellent hypothesis.....
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        dmereifield
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        Re: Type 31 Frigate (Inspiration Class) [News Only]

        Post by dmereifield »

        They won't have NSM when they're commissioned...
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