Type 31 Frigate (Inspiration Class) [News Only]

Contains threads on Royal Navy equipment of the past, present and future.

What will be the result of the 'Lighter Frigate' programme?

Programme cancelled, RN down to 14 escorts
52
10%
Programme cancelled & replaced with GP T26
14
3%
A number of heavy OPVs spun as "frigates"
127
25%
An LCS-like modular ship
22
4%
A modernised Type 23
24
5%
A Type 26-lite
71
14%
Less than 5 hulls
22
4%
5 hulls
71
14%
More than 5 hulls
103
20%
 
Total votes: 506

donald_of_tokyo
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Re: Type 31 Frigate (Inspiration Class) [News Only]

Post by donald_of_tokyo »

Lord Jim wrote: 22 Dec 2021, 01:33 ... A a large "Gunboat" the T-31 will do this role very well and certainly deter many from using number of small fast vessels to attack any ships being escorted by the Ship. But without additional capabilities ir an increase in existing ones the T-31 will be a bit of a niche platform.
At least, T31 RFI was exactly aiming at "niche" capability to counter fast-boat swarm or alike. T31 being "laser focused" on such kind of tasks is a good thing, I think. It will be more effective than T23 in such situation. Of course, T23ASW has its own task, very important one. So, despite T31 being niche, it is well design for their tasks, I agree.

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Re: Type 31 Frigate (Inspiration Class) [News Only]

Post by Tempest414 »

So in the new Type 31 peace from UKDJ on the 22 Dec they show a new image of a T-31 with a tail deployed and a Merlin on the flight deck

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Re: Type 31 Frigate (Inspiration Class) [News Only]

Post by imperialman »

Tempest414 wrote: 27 Dec 2021, 11:23 So in the new Type 31 peace from UKDJ on the 22 Dec they show a new image of a T-31 with a tail deployed and a Merlin on the flight deck
That image shows Type 31 and its Sonar 2170 towed-body equipment, IIRC.

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Tempest414
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Re: Type 31 Frigate (Inspiration Class) [News Only]

Post by Tempest414 »

imperialman wrote: 27 Dec 2021, 11:41
Tempest414 wrote: 27 Dec 2021, 11:23 So in the new Type 31 peace from UKDJ on the 22 Dec they show a new image of a T-31 with a tail deployed and a Merlin on the flight deck
That image shows Type 31 and its Sonar 2170 towed-body equipment, IIRC.
And is this from babcock or someone else

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imperialman
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Re: Type 31 Frigate (Inspiration Class) [News Only]

Post by imperialman »

Tempest414 wrote: 27 Dec 2021, 12:03
imperialman wrote: 27 Dec 2021, 11:41
Tempest414 wrote: 27 Dec 2021, 11:23 So in the new Type 31 peace from UKDJ on the 22 Dec they show a new image of a T-31 with a tail deployed and a Merlin on the flight deck
That image shows Type 31 and its Sonar 2170 towed-body equipment, IIRC.
And is this from babcock or someone else
Directly from Babcock.

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Tempest414
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Re: Type 31 Frigate (Inspiration Class) [News Only]

Post by Tempest414 »

imperialman wrote: 27 Dec 2021, 12:07
Tempest414 wrote: 27 Dec 2021, 12:03
imperialman wrote: 27 Dec 2021, 11:41
Tempest414 wrote: 27 Dec 2021, 11:23 So in the new Type 31 peace from UKDJ on the 22 Dec they show a new image of a T-31 with a tail deployed and a Merlin on the flight deck
That image shows Type 31 and its Sonar 2170 towed-body equipment, IIRC.
And is this from babcock or someone else
Directly from Babcock.
Many thanks

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Re: Type 31 Frigate (Inspiration Class) [News Only]

Post by JohnM »

imperialman wrote: 27 Dec 2021, 11:41
Tempest414 wrote: 27 Dec 2021, 11:23 So in the new Type 31 peace from UKDJ on the 22 Dec they show a new image of a T-31 with a tail deployed and a Merlin on the flight deck
That image shows Type 31 and its Sonar 2170 towed-body equipment, IIRC.
Nope… apparently it’s a Sea Sentor Towed Torpedo Defence system… what’s also interesting to me is that in one of the images a SSM quad launcher is clearly visible…

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imperialman
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Re: Type 31 Frigate (Inspiration Class) [News Only]

Post by imperialman »

JohnM wrote: 27 Dec 2021, 14:32
imperialman wrote: 27 Dec 2021, 11:41
Tempest414 wrote: 27 Dec 2021, 11:23 So in the new Type 31 peace from UKDJ on the 22 Dec they show a new image of a T-31 with a tail deployed and a Merlin on the flight deck
That image shows Type 31 and its Sonar 2170 towed-body equipment, IIRC.
Nope… apparently it’s a Sea Sentor Towed Torpedo Defence system… what’s also interesting to me is that in one of the images a SSM quad launcher is clearly visible…
S2170 is Sea Sentor. Also, the above is exactly how Babcock described it when they sent the image to be published.

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Re: Type 31 Frigate (Inspiration Class) [News Only]

Post by JohnM »

imperialman wrote: 27 Dec 2021, 14:45
JohnM wrote: 27 Dec 2021, 14:32
imperialman wrote: 27 Dec 2021, 11:41
Tempest414 wrote: 27 Dec 2021, 11:23 So in the new Type 31 peace from UKDJ on the 22 Dec they show a new image of a T-31 with a tail deployed and a Merlin on the flight deck
That image shows Type 31 and its Sonar 2170 towed-body equipment, IIRC.
Nope… apparently it’s a Sea Sentor Towed Torpedo Defence system… what’s also interesting to me is that in one of the images a SSM quad launcher is clearly visible…
S2170 is Sea Sentor. Also, the above is exactly how Babcock described it when they sent me the imagw to publish. :thumbup:
Thank you! That clears that up… please keep up the good work, UKDJ is one of my favorite sites!
Did Babcock mention anything about the quad SAM launcher?

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Re: Type 31 Frigate (Inspiration Class) [News Only]

Post by Tempest414 »

imperialman wrote: 27 Dec 2021, 14:45
JohnM wrote: 27 Dec 2021, 14:32
imperialman wrote: 27 Dec 2021, 11:41
Tempest414 wrote: 27 Dec 2021, 11:23 So in the new Type 31 peace from UKDJ on the 22 Dec they show a new image of a T-31 with a tail deployed and a Merlin on the flight deck
That image shows Type 31 and its Sonar 2170 towed-body equipment, IIRC.
Nope… apparently it’s a Sea Sentor Towed Torpedo Defence system… what’s also interesting to me is that in one of the images a SSM quad launcher is clearly visible…
S2170 is Sea Sentor. Also, the above is exactly how Babcock described it when they sent the image to be published.
This should also put to bed the idea that type 31 has no sub surface defence very good to see. Type 31 is getting there all it needs now is 24 CAMM confirmed and 8 x SSGW and it will be a good global patrol frigate

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Re: Type 31 Frigate (Inspiration Class) [News Only]

Post by Dobbo »

How many MK41 could T31 fit?

Anything in the region of 16+ Would pack a decent and credible punch…

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Re: Type 31 Frigate (Inspiration Class) [News Only]

Post by JohnM »

According to Babcock, 4x8 cells…

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Re: Type 31 Frigate (Inspiration Class) [News Only]

Post by Dobbo »

Plenty of punch… seems a relatively cost effective way of increasing firepower reasonably quickly…

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Re: Type 31 Frigate (Inspiration Class) [News Only]

Post by Jensy »

Dobbo wrote: 27 Dec 2021, 23:29 Plenty of punch… seems a relatively cost effective way of increasing firepower reasonably quickly…
Unfortunately doing so would remove the space currently planned for CAMM. The additional boat bay(s) is/are placed where the Iver Huitfeldts stick their 24 ESSM cells.

Can be solved by integrating CAMM with MK41 (which we have been adverse to doing so far), placing CAMM elsewhere on the ship, or designing a hybrid missile deck like Type 26 with a mixture of, say 16x MK41 and 18x CAMM.

All of which are certain to substantially delay entry to service or create the need for a capability insertion period early in their lives. The Danish added some more modest changes, including the 5" gun after the class had entered service.

Another and far more extreme option could be to focus on building 10 (5+5) Type 32 as a Type 31 replacement and selling off the ships as soon as five Type 32 have entered service. The market is fairly ripe at present.

Personally, if money were there I'd like to go I'd try to bring Type 31 as close to its parent design, in terms of AAW capability, as possible and look to an ASW optimised derivative for Type 32.

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Re: Type 31 Frigate (Inspiration Class) [News Only]

Post by donald_of_tokyo »

imperialman wrote: 27 Dec 2021, 14:45 S2170 is Sea Sentor. Also, the above is exactly how Babcock described it when they sent the image to be published.
The first image was release a few weeks ago, and the SeaSentor decoy launcher on top of the bridge was apparent. The SSM (Harpoon-like) tube is shown in an image, but not in the other image. So I think Babcock is saying it is "fit to receive". Anyway good that space and weight are saved there. The "four boat" image is not clear for me. CG rendering released a few months ago showed only one boat alcove to the port side. As such, "the T31 then" had only 3 boat alcove (and 12 CAMM). It has changed? Or, the forth boat is just there, not deployed from the T31 in the image?

By the way, almost all equipment we are excited here is NOT included in the £1.25B contract for Babcock. CAMM, SeaSentor, SSM. It might be within the £2B program cost of T31, but not sure. Anyway, actually not so many "news" in this image. But, it is always good to see the newest official anything.

Thanks a lot. :D

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Re: Type 31 Frigate (Inspiration Class) [News Only]

Post by Caribbean »

Perhaps one explanation for the four boats is that one of the openings is not just a single boat alcove, but is more a "boat house" that holds two boats to be deployed through the same opening? Just a thought.

I am also interested in the implications behind the picture with the carrier in the background - does that imply a greater level of task force integration that originally envisaged?
The pessimist sees difficulty in every opportunity. The optimist sees the opportunity in every difficulty.
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Re: Type 31 Frigate (Inspiration Class) [News Only]

Post by Tempest414 »

imperialman wrote: 27 Dec 2021, 14:45
JohnM wrote: 27 Dec 2021, 14:32
imperialman wrote: 27 Dec 2021, 11:41
Tempest414 wrote: 27 Dec 2021, 11:23 So in the new Type 31 peace from UKDJ on the 22 Dec they show a new image of a T-31 with a tail deployed and a Merlin on the flight deck
That image shows Type 31 and its Sonar 2170 towed-body equipment, IIRC.
Nope… apparently it’s a Sea Sentor Towed Torpedo Defence system… what’s also interesting to me is that in one of the images a SSM quad launcher is clearly visible…
S2170 is Sea Sentor. Also, the above is exactly how Babcock described it when they sent the image to be published.
These are the bits that standout for me if this is right it puts to bed the idea that type 31 has no sub surface sensors

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Re: Type 31 Frigate (Inspiration Class) [News Only]

Post by Caribbean »

Jensy wrote: 29 Dec 2021, 00:12 Unfortunately doing so would remove the space currently planned for CAMM.
I'm not so sure about that. The IH has room for 32 Mk41, 24 Mk 56 and 16 Harpoon. If you remove the Mk 56, I would say that there is sufficient room in the space allocated to the 32 Mk41s to fit 16 Mk41 and 24 CAMM, in the new, more compact, 6-tube configuration
The pessimist sees difficulty in every opportunity. The optimist sees the opportunity in every difficulty.
Winston Churchill

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Re: Type 31 Frigate (Inspiration Class) [News Only]

Post by SW1 »

Do you need them to do it all? Part of the attraction is the flexibility to configure the space. The inclusion of additional boat bays is likely geared toward there more maritime security role. If future variants or at refit there is a requirement for long range strike capacity in the fleet then boat bays can be traded for missile silos. I suspect there may also be an option for a containerised captas tail as a navy pod in the future.

Mind you I doubt very much these options will be exercised as given the quoted build costs of type 31 people may start to asking questions about type 26 and it’s cost….

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Re: Type 31 Frigate (Inspiration Class) [News Only]

Post by NickC »

Tempest414 wrote: 29 Dec 2021, 11:50
imperialman wrote: 27 Dec 2021, 14:45
JohnM wrote: 27 Dec 2021, 14:32
imperialman wrote: 27 Dec 2021, 11:41
Tempest414 wrote: 27 Dec 2021, 11:23 So in the new Type 31 peace from UKDJ on the 22 Dec they show a new image of a T-31 with a tail deployed and a Merlin on the flight deck
That image shows Type 31 and its Sonar 2170 towed-body equipment, IIRC.
Nope… apparently it’s a Sea Sentor Towed Torpedo Defence system… what’s also interesting to me is that in one of the images a SSM quad launcher is clearly visible…
S2170 is Sea Sentor. Also, the above is exactly how Babcock described it when they sent the image to be published.
These are the bits that standout for me if this is right it puts to bed the idea that type 31 has no sub surface sensors
Your correct it has a sub-surface sensor, a soft kill system for defending against torpedo attack, but as far as know zero capability to detect submarines.

Wikipedia,
The United Kingdom Surface Ship Torpedo Defence (SSTD) system entered into service with the Royal Navy in 2004. The system is produced by Ultra Electronics and is known as S2170 by the Royal Navy and as Sea Sentor in the export market.
The system consists of an acoustic passive towed array, a towed acoustic countermeasure (flexible),a single-drum winch, a processing cabinet,
2 display consoles, 2 expendable acoustic device launchers (1 port, 1 starboard), 16 expendable acoustic devices (8 in each launcher)

The system is a footprint compatible replacement for the AN/SLQ-25 Nixie system previously installed on RN warships. The passive acoustic towed array is specifically designed to detect torpedoes (unlike traditional ASW sonars) and has additional in-built non-acoustic as well as acoustic intercept sensors. Through advanced AI processing it is able to generically identify torpedoes as well as classify specific weapon types and modes and undertake threat evaluation and posturing analysis. The system provides tactical advice dependent upon the specific threat weapon, mode and posture to maximise vessel survivability, which typically involves vessel manoeuvres and also includes the deployment of countermeasures. The countermeasures - both towed and expendable variants - lure the threat away from the vessel in a soft-kill manner.

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Re: Type 31 Frigate (Inspiration Class) [News Only]

Post by Tempest414 »

For me if what we are seeing in terms of the Radar , EO , Sea Sentor , Guns , are right then all we need is 24 to 30 CAMM and 8 x SSGW to finish it off and we will have a good patrol frigate

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Re: Type 31 Frigate (Inspiration Class) [News Only]

Post by Tempest414 »

NickC wrote: 29 Dec 2021, 15:45
Tempest414 wrote: 29 Dec 2021, 11:50
imperialman wrote: 27 Dec 2021, 14:45
JohnM wrote: 27 Dec 2021, 14:32
imperialman wrote: 27 Dec 2021, 11:41
Tempest414 wrote: 27 Dec 2021, 11:23 So in the new Type 31 peace from UKDJ on the 22 Dec they show a new image of a T-31 with a tail deployed and a Merlin on the flight deck
That image shows Type 31 and its Sonar 2170 towed-body equipment, IIRC.
Nope… apparently it’s a Sea Sentor Towed Torpedo Defence system… what’s also interesting to me is that in one of the images a SSM quad launcher is clearly visible…
S2170 is Sea Sentor. Also, the above is exactly how Babcock described it when they sent the image to be published.
These are the bits that standout for me if this is right it puts to bed the idea that type 31 has no sub surface sensors
Your correct it has a sub-surface sensor, a soft kill system for defending against torpedo attack, but as far as know zero capability to detect submarines.

Wikipedia,
The United Kingdom Surface Ship Torpedo Defence (SSTD) system entered into service with the Royal Navy in 2004. The system is produced by Ultra Electronics and is known as S2170 by the Royal Navy and as Sea Sentor in the export market.
The system consists of an acoustic passive towed array, a towed acoustic countermeasure (flexible),a single-drum winch, a processing cabinet,
2 display consoles, 2 expendable acoustic device launchers (1 port, 1 starboard), 16 expendable acoustic devices (8 in each launcher)

The system is a footprint compatible replacement for the AN/SLQ-25 Nixie system previously installed on RN warships. The passive acoustic towed array is specifically designed to detect torpedoes (unlike traditional ASW sonars) and has additional in-built non-acoustic as well as acoustic intercept sensors. Through advanced AI processing it is able to generically identify torpedoes as well as classify specific weapon types and modes and undertake threat evaluation and posturing analysis. The system provides tactical advice dependent upon the specific threat weapon, mode and posture to maximise vessel survivability, which typically involves vessel manoeuvres and also includes the deployment of countermeasures. The countermeasures - both towed and expendable variants - lure the threat away from the vessel in a soft-kill manner.
but it is not its job to hunt Subs and if we want to we can buy a Containerized system and put it in the space below the flight deck but it can defend its self and that is what it needs to do

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Re: Type 31 Frigate (Inspiration Class) [News Only]

Post by JohnM »

Tempest414 wrote: 29 Dec 2021, 15:47 For me if what we are seeing in terms of the Radar , EO , Sea Sentor , Guns , are right then all we need is 24 to 30 CAMM and 8 x SSGW to finish it off and we will have a good patrol frigate
I agree, but I would still add a relatively basic HMS, like the MFS-7000 in T45s, if nothing else for mine detection, since these ships are supposed to be forward deployed and will be tasked with protecting choke points…

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Re: Type 31 Frigate (Inspiration Class) [News Only]

Post by Jensy »

Caribbean wrote: 29 Dec 2021, 13:25 I'm not so sure about that. The IH has room for 32 Mk41, 24 Mk 56 and 16 Harpoon. If you remove the Mk 56, I would say that there is sufficient room in the space allocated to the 32 Mk41s to fit 16 Mk41 and 24 CAMM, in the new, more compact, 6-tube configuration
That would be a pretty effective fit if it could be done and not require taking a cutting torch to a brand new frigate.

I was basing my assumption on the below video (at 0:29) and the large scale model that's been at DSEI and other show:


Now of course it's just marketing content and should be taken with a heavy dose of salt, however I would appear that the additional boat bays (still unsure of numbers) take up the space for the MK.56. Curiously though the Harpoon launchers look as if they're in the wrong place, I comparison to HDMS Peter Willemoes below.

Image
Caribbean wrote: 29 Dec 2021, 09:42 Perhaps one explanation for the four boats is that one of the openings is not just a single boat alcove, but is more a "boat house" that holds two boats to be deployed through the same opening? Just a thought.
Had a similar thought myself. With all the clever boat handling equipment available today, you'd think they could make more efficient use of the space.
Caribbean wrote: 29 Dec 2021, 09:42 I am also interested in the implications behind the picture with the carrier in the background - does that imply a greater level of task force integration that originally envisaged?
Image

Fantastic image, especially those deck launchers just visible.

From my decidedly ill-informed perspective, I'd say if there is a desire to grow the fleet in size and 'lethality' , Type 31 has more latent, untapped potential then any Royal Navy escort class in a very long time.

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Re: Type 31 Frigate (Inspiration Class) [News Only]

Post by donald_of_tokyo »

Caribbean wrote: 29 Dec 2021, 13:25 ... sufficient room in the space allocated to the 32 Mk41s to fit 16 Mk41 and 24 CAMM, in the new, more compact, 6-tube configuration
I also thought about this, but, can CAMM mushroom (in truth, AFTER taking off the mushroom hat) tolerate the blast of Mk.41 VLS located aside? We know if they are ~2 m apart, it is doable, as we see in T26 case.

If any Mk.41 VLS to be added to T31, I guess CAMM launcher shall move a bit forward. If it is 24-cells, I think the design of "24-cell CAMM on top of the T26's mission bay" can be reused here? (6-cell module aligned to the beam).

# One thing to note. Harpoon SSM weighs 691 kg including booster. Eight of them is 5.5 tonnes (excluding the canister and support structure). CAMM is 99 km per unit. 24 of them is only 2.4 tonnes . Anywhere if you can located 8 Harpoons, you can locate 24 CAMM. Of course, the housing/structure weighs, but it is all about how you design it.
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