Type 31 Frigate (Inspiration Class) [News Only]

Contains threads on Royal Navy equipment of the past, present and future.

What will be the result of the 'Lighter Frigate' programme?

Programme cancelled, RN down to 14 escorts
52
10%
Programme cancelled & replaced with GP T26
14
3%
A number of heavy OPVs spun as "frigates"
127
25%
An LCS-like modular ship
22
4%
A modernised Type 23
24
5%
A Type 26-lite
71
14%
Less than 5 hulls
22
4%
5 hulls
71
14%
More than 5 hulls
103
20%
 
Total votes: 506

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Tempest414
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Re: Type 31 Frigate (Inspiration Class) [News Only]

Post by Tempest414 »

SW1 wrote: 08 Mar 2022, 11:56
Tempest414 wrote: 08 Mar 2022, 11:45
Scimitar54 wrote: 07 Mar 2022, 13:18 Don’t see the point of a different number of Mk-41 VLS Cells between batches 1 (and hopefully) 2.
Why would you not go for the consistent approach with 24 x Mk-41 for both ?
I would be more than happy to both batch 1 & 2 type 31 fitted with 24 Mk-41's I would also very happy if the batch 1 were extended to 8 ships and then Babcock went on to build 3 full on IH class under the type 32 banner fitted with type 45 CMS and radar and armed with 32 Aster 30 , 24 CAMM , 1 x 57mm , 2 x 40mm , 8 x NSM . this could allow 4 Type 31's each side of Suez and if we built a 9th type 26 and a light carrier we could have 3 carrier groups of 1 carrier , 2 AAW , 2 ASW ships leaving 3 AAW and ASW ships .

As said before if Type 31's were fitted with 24 CAMM & 24 Mk-41 we could see the type 31's armed with 24 CAMM , 32 CAMM-ER and 16 Tomahawk Blk-V meaning 3 ships coming together could be armed with 62 CAMM , 96 CAMM-ER and 48 Tomahawk missiles making them a very real strike group
Wonder how many of the said ships configured as mentioned we could of bought for 17b quid we’ve spent buying 2 aircraft carriers and 48 f35. As a comparison strike group.
Well had we added the 8 billion from type 26 in as well to make 25 billion we could of built 30 plus type 26's fitted with 48 Mk-41s allowing them to carry 64 CAMM/ CAMM-ER , 32 Spear 3 & 24 Tomahawk BlkV with 32 ships we could have 12 east of Suez and 20 in the home fleet allowing for 8 divisions of 4 ships with a division capable of carrying 256 CAMM , 128 Spear 3 & 96 Tomahawk

Edit each division could also carry 8 ASW Helicopters plus 8 MCM USV's
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Anthony58
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Re: Type 31 Frigate (Inspiration Class) [News Only]

Post by Anthony58 »

Where are you going to find the crew?

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Re: Type 31 Frigate (Inspiration Class) [News Only]

Post by serge750 »

Press gangs - he he !!!

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Tempest414
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Re: Type 31 Frigate (Inspiration Class) [News Only]

Post by Tempest414 »

Anthony58 wrote: 08 Mar 2022, 18:25 Where are you going to find the crew?
Well if the 2 carriers had not been built there would be 1800 more crew or 12 type 26 crews however this was just a what if

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Re: Type 31 Frigate (Inspiration Class) [News Only]

Post by Anthony58 »

Well both carriers were built and are part of the Royal Navy, you need a balanced force, yes the the Royal Navy needs more destroyers and frigates, but it will take time. The Royal Navy over time could have more personnel, don't forget the time taken to build skills and experience. I doubt over the next twenty years, we would be able to recruit nowhere enough personnel, to build the numbers of warships, that you post on a regular basis, on this board.

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Re: Type 31 Frigate (Inspiration Class) [News Only]

Post by Lord Jim »

lets not go down the "What if we hadn't bought the Carriers", route please at least not on this thread.
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Tempest414
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Re: Type 31 Frigate (Inspiration Class) [News Only]

Post by Tempest414 »

Anthony58 wrote: 08 Mar 2022, 23:56 Well both carriers were built and are part of the Royal Navy, you need a balanced force, yes the the Royal Navy needs more destroyers and frigates, but it will take time and the Royal Navy over time could have more personnel, building skills and experience, but nowhere near the numbers of warships, that you post on a regular basis, on this board.
No shit

You say you need a balanced force but we are no were near a balanced force and at this time we are 27 billion down when you take the carrier program including the F35 and type 26 /31 and for the same money and crew we could have built and crewed 25 Type 26's and two 240 x 45 meter LHD's for 20 billion and still had 7 odd billion to buy 20 or so f-35b

Anthony58
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Re: Type 31 Frigate (Inspiration Class) [News Only]

Post by Anthony58 »

That is history, moving on, we need to be realistic, on an enlarged future fleet size, as well as the same enlargement for the Royal Air Force, the limit is personnel numbers.

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Tempest414
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Re: Type 31 Frigate (Inspiration Class) [News Only]

Post by Tempest414 »

Anthony58 wrote: 09 Mar 2022, 09:28 That is history, moving on, we need to be realistic, on an enlarged future fleet size, as well as the same enlargement for the Royal Air Force, the limit is personnel numbers.
I would agree and first thing to do is max out the capability of the ships we are building like fitting say 32 VLS to type 31 this would allow it to carry up to 32 CAMM , 32, Spear 3 , 16 Tomahawk missiles now this might not be possible until they are delivered next the enlargement of the fleet may come from type 32 However this really needs to be a type 31 as I have laid out to keep costs as low as possible I do believe there should be a 9th type 26

As said up thread for me the best way to enlarge the fleet with teeth would be to build 8 type 31's and then build 3 full on type 32 the same as the IH class this would leave us with

9 AAW ships
8 ASW ships
8 GP ships

an increase of 6 ships over the fleet we now have and 1 more over the RN's plan if it gets type 32

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Re: Type 31 Frigate (Inspiration Class) [News Only]

Post by Poiuytrewq »

Tempest414 wrote: 09 Mar 2022, 11:09 …max out the capability of the ships we are building….
Based on where the world finds itself today and considering the global presence role the RB2’s are currently conducting, what justification does the MOD now have to introduce such an under-armed vessel such as the T31?

IMO there simply is no need for such a lightly armed RN patrol vessel. As many have always suggested the T23 GP replacements need to be at least as capable as the vessels they are replacing.

If there is any uplift to defence spending in the Spring Statement an additional £750m added to the T31 programme budget is now essential IMO. An extra £150m per hull would really allow this class to become what they really ought to have been from the beginning.

Maximising the T31’s is only maintaining what RN currently has. To return the escort fleet back to where it should be the T32’s or additional T26’s need to plug the hole left by the scrapping of the T22’s. That will require another £3bn to £4bn. Hard to see an uplift like that without increasing defence spending to 3% GDP.
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Re: Type 31 Frigate (Inspiration Class) [News Only]

Post by jedibeeftrix »

What chance of an early transfer of T31 to Poland?

It was intended for these ships to have a short life for industrial drumbeat reasons - which presumes and early resale.

SW1
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Re: Type 31 Frigate (Inspiration Class) [News Only]

Post by SW1 »

jedibeeftrix wrote: 09 Mar 2022, 14:05 What chance of an early transfer of T31 to Poland?

It was intended for these ships to have a short life for industrial drumbeat reasons - which presumes and early resale.
Thought they wanted to build there own
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JohnM
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Re: Type 31 Frigate (Inspiration Class) [News Only]

Post by JohnM »

They ARE building their own…
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Re: Type 31 Frigate (Inspiration Class) [News Only]

Post by donald_of_tokyo »

Poland just selected Babcock as a preferred bidder, who bid with a proposal to build A140 frigates locally in Poland. If we stick to being "correct", it shall be notes as such? What is starting next is all the negotiations...
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NickC
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Re: Type 31 Frigate (Inspiration Class) [News Only]

Post by NickC »

Looking at the BL-NL MCM programme of 12 ~< 3,000t ships with their large 18t USVs and four different UUVs, ships fitted with the Bofors 40mm Mk4 same as the T31, using the Thales NS54 variant of the NS50 X-band radar for the FCR for the 40mm gun.

Of interest was the comment from Hugo Anbeek of Thales who said “That is an area where X-band radars excels over S-band radars because you have better performance against surface target, you have a better overall accuracy and resolution. For sure, we imagine NS50 being used in such a role for larger ships. We also see NS50 as a possible secondary radar, completing a NS100 [as fitted to the T31] or NS200 [both S-band]"

This would seem to imply the T31 fire control for its Bofors 57mm and 40mm guns will not be the best if using the NS100 ?, have seen no mention of which fire control system used for the T31 guns.

PS Re NS50 " X-band radar has the capability to detect and track low-flying, high-speed, small Radar Cross Section anti-ship missile targets in heavy clutter environments… // “This is what makes the NS50 unique, it is a game changer. We bring dual performances in a single radar: Both surveillance and fire control. This is more affordable for the navies in terms of procurement. It also has advantages in terms of foot print and performances”

Feb 21
https://www.navalnews.com/naval-news/20 ... all-sizes/

Caribbean
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Re: Type 31 Frigate (Inspiration Class) [News Only]

Post by Caribbean »

Both NS100 and 200 come with an integral X-band Scout Mk3 FMCW radar for LPI and high resolution surface surveillance out to about 25km. It looks as if the NS50 is the 3D version of that (with longer range). It looks like it would be a good complement to the NS100 and might pair up well with CAMM
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Re: Type 31 Frigate (Inspiration Class) [News Only]

Post by NickC »

Caribbean wrote: 16 Mar 2022, 15:23 Both NS100 and 200 come with an integral X-band Scout Mk3 FMCW radar for LPI and high resolution surface surveillance out to about 25km. It looks as if the NS50 is the 3D version of that (with longer range). It looks like it would be a good complement to the NS100 and might pair up well with CAMM
Thanks for your info.
Would note X-band signal if conditions favourable can extend a few km beyond horizon whereas S-band signal bends slightly upwards at the horizon, so X-band could give you additional vital few seconds in detecting attack by a sea skimming anti-ship missile.
Presuming partly why Hugo Anbeek Thales made his comment and also that X-band has higher frequency/defrinition than S-band "That is an area where X-band radars excels over S-band radars because you have better performance against surface target, you have a better overall accuracy and resolution"
Expect Scout Mk3 2D only a fraction of the cost of a NS50 which can electronically scan with Thales new dual axis multi-beam technology enabling it to spend more time on target to more effectively see and measure the it, expect other companies offer equivalent options.

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Re: Type 31 Frigate (Inspiration Class) [News Only]

Post by Caribbean »

Must admit that I was thinking of function, rather than technology, but you are right, of course, the NS50 is entirely different technology, akin to NS100 - the major benefit of FMCW is the extremely low probability of intercept (maximum power is 3 watts in a multi-frequency "chirp"), so it can be used for covert surface and low-level air surveillance (and the high resolution is good for small targets, like drones)
The pessimist sees difficulty in every opportunity. The optimist sees the opportunity in every difficulty.
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Jensy
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Re: Type 31 Frigate (Inspiration Class) [News Only]

Post by Jensy »

Latest on Polish Type 31:



Only a CGI, and not even of a UK spec Type 31, so wouldn't want to read too much into it... however that forward boat bay looks considerably larger than the rear one - something I don't think we've seen previously.

Image

(On a second look I think the rear boat bay has been shortened, rather than the forward bay being stretched).

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Re: Type 31 Frigate (Inspiration Class) [News Only]

Post by SW1 »

Jensy wrote: 08 Apr 2022, 12:16 Latest on Polish Type 31:



Only a CGI, and not even of a UK spec Type 31, so wouldn't want to read too much into it... however that forward boat bay looks considerably larger than the rear one - something I don't think we've seen previously.

Image

(On a second look I think the rear boat bay has been shortened, rather than the forward bay being stretched).
Looks very similar to the US constellation class configuration

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Re: Type 31 Frigate (Inspiration Class) [News Only]

Post by wargame_insomniac »

Jensy wrote: 08 Apr 2022, 12:16 Latest on Polish Type 31:



Only a CGI, and not even of a UK spec Type 31, so wouldn't want to read too much into it... however that forward boat bay looks considerably larger than the rear one - something I don't think we've seen previously.

Image
A lot closer to well armed General Purpose design that Uk version should have been.

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Re: Type 31 Frigate (Inspiration Class) [News Only]

Post by Dobbo »

It might yet be that in time - frustrating that it is not from the start, but the present crisis hopefully demonstrates and reminds politicians of the value of deterrence (by which I mean conventional deterrence). Increasing the lethality of the RN including via the T31 is one way of doing that.
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Re: Type 31 Frigate (Inspiration Class) [News Only]

Post by Lord Jim »

Fully agree, the offensive capability of the Royal Navy's Escorts needs to be a priority, possibly using UORs to obtain kit like an interim AShM to replace the existing Harpoon on the T-23, T-26, T-45 and T-31. This should be for more then one set per ship, so a figure of around 350 should be the starting point. If the FCASW missile is compatible with the Nk41 and Sylver VLS it will be able to initially compliment the interim missile , while will most likely be canister launched, and eventually replace it.
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Re: Type 31 Frigate (Inspiration Class) [News Only]

Post by Tempest414 »

Yes buy 1 set of 8 for each type 23, 31 & 45 as type 23 is replaced transfer over to type 32 and as type 45 is replaced transfer over to type 31 so type 31 ends up with 16 missiles

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Re: Type 31 Frigate (Inspiration Class) [News Only]

Post by JohnM »

I’d be happy with 1 set for each T45 and 5 sets for the T23, which would then be transferred to T31…

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