Type 31 Frigate (Inspiration Class) [News Only]

Contains threads on Royal Navy equipment of the past, present and future.

What will be the result of the 'Lighter Frigate' programme?

Programme cancelled, RN down to 14 escorts
52
10%
Programme cancelled & replaced with GP T26
14
3%
A number of heavy OPVs spun as "frigates"
127
25%
An LCS-like modular ship
22
4%
A modernised Type 23
24
5%
A Type 26-lite
71
14%
Less than 5 hulls
22
4%
5 hulls
71
14%
More than 5 hulls
103
20%
 
Total votes: 506

NickC
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Re: Type 31 Frigate (Inspiration Class) [News Only]

Post by NickC »

Jdam wrote: 05 Mar 2022, 13:52 Due to recent events I've heard people asking for the MK41 and sonar to added to the Type 31. At what point does it make more sense to carry on with the Type 26 instead?
When fighting a war the numbers of ships are of critical importance and the way to achieve that was to keep size and cost to the practical minimum.

The T26 which grew like topsy till approx twice the size of a T23, one third larger than a T31 and that costs plus T26 as with the T23 designed as very quiet ships needed for their ASW mission which adds additional large costs, HED etc, etc.

Bottom line expect T26 platform costing twice if not more than a T31 before weapons and sensors added (Donald-san mention of approx £750 million each for T26 Batch II build).

PS V.Adm Gardner Director General Ships at Defence Equipment and Support interview four months ago said "T26 very, very complex, necessarily so for high end ASW, densely engineered, very, very expensive but wasn't something that could be afforded and sustained to deliver for the long term".

Caribbean
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Re: Type 31 Frigate (Inspiration Class) [News Only]

Post by Caribbean »

dmereifield wrote: 06 Mar 2022, 07:41 No, apologies. To bring it back on track slightly...the T31's will be more spikey. We'll see at least24 CAMM and some ASM's. Question is when, in build or shortly after...
My personal feeling is that the first five will be built to what we believe is the "existing spec" (whatever that really is), a) because it's a fixed contract and b) simply to give the workforce time to develop skills and experience. If more money becomes available, then these hulls are most likely to be upgraded in a follow-on contract (I would be happy to be proved wrong on that :) ), possibly immediately after delivery. It would be nice to see an extra hull or three as a follow-up order, as well, pending the roll-out of the T32 project. Some of the initial batch may never be upgraded, of course, as there is still a need for a "heavy" patrol vessel for certain theatres
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Poiuytrewq
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Re: Type 31 Frigate (Inspiration Class) [News Only]

Post by Poiuytrewq »

NickC wrote: 06 Mar 2022, 10:45 £750 million each for T26 Batch II build
Only if the number stays at eight. If more funds are allocated in the budget for additional ASW capacity RN will face a dilemma. Plenty of options but no quick fixes:

1. Upgrade T31’s with hull mounted sonar and Captas 2 or 4.
2. Additional batch of P8.
3. Additional batch of T26.
4. Additional batch of SSN
5. Large procurement of XLUUV’s
6. Extend decommissioning date for T23 ASW’s

Clearly, upgrading the T31’s and procuring more P8’s are the only realistic options if the difference is to be felt in the next decade.

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ArmChairCivvy
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Re: Type 31 Frigate (Inspiration Class) [News Only]

Post by ArmChairCivvy »

Poiuytrewq wrote: 06 Mar 2022, 15:38 if the difference is to be felt in the next decade.
I would say from 2027/28 onwards. Decisions 'now'...on the double
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Scimitar54
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If everyone is thinking the same, then someone is not thinking (attributed to Patton)

Jake1992
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Re: Type 31 Frigate (Inspiration Class) [News Only]

Post by Jake1992 »

Poiuytrewq wrote: 06 Mar 2022, 15:38
NickC wrote: 06 Mar 2022, 10:45 £750 million each for T26 Batch II build
Only if the number stays at eight. If more funds are allocated in the budget for additional ASW capacity RN will face a dilemma. Plenty of options but no quick fixes:

1. Upgrade T31’s with hull mounted sonar and Captas 2 or 4.
2. Additional batch of P8.
3. Additional batch of T26.
4. Additional batch of SSN
5. Large procurement of XLUUV’s
6. Extend decommissioning date for T23 ASW’s

Clearly, upgrading the T31’s and procuring more P8’s are the only realistic options if the difference is to be felt in the next decade.
IMO all of the above is needed really, and with the DSC publicly stating a rise to 3% is needed along with other major European powers increasing defence spending we might just see the funding happen with the political pressure mounting.

For me if 3% does happen we should be looking at 30 “escorts” being the aim by late 2030s with a make up of 18 tier 1 and 12 tier 2.

The tier 2s should be made up of 6 T31s and 6 T32s -
The T31 being of current design but in full fat set ie HMS 24 CAMM and MK41s
The T32s IMO should be a multi role vessel capable of operating unmanned systems, RM raiding / special forces missions. They should be similar to the Absalon design or UXV design for this.

Jdam
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Re: Type 31 Frigate (Inspiration Class) [News Only]

Post by Jdam »

Isn't 3% like 50% more than we currently spend?

If it happens this is a political move and a reaction to Russia, we might all agree that any war will result in the 3rd battle of the Atlantic but does the public know that and would putting more money into the navy comfort the public? A political move would be a reaction to the current crisis on the ground and see money put into troop numbers and maybe (hopefully) tanks.

Maybe I am just jaded with years of cuts and spin to see any real chance of any meaningful increase :problem:

Jake1992
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Re: Type 31 Frigate (Inspiration Class) [News Only]

Post by Jake1992 »

Jdam wrote: 06 Mar 2022, 17:27 Isn't 3% like 50% more than we currently spend?

If it happens this is a political move and a reaction to Russia, we might all agree that any war will result in the 3rd battle of the Atlantic but does the public know that and would putting more money into the navy comfort the public? A political move would be a reaction to the current crisis on the ground and see money put into troop numbers and maybe (hopefully) tanks.

Maybe I am just jaded with years of cuts and spin to see any real chance of any meaningful increase :problem:
It depends on what figures are used Iv seen we currently spend anywhere between 2.2% and 2.6% so it would be between a 20% to 40% odd increase and I doubt it’s happen over 1 years more likely over 3-5 years.

As for where it’s spent, increases are needed across all 3 services but we are traditionally a naval power not a land one.

Poiuytrewq
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Re: Type 31 Frigate (Inspiration Class) [News Only]

Post by Poiuytrewq »

Jake1992 wrote: 06 Mar 2022, 16:59 The tier 2s should be made up of 6 T31s and 6 T32s
What is a T32? It’s a pipe dream currently?

If the budget increases and time is of the essence much better to increase the production rates of T26 and T31 programmes by building as efficiently as possible.

Jdam
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Re: Type 31 Frigate (Inspiration Class) [News Only]

Post by Jdam »

The T32 were a cut today with the promise of something to replace it tomorrow. :yawn:

We have 2 open escort production lines (a miracle if you think about it) time to dismiss the T32s and increase our escort numbers.

Jake1992
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Re: Type 31 Frigate (Inspiration Class) [News Only]

Post by Jake1992 »

Poiuytrewq wrote: 06 Mar 2022, 18:51
Jake1992 wrote: 06 Mar 2022, 16:59 The tier 2s should be made up of 6 T31s and 6 T32s
What is a T32? It’s a pipe dream currently?

If the budget increases and time is of the essence much better to increase the production rates of T26 and T31 programmes by building as efficiently as possible.
I tend to agree but if the T32s are to happen then the above is what I believe they should be.
Jdam wrote: 06 Mar 2022, 19:26 The T32 were a cut today with the promise of something to replace it tomorrow. :yawn:

We have 2 open escort production lines (a miracle if you think about it) time to dismiss the T32s and increase our escort numbers.
Where was that announced Iv seen nothing of them being cancelled ?

Jdam
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Re: Type 31 Frigate (Inspiration Class) [News Only]

Post by Jdam »

We retired/retiring our mine sweeper fleet one a year over the next ten till the type 32 comes along. I believe the idea of the Type 32 is a home bass for drones for mine sweeping and so on. Since then I believe the retirement of the our mine sweepers have been sped up.

wargame_insomniac
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Re: Type 31 Frigate (Inspiration Class) [News Only]

Post by wargame_insomniac »

Currently we expect the 5*T32 to be built in the same way as the 5*T31 but just with different mission modules o be able to act home ship for drones and USV for minehunting and special forces.

So whether you want to call them as T32 or T31 Batch 2, the intention is for them to be built in the same way. So they will be maximising production efficiencies by the time they come onto hulls 6-10.

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Tempest414
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Re: Type 31 Frigate (Inspiration Class) [News Only]

Post by Tempest414 »

Type 26 could be speeded up with 2 extra hulls being built and at the same time 5 extra type 31's should be built.

The batch 1 Type 31's should be built as contracted with 24 CAMM and then have 16 Mk-41 and HMS fitted after handover the Batch 2's should be fitted from the start with HMS , 127mm , 24 Mk-41's , 24 CAMM plus maybe a palfinger system under the flight deck

Scimitar54
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Re: Type 31 Frigate (Inspiration Class) [News Only]

Post by Scimitar54 »

Don’t see the point of a different number of Mk-41 VLS Cells between batches 1 (and hopefully) 2.
Why would you not go for the consistent approach with 24 x Mk-41 for both ?

donald_of_tokyo
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Re: Type 31 Frigate (Inspiration Class) [News Only]

Post by donald_of_tokyo »

T31 is a fixed contract. It is also well stated that, not changing the contract under build it essential for cost control.

No one knows how the Mk.41 VLS and CAMM will be handled, but I guess 24 or 32 Mk41 VLS is not easy, as there are CAMM mushrooms for sure.

On the other hand, adding a hull mounted sonar might be easier. At least from RFI, it is "Fit to receive". So, space is already allocated there. (FTR is also for canister SSM).

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Re: Type 31 Frigate (Inspiration Class) [News Only]

Post by Scimitar54 »

Hi Donald,

No one was even suggesting a change to the (fixed) contract !

Batch 1 ??? Mk-41 and HMS to be fitted AFTER handover/acceptance/commissioning.

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Re: Type 31 Frigate (Inspiration Class) [News Only]

Post by SW1 »

You could put a towed sonar in a navy pod!

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ArmChairCivvy
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Re: Type 31 Frigate (Inspiration Class) [News Only]

Post by ArmChairCivvy »

We can always modify them to the Danish std (tongue in the cheek): ABM and all that
- but why do it during the build; much more fun to be cutting thru the work just completed. Like the flexible carriers would have needed 2000 water-tight compartments to be modified, to go back to the fixed wing arrangement? The original design, was it
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Lord Jim
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Re: Type 31 Frigate (Inspiration Class) [News Only]

Post by Lord Jim »

Very good! :D

Scimitar54
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Re: Type 31 Frigate (Inspiration Class) [News Only]

Post by Scimitar54 »

Perhaps you would prefer a further reduction in escort numbers then, as a consequence of slowed, (or very much slowed) build and therefore much increased cost, rather than being able to choose your moment and best fit the strategic situation. T23 CANNOT go on for ever ….. even with the expensive (and unnecessary) re-fits that would be the likely result. :mrgreen:

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Re: Type 31 Frigate (Inspiration Class) [News Only]

Post by Lord Jim »

Not fitting such improvements during the build may keep costs down but it adds significant costs further alone the ships service life. Yet again we would have the MoD fixate on short savings at the expense of increases later on, a story repeated time adn time again, and to be honest the MoD's ability to modernise and existing platforms is not the best at the moment, and such refits take many months so not really useful when even spiral like Ukraine. If anything the current war in Ukraine has shown clearly to fight with what you have as you may only have an advance notice measured in days.
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Re: Type 31 Frigate (Inspiration Class) [News Only]

Post by Scimitar54 »

Nothing I can disagree with, but if the MOD (and the contractors that it uses) are “not fit for purpose”, then major changes MUST be made.

We need to find (and require those whose task it is to organise what is required) to find Solutions to the problems encountered and not to find reasons for not doing so. Anyone (or any process) that does not (or will not) do that needs rapid replacement. :mrgreen:

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Re: Type 31 Frigate (Inspiration Class) [News Only]

Post by Tempest414 »

Scimitar54 wrote: 07 Mar 2022, 13:18 Don’t see the point of a different number of Mk-41 VLS Cells between batches 1 (and hopefully) 2.
Why would you not go for the consistent approach with 24 x Mk-41 for both ?
I would be more than happy to both batch 1 & 2 type 31 fitted with 24 Mk-41's I would also very happy if the batch 1 were extended to 8 ships and then Babcock went on to build 3 full on IH class under the type 32 banner fitted with type 45 CMS and radar and armed with 32 Aster 30 , 24 CAMM , 1 x 57mm , 2 x 40mm , 8 x NSM . this could allow 4 Type 31's each side of Suez and if we built a 9th type 26 and a light carrier we could have 3 carrier groups of 1 carrier , 2 AAW , 2 ASW ships leaving 3 AAW and ASW ships .

As said before if Type 31's were fitted with 24 CAMM & 24 Mk-41 we could see the type 31's armed with 24 CAMM , 32 CAMM-ER and 16 Tomahawk Blk-V meaning 3 ships coming together could be armed with 62 CAMM , 96 CAMM-ER and 48 Tomahawk missiles making them a very real strike group

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Re: Type 31 Frigate (Inspiration Class) [News Only]

Post by SW1 »

Tempest414 wrote: 08 Mar 2022, 11:45
Scimitar54 wrote: 07 Mar 2022, 13:18 Don’t see the point of a different number of Mk-41 VLS Cells between batches 1 (and hopefully) 2.
Why would you not go for the consistent approach with 24 x Mk-41 for both ?
I would be more than happy to both batch 1 & 2 type 31 fitted with 24 Mk-41's I would also very happy if the batch 1 were extended to 8 ships and then Babcock went on to build 3 full on IH class under the type 32 banner fitted with type 45 CMS and radar and armed with 32 Aster 30 , 24 CAMM , 1 x 57mm , 2 x 40mm , 8 x NSM . this could allow 4 Type 31's each side of Suez and if we built a 9th type 26 and a light carrier we could have 3 carrier groups of 1 carrier , 2 AAW , 2 ASW ships leaving 3 AAW and ASW ships .

As said before if Type 31's were fitted with 24 CAMM & 24 Mk-41 we could see the type 31's armed with 24 CAMM , 32 CAMM-ER and 16 Tomahawk Blk-V meaning 3 ships coming together could be armed with 62 CAMM , 96 CAMM-ER and 48 Tomahawk missiles making them a very real strike group
Wonder how many of the said ships configured as mentioned we could of bought for 17b quid we’ve spent buying 2 aircraft carriers and 48 f35. As a comparison strike group.
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ArmChairCivvy
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Re: Type 31 Frigate (Inspiration Class) [News Only]

Post by ArmChairCivvy »

Now, now...
F-35 is a joint asset. So call it (17-6)/2 +6
... a baker's dozen, then
Ever-lasting truths: Multi-year budgets/ planning by necessity have to address the painful questions; more often than not the Either-Or prevails over Both-And.
If everyone is thinking the same, then someone is not thinking (attributed to Patton)

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